Case Keenum

[J. Kapp 11]

It's interesting ... this thread is about Case Keenum, and if we can't agree that he had a GREAT 2017 season, then the conversation ends with me right there. He was an MVP candidate, plain and simple. Not the MVP, but a candidate. Go back and watch the highlights. He did things that season that Kirk Cousins has never done and never will do. It's just a fact. It's easy to linger on the so-called lucky plays. Go back and watch all the great plays, great throws, great reads, and great scrambles to move the chains (talking about picking up first downs with his legs). It's all there on YouTube. Sorry PHP, but you can't tell me, with any sort of intellectual honesty, that he didn't play his a$$ off in 2017.

So ... was 2017 an outlier? Would Keenum have been as good under somebody other than Shurmur? I think you have a point there -- I won't concede a "win," but a definite point. Pat Shurmur has always been a coach who tailors his offense to his players' strengths, rather than trying to shoehorn players into a system. He set Keenum up for success, no doubt. Even though any talk about what Keenum WOULD HAVE DONE or WOULD NOT HAVE DONE is pure speculation, it's not a bad argument.

But in my opinion, the real point of this conversation isn't Case Keenum at all. It's Kirk Cousins.

Nobody would even be mentioning the name Case Keenum if Kirk Cousins were doing what the Vikings paid him to do. Cousins has a reputation for piling up empty stats -- this year, he doesn't even have the stats. He's not doing his job, and he'd be the first to admit it. I mean, for crying out loud, the man apologized to Adam Thielen in a podcast. Do we really want the leader of our football team doing something like that in public? Mike Zimmer doesn't.

You say Cousins' contract isn't hurting the Vikings. I couldn't disagree more. The problem isn't the amount. It's the fact that all the money is fully guaranteed. What happens if Cousins is as bad the next month or six weeks as he was against Chicago? Think it can't happen? Look at the schedule. At KC. At Dallas. At Seattle. At Detroit, which just gave Patrick Mahomes all he could handle. What then? WE CAN'T CUT HIM. We can't move on. The dead money would kill us. We can't realistically even bench him. We're on the hook for $29.5 million this season and $30 million next season. That's about a sixth of the cap. Don't mean to go back to Keenum, but if we were paying Case 18-20 million dollars, you don't think that $10 million would make a difference? Maybe we could have made a play for one of the top O-linemen who were available.

Again, if Cousins were playing lights out, the contract wouldn't matter. But when he's taking up a sixth of our cap space and playing as the 31st ranked QB in the league, it's a big, big problem. You can blame the O-line, but not totally. I watched the coaches' film against the Bears. He had time on a lot of throws. He missed reads and open receivers. One play he had a huge pocket, completely clean. Rudolph was wide open 15 yards down the field on a crossing route, and Stefon Diggs was open for a TD deep, at least 5 yards behind the defense. But instead targeting either guy, he checked down to Mattison ... and didn't even set his feet to throw that pass. He was worried about a rush that wasn't there. That's dumpster-fire-category play.

My only point regarding Case Keenum is this ... if Case Keenum were still a Viking AND playing at the level he was playing in 2017, we'd be undefeated. Big if, I realize. But you'll never convince me the statement isn't true because Keenum was a stud in '17.

Let's clear something up about Cousins contract. People need to get over this guaranteed stuff. Instead of 3 years guaranteed, let's say Cousins signed a 5-year deal worth $124 million with $84 million guaranteed. The Vikings would be in the same situation. The only difference is the length of the contact. Take Rodgers's latest deal. $134 million, $98.7 guaranteed. Now, currently, Rodgers is playing slightly better than Cousins. If he doesn't get any better and continues his suckiness the Packers are on the hook for $53.7 million in dead cap in 2020. The assumption being is that Aaron Rodgers in 2020 is going to be the player he was in 2015. The Packers can't dump him until 2022. and will still have an $11 million cap hit if they do.

And there is zero way one can claim that if QB "A" was on this team that we would be undefeated. If he was playing at the level of 2017, If he was on the team. If worms had guns, birds wouldn't mess with them.

