Who did the Vikings want at 8?

[StumpHunter]

If Rick continues to not trade back for 6th and 7ths in future drafts I could go with your theory, but because of Covid and NCAA rule changes for an extra year of eligibility, 2021's draft had even less talent in the 4th,5th,6th, and 7th rounds than usual. Every GM knew that and as much as I rag on Rick, he is no idiot.

I dont think that was necessarily the reason whatsoever. No less, why would that rumor come out regarding Paton? Sounds more like you're just disagreeing because you feel like it. Future drafts will prove what Spielmans philosophy is. But I'm not sure why anyone would randomly make that up about Paton, no less we didnt trade for a single one the first year without him.

There could be lots of reasons that rumor came out about Paton. First and foremost it absolves Rick of culpability over his failed philosophy of trading down for 6th and 7ths for the past 10 years, so I can see fans of the GM making that up, or wanting to believe it.

I am not disagreeing to disagree, I am disagreeing because it just seems logical to me that in a year where everyone knew the quality in the later rounds was going to be much worse than usual, that it gave Rick a reason not to trade down. It does not seem logical to me that Rick was forced to trade back because his assistant liked doing it.

How many trade downs for 6th and 7th rounders for Paton in Denver this year btw? I see 1 trade up, 2 trade downs, 1 for a 5th, 1 for a 3rd.

[fiestavike]

With regard to draft trades, I think all teams operate on some combination of their scouting, team needs, intuition, trade value, and Optics/fear.

Franchises with "involved owners" are more likely to place more emphasis on intuition, especially that owner's intuition. Some GMs probably trust their intuition more than others. Fans also operate mostly on intuition.

While trade value is not unimportant, its likely to be given a lot higher priority by those who are driven more by optics/fear. Fans also tend to place a higher value on this than teams should.

Scouting departments place players in tiers, and if you are truly committed to going BPA, this allows you to move up and down the draft board pretty easily and without much anxiety or risk. Of course, some balance with team needs has to be factored in, and that can change a GM's calculus when it comes to trades. If 10 players remain who are ranked equally, but only 2 of them are at a position of intense need/priority, your tier has effectively just been shrunk to 2.

Whether its Spielman or Paton, the Vikings have pretty evidently been a team that places less value on intuition, trade value and optics, prioritizing scouting far and above their other factors, with team needs being a lower consideration. That may be a mistake, but I think its been their approach. Given that, one of 10 equally ranked players plus a 6th and/or 7th beats one of 10 equally ranked players sans a 6th and/or 7th.

Whether the Vikings scouting department is any good is another question, and they should certainly look to improve, but if you aren't going to trust that process, you might as well just go back to intuition or fan polls to make your picks.

[CharVike]

That's not ignored. That allowed the Bucs to bring pressure. The mobile and athletic Mahomes couldn't put any TDs on the board. People ignore that. Too much pressure and he couldn't perform. Didn't use his mobility to buy time for his WRs. Heavy pressure stops every QB. People ignore that simple fact.

Did you not watch that game? He had multiple TDs dropped by his WRs after he "used his mobility to buy time for his WRs". Those drops likely weren't the difference in the game, since KC's defense couldn't stop Brady, but 20 points versus 12 would have been the difference between a win or a loss in a number of other SBs.

They obtained two proven top flight NFL OL guys for a reason. I think that was to provide protection for their QB. I could be wrong it's only my guess. The media over blows the mobility thing. Brady never had any mobility. Yes he can take a few steps up or back or sideways but when a person says Brady mobility doesn't pop into there heads. He also isn't considered a great athlete whatever that means. What he can do is throw an accurate football. He's knows what the defense is doing. He's still the best in the game and his style still works at the max level in today's mobile QB only deal. Plus at an advanced age. Of course when he's under pressure things don't work the same. That happens to all QBs. That's why having a good OL is important and that's why the Chiefs made those move.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I dont think that was necessarily the reason whatsoever. No less, why would that rumor come out regarding Paton? Sounds more like you're just disagreeing because you feel like it. Future drafts will prove what Spielmans philosophy is. But I'm not sure why anyone would randomly make that up about Paton, no less we didnt trade for a single one the first year without him.