First of all, that's not totally true about the contract. If all the money weren't guaranteed, then some of it could have been front-loaded or backloaded. How much of a dead cap hit would depend on how they structured it. The worst part of Cousins' contract is that the money goes UP every year -- 24, 29.5, 30.5. Granted, the Vikings never expected his play to go the opposite direction. I certainly didn't. For most contracts, the hit goes DOWN over time, not up. The Vikings bet the farm on Cousins, and they're already selling off the chickens. Comparing his contract to a surefire Hall-of-Famer isn't a fair comparison.

As for the QB "A" comment, let me clarify. If the Vikings were getting quarterback play at the LEVEL Case Keenum played in 2017, it's very likely we'd be undefeated. Forget the name Case Keenum. I'm just talking about the level of play. And I can say this with a reasonable amount of certainty because both our losses featured terrible play by Cousins.

[Raptorman]

Let's clear something up about Cousins contract. People need to get over this guaranteed stuff. Instead of 3 years guaranteed, let's say Cousins signed a 5-year deal worth $124 million with $84 million guaranteed. The Vikings would be in the same situation. The only difference is the length of the contact. Take Rodgers's latest deal. $134 million, $98.7 guaranteed. Now, currently, Rodgers is playing slightly better than Cousins. If he doesn't get any better and continues his suckiness the Packers are on the hook for $53.7 million in dead cap in 2020. The assumption being is that Aaron Rodgers in 2020 is going to be the player he was in 2015. The Packers can't dump him until 2022. and will still have an $11 million cap hit if they do.

And there is zero way one can claim that if QB "A" was on this team that we would be undefeated. If he was playing at the level of 2017, If he was on the team. If worms had guns, birds wouldn't mess with them.

First of all, that's not totally true about the contract. If all the money weren't guaranteed, then some of it could have been front-loaded or backloaded. How much of a dead cap hit would depend on how they structured it. The worst part of Cousins' contract is that the money goes UP every year -- 24, 29.5, 30.5. Granted, the Vikings never expected his play to go the opposite direction. I certainly didn't. For most contracts, the hit goes DOWN over time, not up. The Vikings bet the farm on Cousins, and they're already selling off the chickens. Comparing his contract to a surefire Hall-of-Famer isn't a fair comparison.

As for the QB "A" comment, let me clarify. If the Vikings were getting quarterback play at the LEVEL Case Keenum played in 2017, it's very likely we'd be undefeated. Forget the name Case Keenum. I'm just talking about the level of play. And I can say this with a reasonable amount of certainty because both our losses featured terrible play by Cousins.

Ah no. Most QB contracts the hit goes up. Rodgers, Stafford, Willsons, Goffs, Ryans, Newtons, all go up over time. Other contracts maybe, but QB contracts go up until the last year.

Fun Fact. Since Cousins has been with the Vikings

Cousins 10-9-1
Rodgers 9-10-1

[Pondering Her Percy]

It's interesting ... this thread is about Case Keenum, and if we can't agree that he had a GREAT 2017 season, then the conversation ends with me right there. He was an MVP candidate, plain and simple. Not the MVP, but a candidate. Go back and watch the highlights. He did things that season that Kirk Cousins has never done and never will do. It's just a fact. It's easy to linger on the so-called lucky plays. Go back and watch all the great plays, great throws, great reads, and great scrambles to move the chains (talking about picking up first downs with his legs). It's all there on YouTube. Sorry PHP, but you can't tell me, with any sort of intellectual honesty, that he didn't play his a$$ off in 2017.

Kapp, I never once said he didnt have a good 2017. Nobody is denying that including myself. But it's what he's showed on both sides of 2017 that I cant get behind. Too much bad and too little good.

So ... was 2017 an outlier? Would Keenum have been as good under somebody other than Shurmur? I think you have a point there -- I won't concede a "win," but a definite point. Pat Shurmur has always been a coach who tailors his offense to his players' strengths, rather than trying to shoehorn players into a system. He set Keenum up for success, no doubt. Even though any talk about what Keenum WOULD HAVE DONE or WOULD NOT HAVE DONE is pure speculation, it's not a bad argument.

You're right it is pure speculation. But he's had other coordinators. He's had other talented players around him. He didnt get it done. For example, I am a teacher. If I'm 7 years into my professional career. And 6 of those years I was a below average teacher but one year I was an exceptional one that doesnt make me a good teacher. It actually makes me a pretty poor teacher because I showed that I could do it one year, but continue to falter any other year. Chances are, I would be without a job. Keenum has been "fired" more than once. At this point, he cant AND wont latch onto any team long term.

Shurmur was it for Keenum. That was Keenums golden ticket. I think it could have even been Cousins golden ticket. But Pat Shurmur isnt here anymore and wont be coming back, so that's all hopes and dreams at this point.

But in my opinion, the real point of this conversation isn't Case Keenum at all. It's Kirk Cousins.

Nobody would even be mentioning the name Case Keenum if Kirk Cousins were doing what the Vikings paid him to do. Cousins has a reputation for piling up empty stats -- this year, he doesn't even have the stats. He's not doing his job, and he'd be the first to admit it. I mean, for crying out loud, the man apologized to Adam Thielen in a podcast. Do we really want the leader of our football team doing something like that in public? Mike Zimmer doesn't.

You say Cousins' contract isn't hurting the Vikings. I couldn't disagree more. The problem isn't the amount. It's the fact that all the money is fully guaranteed. What happens if Cousins is as bad the next month or six weeks as he was against Chicago? Think it can't happen? Look at the schedule. At KC. At Dallas. At Seattle. At Detroit, which just gave Patrick Mahomes all he could handle. What then? WE CAN'T CUT HIM. We can't move on. The dead money would kill us. We can't realistically even bench him. We're on the hook for $29.5 million this season and $30 million next season. That's about a sixth of the cap. Don't mean to go back to Keenum, but if we were paying Case 18-20 million dollars, you don't think that $10 million would make a difference? Maybe we could have made a play for one of the top O-linemen who were available.

Again, why cut him mid-year anyways? What would that really accomplish if he struggles in those games? And that extra $10 million, no I dont think it would have made a difference. I mentioned this in my last post. The top OL available was Saffold when it comes to interior. We could have looked at LT but again, Reiff had a lot of dead money if we cut him. So the top OL was Saffold and he hasnt separated himself from Kline given how each of them have played this year. So it goes both ways, we would overpay for Saffold when we could have had similar play out of Kline and saved some money.

Again, if Cousins were playing lights out, the contract wouldn't matter. But when he's taking up a sixth of our cap space and playing as the 31st ranked QB in the league, it's a big, big problem. You can blame the O-line, but not totally. I watched the coaches' film against the Bears. He had time on a lot of throws. He missed reads and open receivers. One play he had a huge pocket, completely clean. Rudolph was wide open 15 yards down the field on a crossing route, and Stefon Diggs was open for a TD deep, at least 5 yards behind the defense. But instead targeting either guy, he checked down to Mattison ... and didn't even set his feet to throw that pass. He was worried about a rush that wasn't there. That's dumpster-fire-category play.

My only point regarding Case Keenum is this ... if Case Keenum were still a Viking AND playing at the level he was playing in 2017, we'd be undefeated. Big if, I realize. But you'll never convince me the statement isn't true because Keenum was a stud in '17.

I guess I dont know how you can sit there and confidently say we'd be undefeated. When Keenum was playing in 2017, he didnt play a good Packers defense and Aaron Rodgers. He didnt play a loaded Bears defense. Keenum had a cupcake schedule that year. And let's be honest, the Bears/Redskins game a few weeks ago...Keenum was worse than Cousins against that defense!! WAY worse. He had 3 interceptions and 3 fumbles (2 which were lost) and took 4 sacks. FIVE turnovers. That Bears defense was just as good vs. the Redskins as they were the Vikings. What makes you think Case Keenum would somehow beat that Bears team. Just because he's on a better roster? Our OL isnt a whole lot better than Washingtons if at all. That pressure was still going to be there. Cook would still be getting stuffed. The game would be on Keenums shoulders and he would make plenty of mistakes like he proved he would in Washington. Sorry but Diggs and Thielen arent going to save Keenum in a game like that. Or guys that get on Cousins for overthrowing Thielen....Keenum has overthrown McLaurin more than once this year. He missed a 73 yard TD vs Philly.