There could be lots of reasons that rumor came out about Paton. First and foremost it absolves Rick of culpability over his failed philosophy of trading down for 6th and 7ths for the past 10 years, so I can see fans of the GM making that up, or wanting to believe it.

I am not disagreeing to disagree, I am disagreeing because it just seems logical to me that in a year where everyone knew the quality in the later rounds was going to be much worse than usual, that it gave Rick a reason not to trade down. It does not seem logical to me that Rick was forced to trade back because his assistant liked doing it.

How many trade downs for 6th and 7th rounders for Paton in Denver this year btw? I see 1 trade up, 2 trade downs, 1 for a 5th, 1 for a 3rd.

Maybe it seems more logical to you when it comes directly from the horses mouth.....

This is a direct quote from Paton at his introductory press conference in Denver....

"I think our philosophy in Minnesota is try to acquire as many draft picks as you can," Paton said during his introductory press conference in January. "The more draft picks you have, the more flexibility you have. In the offseason, you can make a trade for a player. [On] draft day, you can kind of work your way up and down the draft — if you want to go get a player, you go get them. So, we always thought it was important.

"The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye. I would like to think that would continue here. Every draft it may not work out. Some drafts you just want to stand pat and take the guy — a really good player. That is going to remain a philosophy here in Denver if possible."

I could care less what Denver did this year. I do know they made more draft trades than the Vikings did. I never said Spielman was "forced" to trade back. Obviously there is some agreement there between him and Paton. But it's also quite obvious that there was a change in overall philosophy this year. If the back end of the draft was so weak, why wouldnt Spielman try and trade up like a mad man? That would be the logical thing right?

Either way, I've always been a fan of the approach and especially the line Paton drops above.... "The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye". I didnt hate Spielmans approach this year by any means because we had so many picks already built up from previous drafts but I'm still in support of that type of philosophy. But I can tell you, if it was all Spielman wanting to do all these trade downs and not Paton, the last thing Paton would be doing at his introductory press conference as new GM of the Broncos is pumping Rick Spielmans philosophy that supposedly doesnt work. Just saying.

[StumpHunter]

There could be lots of reasons that rumor came out about Paton. First and foremost it absolves Rick of culpability over his failed philosophy of trading down for 6th and 7ths for the past 10 years, so I can see fans of the GM making that up, or wanting to believe it.

I am not disagreeing to disagree, I am disagreeing because it just seems logical to me that in a year where everyone knew the quality in the later rounds was going to be much worse than usual, that it gave Rick a reason not to trade down. It does not seem logical to me that Rick was forced to trade back because his assistant liked doing it.

How many trade downs for 6th and 7th rounders for Paton in Denver this year btw? I see 1 trade up, 2 trade downs, 1 for a 5th, 1 for a 3rd.

Maybe it seems more logical to you when it comes directly from the horses mouth.....

This is a direct quote from Paton at his introductory press conference in Denver....

"I think our philosophy in Minnesota is try to acquire as many draft picks as you can," Paton said during his introductory press conference in January. "The more draft picks you have, the more flexibility you have. In the offseason, you can make a trade for a player. [On] draft day, you can kind of work your way up and down the draft — if you want to go get a player, you go get them. So, we always thought it was important.

"The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye. I would like to think that would continue here. Every draft it may not work out. Some drafts you just want to stand pat and take the guy — a really good player. That is going to remain a philosophy here in Denver if possible."

I could care less what Denver did this year. I do know they made more draft trades than the Vikings did. I never said Spielman was "forced" to trade back. Obviously there is some agreement there between him and Paton. But it's also quite obvious that there was a change in overall philosophy this year. If the back end of the draft was so weak, why wouldnt Spielman try and trade up like a mad man? That would be the logical thing right?

Either way, I've always been a fan of the approach and especially the line Paton drops above.... "The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye". I didnt hate Spielmans approach this year by any means because we had so many picks already built up from previous drafts but I'm still in support of that type of philosophy. But I can tell you, if it was all Spielman wanting to do all these trade downs and not Paton, the last thing Paton would be doing at his introductory press conference as new GM of the Broncos is pumping Rick Spielmans philosophy that supposedly doesnt work. Just saying.

There is no "supposed", trading back for late round picks hasn't resulted in a SINGLE impact starter drafted in the 6th or 7th round in the 10 years of doing it. Which is probably why no successful GM tries to accumulate those picks like Rick does.