Saying "if" Keenum was playing like he was in 2017....well Keenum didnt face a defense like the Bears in 2017. Maybe Philly and he flopped. I also wonder how he'd do against GB being in a huge hole so quickly. He was hardly ever in a hole in 2017 and when he was, he didnt come out of it. I dont care how good he played in 2017, that luck wasnt going to happen vs. Chicago. He showed just how bad he could be a week ago. At home no less.

[halfgiz]

PHP
Tell me again how great Cousins is. Kirk Cousins’ has a 5-25 Record Against Teams over .500

His career record is 36-39-2: which is a loosing record.

His record as a Viking is 9-9-1

So many tell me what exactly has Kirk accomplished in his career...

Kapp excellent post above.

[Pondering Her Percy]

PHP
Tell me again how great Cousins is. Kirk Cousins’ has a 5-25 Record Against Teams over .500

His career record is 36-39-2: which is a loosing record.

His record as a Viking is 9-9-1

So many tell me what exactly has Kirk accomplished in his career...

Kapp excellent post above.

OMG!! When did I ever say Kirk Cousins is "great"?? When did I ever praise Kirk Cousins for everything he does. I go to bat for him when other players or units on this team are failing him just as much as he's failing them. But the finger is always being pointed at him. I mean, keep dreaming about Keenum's miracle year. It will never happen again. Cousins is now our QB and we have to move forward.

IMHO, Zim has failed so far this year, Stefanski/Kubiak have failed so far this year, Cousins has failed so far this year, Diggs has failed so far this year. Our OL has failed so far this year. And our defense has failed so far this year. I dont care what these players/coaches/units did vs. Atlanta and Oakland. It's about what they did against better teams in Chicago and GB. And they all failed in their own way. THAT is what I am defending Cousins for. Because it's not JUST Cousins. Cousins isnt the one causing Diggs to fumble or take his helmet off, he's not causing Riley Reiff, Elflein and Bradbury to flat out whiff on blocks, he's not causing the defense to play like absolute crap in the first half vs GB and all game vs. Chicago, he's not putting himself under center on 90% of the snaps, he's not calling plays that require 7 step drops from under center. THAT is why I go to Cousins defense when everyone jumps down his throat for costing us this game and that game. He's done his part of failing that's for damn sure. But quit coming at me like I'm acting like Cousins does no wrong. Some of your problems is that you cant get past the hatred for the guy and that's all you know is to blame him when things go wrong. Sorry but that's not me. I look at the big picture. I'm well aware that there are many other factors and players not doing their job right now other than Kirk Cousins. Some of you turn the other way when those players/coaches/units arent performing and blame Cousins instead. That's not the way the game of football works

[halfgiz]

PHP
Tell me again how great Cousins is. Kirk Cousins’ has a 5-25 Record Against Teams over .500

His career record is 36-39-2: which is a loosing record.

His record as a Viking is 9-9-1

So many tell me what exactly has Kirk accomplished in his career...

Kapp excellent post above.

OMG!! When did I ever say Kirk Cousins is "great"?? When did I ever praise Kirk Cousins for everything he does. I go to bat for him when other players or units on this team are failing him just as much as he's failing them. But the finger is always being pointed at him. I mean, keep dreaming about Keenum's miracle year. It will never happen again. Cousins is now our QB and we have to move forward.

IMHO, Zim has failed so far this year, Stefanski/Kubiak have failed so far this year, Cousins has failed so far this year, Diggs has failed so far this year. Our OL has failed so far this year. And our defense has failed so far this year. I dont care what these players/coaches/units did vs. Atlanta and Oakland. It's about what they did against better teams in Chicago and GB. And they all failed in their own way. THAT is what I am defending Cousins for. Because it's not JUST Cousins. Cousins isnt the one causing Diggs to fumble or take his helmet off, he's not causing Riley Reiff, Elflein and Bradbury to flat out whiff on blocks, he's not causing the defense to play like absolute crap in the first half vs GB and all game vs. Chicago, he's not putting himself under center on 90% of the snaps, he's not calling plays that require 7 step drops from under center. THAT is why I go to Cousins defense when everyone jumps down his throat for costing us this game and that game. He's done his part of failing that's for damn sure. But quit coming at me like I'm acting like Cousins does no wrong. Some of your problems is that you cant get past the hatred for the guy and that's all you know is to blame him when things go wrong. Sorry but that's not me. I look at the big picture. I'm well aware that there are many other factors and players not doing their job right now other than Kirk Cousins. Some of you turn the other way when those players/coaches/units arent performing and blame Cousins instead. That's not the way the game of football works

I could find a lot of posts where your saying how great a QB Cousins is.
And that's what is annoying...because currently he is stinking it up.
Your always making excuses for him when he under performs.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I could find a lot of posts where your saying how great a QB Cousins is.

Please find them. I would love to see what you're talking about. Otherwise please dont accuse me for something I am not doing.

And that's what is annoying...because currently he is stinking it up.
Your always making excuses for him when he under performs.

I literally never once said he was playing well right now so I dont know why you are telling me that.

Also, when he makes mistakes, I admit he made mistakes. But do you ever think that the reason he is "under performing" is because others around him arent doing their jobs either?? That's like Cook going for 40 yards vs. the Bears. Nobody blames Dalvin Cook for that. They blame the OL. Why isnt Cook blamed? He's the one with the ball in his hands, he's the one running the football. Or Stefon Diggs. Guys complain about Cousins fumbles that game but arent complaining about Diggs? All I'm saying is, not everything is solely on Kirk Cousins. I'm not making excuses for him. I'm being realistic. The D sucked vs. Chicago, the OL sucked vs. Chicago, Kirk sucked vs. Chicago, etc. It's to the point now where it doesnt matter who does what in the game. Whether Kirk throws for 400 and 4 tds or 100 and 1 td, if we lose, guys are going to find fault with Cousins. Cousins is going to be the reason we lose. Not the defense, not the OL, not Diggs or Cook, nobody. It's going to be Cousins. And to me, that's 100% unfair. If the D plays lights out all day, the OL blocks even halfway decent, Cook plays well, the WRs do their job but Kirk sucks, sure that's on Kirk. But EVERYTHING is pointed in his direction right now. It's to the point where guys are actually defending this horror show of a pass blocking OL just so the finger can be pointed at Cousins. Sorry but that's wrong and unrealistic. He's done his part wrong that's for sure, but I can name plenty of others that havent done their job either. I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand

[J. Kapp 11]

It's interesting ... this thread is about Case Keenum, and if we can't agree that he had a GREAT 2017 season, then the conversation ends with me right there. He was an MVP candidate, plain and simple. Not the MVP, but a candidate. Go back and watch the highlights. He did things that season that Kirk Cousins has never done and never will do. It's just a fact. It's easy to linger on the so-called lucky plays. Go back and watch all the great plays, great throws, great reads, and great scrambles to move the chains (talking about picking up first downs with his legs). It's all there on YouTube. Sorry PHP, but you can't tell me, with any sort of intellectual honesty, that he didn't play his a$$ off in 2017.

Kapp, I never once said he didnt have a good 2017. Nobody is denying that including myself. But it's what he's showed on both sides of 2017 that I cant get behind. Too much bad and too little good.

So ... was 2017 an outlier? Would Keenum have been as good under somebody other than Shurmur? I think you have a point there -- I won't concede a "win," but a definite point. Pat Shurmur has always been a coach who tailors his offense to his players' strengths, rather than trying to shoehorn players into a system. He set Keenum up for success, no doubt. Even though any talk about what Keenum WOULD HAVE DONE or WOULD NOT HAVE DONE is pure speculation, it's not a bad argument.