[VikingsVictorious]

Maybe it seems more logical to you when it comes directly from the horses mouth.....

This is a direct quote from Paton at his introductory press conference in Denver....



I could care less what Denver did this year. I do know they made more draft trades than the Vikings did. I never said Spielman was "forced" to trade back. Obviously there is some agreement there between him and Paton. But it's also quite obvious that there was a change in overall philosophy this year. If the back end of the draft was so weak, why wouldnt Spielman try and trade up like a mad man? That would be the logical thing right?

Either way, I've always been a fan of the approach and especially the line Paton drops above.... "The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye". I didnt hate Spielmans approach this year by any means because we had so many picks already built up from previous drafts but I'm still in support of that type of philosophy. But I can tell you, if it was all Spielman wanting to do all these trade downs and not Paton, the last thing Paton would be doing at his introductory press conference as new GM of the Broncos is pumping Rick Spielmans philosophy that supposedly doesnt work. Just saying.

There is no "supposed", trading back for late round picks hasn't resulted in a SINGLE impact starter drafted in the 6th or 7th round in the 10 years of doing it. Which is probably why no successful GM tries to accumulate those picks like Rick does.

So now 6th and 7th round picks are required to produce IMPACT STARTERS. I thought they were there to get backup and special team guys and once in a while produce something better. Rick did not go out of his way to accumulate 6th and 7th round picks. When other teams got a hard on for a particular player and pretty much offered them for free Rick accepted them.

[StumpHunter]

Did you not watch that game? He had multiple TDs dropped by his WRs after he "used his mobility to buy time for his WRs". Those drops likely weren't the difference in the game, since KC's defense couldn't stop Brady, but 20 points versus 12 would have been the difference between a win or a loss in a number of other SBs.

They obtained two proven top flight NFL OL guys for a reason. I think that was to provide protection for their QB. I could be wrong it's only my guess. The media over blows the mobility thing. Brady never had any mobility. Yes he can take a few steps up or back or sideways but when a person says Brady mobility doesn't pop into there heads. He also isn't considered a great athlete whatever that means. What he can do is throw an accurate football. He's knows what the defense is doing. He's still the best in the game and his style still works at the max level in today's mobile QB only deal. Plus at an advanced age. Of course when he's under pressure things don't work the same. That happens to all QBs. That's why having a good OL is important and that's why the Chiefs made those move.

No one is arguing a good Oline isn't important, but you would have to have your head in the sand to not recognize that every current great QB not named Brady falls into the athletic, mobile QB mold. Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, these guys are mobile, they are able to create time with their legs and they are great passers.

Pocket passers just have to be so much better at making reads and getting the ball out quickly to make up for their lack of escapeability, that most have ceilings of above average at best.

[StumpHunter]

There is no "supposed", trading back for late round picks hasn't resulted in a SINGLE impact starter drafted in the 6th or 7th round in the 10 years of doing it. Which is probably why no successful GM tries to accumulate those picks like Rick does.

So now 6th and 7th round picks are required to produce IMPACT STARTERS. I thought they were there to get backup and special team guys and once in a while produce something better. Rick did not go out of his way to accumulate 6th and 7th round picks. When other teams got a hard on for a particular player and pretty much offered them for free Rick accepted them.

You can get backups and special teamers in UDFA and for cheap on the waiver wire. For a draft strategy to be successful, it should make the team significantly better. Trading back for those later rounders hasn't done that and it could have possibly made the team worse if players the Vikings were targeting were sniped after trading back.


Rick has admitted he goes out of his way to trade back and that he covets those late round picks. Every GM gets those phone calls to trade back, he is the only GM who accepts those calls at the rate he accepts them. It is purposeful, at best pointless and at its worst cost us actual starters.

[CharVike]

There could be lots of reasons that rumor came out about Paton. First and foremost it absolves Rick of culpability over his failed philosophy of trading down for 6th and 7ths for the past 10 years, so I can see fans of the GM making that up, or wanting to believe it.

I am not disagreeing to disagree, I am disagreeing because it just seems logical to me that in a year where everyone knew the quality in the later rounds was going to be much worse than usual, that it gave Rick a reason not to trade down. It does not seem logical to me that Rick was forced to trade back because his assistant liked doing it.

How many trade downs for 6th and 7th rounders for Paton in Denver this year btw? I see 1 trade up, 2 trade downs, 1 for a 5th, 1 for a 3rd.

Maybe it seems more logical to you when it comes directly from the horses mouth.....

This is a direct quote from Paton at his introductory press conference in Denver....

"I think our philosophy in Minnesota is try to acquire as many draft picks as you can," Paton said during his introductory press conference in January. "The more draft picks you have, the more flexibility you have. In the offseason, you can make a trade for a player. [On] draft day, you can kind of work your way up and down the draft — if you want to go get a player, you go get them. So, we always thought it was important.

"The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye. I would like to think that would continue here. Every draft it may not work out. Some drafts you just want to stand pat and take the guy — a really good player. That is going to remain a philosophy here in Denver if possible."

I could care less what Denver did this year. I do know they made more draft trades than the Vikings did. I never said Spielman was "forced" to trade back. Obviously there is some agreement there between him and Paton. But it's also quite obvious that there was a change in overall philosophy this year. If the back end of the draft was so weak, why wouldnt Spielman try and trade up like a mad man? That would be the logical thing right?

Either way, I've always been a fan of the approach and especially the line Paton drops above.... "The more picks, the more darts and the better chance of you hitting the bullseye". I didnt hate Spielmans approach this year by any means because we had so many picks already built up from previous drafts but I'm still in support of that type of philosophy. But I can tell you, if it was all Spielman wanting to do all these trade downs and not Paton, the last thing Paton would be doing at his introductory press conference as new GM of the Broncos is pumping Rick Spielmans philosophy that supposedly doesnt work. Just saying.

Speilman and whoever else have obtained 25 7th round picks from trading down since he's been GM. Total pay back is nothing. Waste of time and effort. That's not how you create a great team. That don't work. This year we needed a LT. Get the best coming out. That guy was Penei Sewell. We were in position. He didn't make the move. He traded down again for a lesser prospect. Of course there are no guarantees with the draft and he might have knocked it out. That should be the goal is to get the best prospect. He did trade up once for QB two tone Teddy or whatever his nickname was. He's still playing but he's not a guy a team really wants. Saints let him go and the Panthers went with bust Darnold. Never had the physical skills to succeed at a high level. Lacked arm strength and accuracy. Hard to overcome those two. Now he's in a spot to make a move. He needs to trade Cousins and get some pay back before he bolts for nothing. Now's the time make it happen and get some high picks and players perhaps a young QB. That will never happen because it's an outside the box move. It would take a set to do it. I would trade him to Denver for Drew Lock and some picks. I wanted Lock when he came out. He hasn't done anything but he's still young. IMO Denver would jump at that. They can make a run with Cousins. That's not happening with Lock and Teddy switching back and forth or whatever they will do. Cousins will play out this contract and then bolt for nothing and we will move onto Mond. That could work also. It fits in the box at least.

[YikesVikes]

Why does everyone ignore the fact that the chiefs were missing both starting tackles in the Superbowl? That's why they struggled.

That's not ignored. That allowed the Bucs to bring pressure. The mobile and athletic Mahomes couldn't put any TDs on the board. People ignore that. Too much pressure and he couldn't perform. Didn't use his mobility to buy time for his WRs. Heavy pressure stops every QB. People ignore that simple fact.

You are telling us things we know. When a team is using it's 3rd and 4th Tackles, they are most likely going to lose. We are talking about in games where the rosters are reasonable. It's absurd to not see the direction the QB position is moving in. Name a Qb drafted last year that's not mobile? I know the first 4 can move. Mac Jones I'm not sure about. You have to be able to move in today's NFL.

[CharVike]

They obtained two proven top flight NFL OL guys for a reason. I think that was to provide protection for their QB. I could be wrong it's only my guess. The media over blows the mobility thing. Brady never had any mobility. Yes he can take a few steps up or back or sideways but when a person says Brady mobility doesn't pop into there heads. He also isn't considered a great athlete whatever that means. What he can do is throw an accurate football. He's knows what the defense is doing. He's still the best in the game and his style still works at the max level in today's mobile QB only deal. Plus at an advanced age. Of course when he's under pressure things don't work the same. That happens to all QBs. That's why having a good OL is important and that's why the Chiefs made those move.