You're right it is pure speculation. But he's had other coordinators. He's had other talented players around him. He didnt get it done. For example, I am a teacher. If I'm 7 years into my professional career. And 6 of those years I was a below average teacher but one year I was an exceptional one that doesnt make me a good teacher. It actually makes me a pretty poor teacher because I showed that I could do it one year, but continue to falter any other year. Chances are, I would be without a job. Keenum has been "fired" more than once. At this point, he cant AND wont latch onto any team long term.

Shurmur was it for Keenum. That was Keenums golden ticket. I think it could have even been Cousins golden ticket. But Pat Shurmur isnt here anymore and wont be coming back, so that's all hopes and dreams at this point.

But in my opinion, the real point of this conversation isn't Case Keenum at all. It's Kirk Cousins.

Nobody would even be mentioning the name Case Keenum if Kirk Cousins were doing what the Vikings paid him to do. Cousins has a reputation for piling up empty stats -- this year, he doesn't even have the stats. He's not doing his job, and he'd be the first to admit it. I mean, for crying out loud, the man apologized to Adam Thielen in a podcast. Do we really want the leader of our football team doing something like that in public? Mike Zimmer doesn't.

You say Cousins' contract isn't hurting the Vikings. I couldn't disagree more. The problem isn't the amount. It's the fact that all the money is fully guaranteed. What happens if Cousins is as bad the next month or six weeks as he was against Chicago? Think it can't happen? Look at the schedule. At KC. At Dallas. At Seattle. At Detroit, which just gave Patrick Mahomes all he could handle. What then? WE CAN'T CUT HIM. We can't move on. The dead money would kill us. We can't realistically even bench him. We're on the hook for $29.5 million this season and $30 million next season. That's about a sixth of the cap. Don't mean to go back to Keenum, but if we were paying Case 18-20 million dollars, you don't think that $10 million would make a difference? Maybe we could have made a play for one of the top O-linemen who were available.

Again, why cut him mid-year anyways? What would that really accomplish if he struggles in those games? And that extra $10 million, no I dont think it would have made a difference. I mentioned this in my last post. The top OL available was Saffold when it comes to interior. We could have looked at LT but again, Reiff had a lot of dead money if we cut him. So the top OL was Saffold and he hasnt separated himself from Kline given how each of them have played this year. So it goes both ways, we would overpay for Saffold when we could have had similar play out of Kline and saved some money.

Again, if Cousins were playing lights out, the contract wouldn't matter. But when he's taking up a sixth of our cap space and playing as the 31st ranked QB in the league, it's a big, big problem. You can blame the O-line, but not totally. I watched the coaches' film against the Bears. He had time on a lot of throws. He missed reads and open receivers. One play he had a huge pocket, completely clean. Rudolph was wide open 15 yards down the field on a crossing route, and Stefon Diggs was open for a TD deep, at least 5 yards behind the defense. But instead targeting either guy, he checked down to Mattison ... and didn't even set his feet to throw that pass. He was worried about a rush that wasn't there. That's dumpster-fire-category play.

My only point regarding Case Keenum is this ... if Case Keenum were still a Viking AND playing at the level he was playing in 2017, we'd be undefeated. Big if, I realize. But you'll never convince me the statement isn't true because Keenum was a stud in '17.

I guess I dont know how you can sit there and confidently say we'd be undefeated. When Keenum was playing in 2017, he didnt play a good Packers defense and Aaron Rodgers. He didnt play a loaded Bears defense. Keenum had a cupcake schedule that year. And let's be honest, the Bears/Redskins game a few weeks ago...Keenum was worse than Cousins against that defense!! WAY worse. He had 3 interceptions and 3 fumbles (2 which were lost) and took 4 sacks. FIVE turnovers. That Bears defense was just as good vs. the Redskins as they were the Vikings. What makes you think Case Keenum would somehow beat that Bears team. Just because he's on a better roster? Our OL isnt a whole lot better than Washingtons if at all. That pressure was still going to be there. Cook would still be getting stuffed. The game would be on Keenums shoulders and he would make plenty of mistakes like he proved he would in Washington. Sorry but Diggs and Thielen arent going to save Keenum in a game like that. Or guys that get on Cousins for overthrowing Thielen....Keenum has overthrown McLaurin more than once this year. He missed a 73 yard TD vs Philly.

Saying "if" Keenum was playing like he was in 2017....well Keenum didnt face a defense like the Bears in 2017. Maybe Philly and he flopped. I also wonder how he'd do against GB being in a huge hole so quickly. He was hardly ever in a hole in 2017 and when he was, he didnt come out of it. I dont care how good he played in 2017, that luck wasnt going to happen vs. Chicago. He showed just how bad he could be a week ago. At home no less.

Again, I wasn't clear about this.

If we were getting quarterback play -- from anybody -- at the LEVEL Keenum gave us in 2017, I believe we'd be undefeated. Is that speculation? Of course. That's what we do here. It's what you've done saying Keenum wouldn't play well with the Vikings under somebody besides Shurmur. You have solid evidence -- Keenum hasn't played well under other coordinators. I also have solid evidence -- both our losses could have and probably would have been reversed with even competent quarterback play.

Yes, our defense pooped the bed in the first quarter against Green Bay. But in the end, we had an opportunity to win, and our quarterback putzed it away. Same against the Bears. The Vikings had two possessions in the entire first half, yet only trailed by 10 and had the ball to start the third quarter. Cousins missed quite a few opportunities, and most of those when he wasn't under pressure. He stunk it up both games, and you can't win in the NFL if your quarterback stinks it up.

Case Keenum aside ... if our quarterback doesn't improve his level of play, we could be looking at a 10-loss season here. The schedule is not kind. Detroit is no longer a pushover. We have three games remaining where we'll be the prohibitive favorite -- the Giants, the Redskins, and the Broncos.

If anything, this SOLIDIFIES my argument that we need Case-2017-level play. With our defense and our running game, we don't need MVP type play. Just the solid play Case gave us that year. Believe me, I'm PRAYING Cousins turns it around and delivers it -- if for no other reason than he's our only option.

[Cliff]

In team sports sometimes it's more about chemistry than raw talent. This seems to be especially true in the NFL. Sometimes a player just "fits" for a variety of reasons that aren't statistical. I believe that Case had that in 2017 with the Vikings and what would have basically been the 2018 Vikings too. There was a "blue collar" feel that the offense had. Hard work and not necessarily "talent" was how they would have to win. Two of the main pieces and "stars" of the offense were undrafted. "Workhorse" type RBs doing the best with what they had.

Case Keenum earned his chance to start for the Vikings in 2018, in my opinion. Who knows if Case will ever find what he had with the Vikings that year. I'd doubt it and that doesn't matter to me. Sometimes the situation is more important than the raw talent of a particular player.

Here's what I know - Case is *capable* of having a season like that.

[StumpHunter]

It is almost a lock Case will be available in 2021 when the Vikings are able to move on from Cousins.

I think it is about a 50/50 shot he is the QB brought in to mentor our rookie or backup our 2nd year guy.

[J. Kapp 11]

In team sports sometimes it's more about chemistry than raw talent. This seems to be especially true in the NFL. Sometimes a player just "fits" for a variety of reasons that aren't statistical. I believe that Case had that in 2017 with the Vikings and what would have basically been the 2018 Vikings too. There was a "blue collar" feel that the offense had. Hard work and not necessarily "talent" was how they would have to win. Two of the main pieces and "stars" of the offense were undrafted. "Workhorse" type RBs doing the best with what they had.

Case Keenum earned his chance to start for the Vikings in 2018, in my opinion. Who knows if Case will ever find what he had with the Vikings that year. I'd doubt it and that doesn't matter to me. Sometimes the situation is more important than the raw talent of a particular player.

Here's what I know - Case is *capable* of having a season like that.

I'm glad I'm not alone in this.

When I look back at highlights of that season, what stands out to me is the first downs Keenum made with his legs. It wasn't just that he ran for first downs. It's that he didn't always slide. When he needed to get to the sticks, he stuck his nose in there and got the yardage. That breeds the chemistry and the blue collar feel you mention. Teammates appreciate a quarterback who will lay it on the line and do what it takes.

That's what I miss right now. Teammates fighting for each other instead of with each other.

[Pondering Her Percy]

It is almost a lock Case will be available in 2021 when the Vikings are able to move on from Cousins.

I think it is about a 50/50 shot he is the QB brought in to mentor our rookie or backup our 2nd year guy.

I would say it's probably a lock for Keenum to be available any year because he clearly cant stick on a team for anymore than a year at this point. I would imagine we draft a QB this year. It makes all the sense in the world. Cousins will have 1 year left, if he doesnt show anymore, we move on and start the rookie in his 2nd year. If we want to keep Cousins longer, we always have someone waiting in the wings. But this offseason we still wont know if we want to keep Cousins long term or not so it would make sense to draft one early

[J. Kapp 11]

It is almost a lock Case will be available in 2021 when the Vikings are able to move on from Cousins.

I think it is about a 50/50 shot he is the QB brought in to mentor our rookie or backup our 2nd year guy.

I would say it's probably a lock for Keenum to be available any year because he clearly cant stick on a team for anymore than a year at this point. I would imagine we draft a QB this year. It makes all the sense in the world. Cousins will have 1 year left, if he doesnt show anymore, we move on and start the rookie in his 2nd year. If we want to keep Cousins longer, we always have someone waiting in the wings. But this offseason we still wont know if we want to keep Cousins long term or not so it would make sense to draft one early

Draft whom?

This is the conundrum we're in. We won't draft high enough for Tua or Lawrence, but we're good enough to win half our games, even if Cousins continues his weak play. Zimmer and Spielman aren't going to fold the tents just to get a top draft pick -- their jobs are on the line.

The only way we could secure a top-two pick is to actually trade somebody like Diggs to a team that's likely going to draft high (Oakland, Washington, etc.), then use draft capital to trade up. Frankly, I don't like that idea. Diggs has been too good a player for us, and he's still young. Trading him virtually guarantees we miss the playoffs. We have two of the best receivers in football, but almost no depth. This would kill us offensively.

[Dames]

I would imagine we draft a QB this year. It makes all the sense in the world. Cousins will have 1 year left, if he doesnt show anymore, we move on and start the rookie in his 2nd year. If we want to keep Cousins longer, we always have someone waiting in the wings. But this offseason we still wont know if we want to keep Cousins long term or not so it would make sense to draft one early

I truly hope we do draft a QB, but based on the track record of Spielman, it's far from a guarantee that:

A) We'll even draft a QB
B) That drafted QB will be good, especially considering the draft position we'll likely be in (probably middle round, hopefully late)

I wouldn't put it past this organization to ignore that position again since they are essentially locked in with Cousins for another year, and are afraid to have a rookie QB waiting in the wings. When is the last time we've seen that in Minn? It doesn't fit their M.O. Again, I hope they do it, and I agree it makes perfect sense for them to draft a QB. My understanding is the QB class is going to be pretty good in 2020, but I'm not up on college football.

[Dames]

This is the conundrum we're in. We won't draft high enough for Tua or Lawrence, but we're good enough to win half our games, even if Cousins continues his weak play. Zimmer and Spielman aren't going to fold the tents just to get a top draft pick -- their jobs are on the line.

The only way we could secure a top-two pick is to actually trade somebody like Diggs to a team that's likely going to draft high (Oakland, Washington, etc.), then use draft capital to trade up. Frankly, I don't like that idea. Diggs has been too good a player for us, and he's still young. Trading him virtually guarantees we miss the playoffs. We have two of the best receivers in football, but almost no depth. This would kill us offensively.

Hypothetically speaking, if you could trade Diggs (and another 1 round pick) for one of those 2 QBs, you wouldn't? Diggs is one of my favorite players, and I think his talent is top-notch, but I would do that trade in a heartbeat, because the QB position is clearly the most important position in the NFL, and I don't think it's close.

We can win with one great WR and a great QB. Having a true franchise QB would be a dream. I know there is no guarantee with any draft pick, but can you imagine?