No one is arguing a good Oline isn't important, but you would have to have your head in the sand to not recognize that every current great QB not named Brady falls into the athletic, mobile QB mold. Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, these guys are mobile, they are able to create time with their legs and they are great passers.

Pocket passers just have to be so much better at making reads and getting the ball out quickly to make up for their lack of escapeability, that most have ceilings of above average at best.

Every QB needs to make reads. When teams keep Jackson in the pocket he don't produce like when he's running lose. That's Chinese fire drill stuff that he does. Everything breaks down. When I hear Rodgers my first thought isn't his mobility it's his passing skill that comes to mind. He is mobile and one time when he was mobile trying the escape Barr knocked him out for the year. Not a good move by Rodgers. Him and the team would have been better off if he stayed in the pocket and took the sack or threw it away. Last year Wilson and the Hawks were on a roll. Wilson was being talked about as MVP. The Hawks needed help on D and their GM got Carlos Dunlap and that D made a tremendous jump. There sacks and pressures and points allowed improved big time. Just then Wilson went into the tank. You can't tank at that point. Last 4 games he was carried by the D. Then in the playoffs pick 6 and game over. That's a home playoff lose. Wilson blames his OL. Come on hold up your side. My head isn't in the sand all that happened. Look it up. Dak will win his division this year. Big deal. He's a winner. If he was in our division he's not beating out Rodgers then he'd be a loser. People miss that. I would like our chances better in the NFC east. Rodgers will beat us out unless we knock him out again while he's buying time. Then Cousins will get the win because that Packer squad isn't that good without Rodgers. I hope the next time we play Rodgers he spends his time running around in the backfield we might knock him out again. I'd rather see that than him shredding us from the pocket. I've seen that one play out also. You like a guy like Dak who's mobile. I like a guy who can pass with the best. Different opinions. Hold tight we'll see in a few years if not sooner on our team. Maybe we have the guy to be out mobile Rodgers. I doubt it but time will tell.

[VikingsVictorious]

So now 6th and 7th round picks are required to produce IMPACT STARTERS. I thought they were there to get backup and special team guys and once in a while produce something better. Rick did not go out of his way to accumulate 6th and 7th round picks. When other teams got a hard on for a particular player and pretty much offered them for free Rick accepted them.

You can get backups and special teamers in UDFA and for cheap on the waiver wire. For a draft strategy to be successful, it should make the team significantly better. Trading back for those later rounders hasn't done that and it could have possibly made the team worse if players the Vikings were targeting were sniped after trading back.


Rick has admitted he goes out of his way to trade back and that he covets those late round picks. Every GM gets those phone calls to trade back, he is the only GM who accepts those calls at the rate he accepts them. It is purposeful, at best pointless and at its worst cost us actual starters.

To me the results of those picks has been good. Sure you can get players from the waiver wire and UDFA. It doesn't diminish getting contributing players from the 6th and 7th round. You are holding a very high standard for what constitutes a reasonable return on investment. I don't consider those picks to be failed or wasted if they return contributing players. 95% of the time I would guess we weren't sniped and we got the picks/players from those picks for free. As I mentioned previously I think the only time we were ever sniped in a trade back was when Ian Thomas was taken and we settled for Conklin. That has turned out to be no loss at all.

[808vikingsfan]

Did you not watch that game? He had multiple TDs dropped by his WRs after he "used his mobility to buy time for his WRs". Those drops likely weren't the difference in the game, since KC's defense couldn't stop Brady, but 20 points versus 12 would have been the difference between a win or a loss in a number of other SBs.

They obtained two proven top flight NFL OL guys for a reason. I think that was to provide protection for their QB. I could be wrong it's only my guess. The media over blows the mobility thing. Brady never had any mobility. Yes he can take a few steps up or back or sideways but when a person says Brady mobility doesn't pop into there heads. He also isn't considered a great athlete whatever that means. What he can do is throw an accurate football. He's knows what the defense is doing. He's still the best in the game and his style still works at the max level in today's mobile QB only deal. Plus at an advanced age. Of course when he's under pressure things don't work the same. That happens to all QBs. That's why having a good OL is important and that's why the Chiefs made those move.

This is such an underrated statement. This is what makes Brady so good. He's the best at buying time IN the pocket with his subtle moves, his shoulder fakes, stepping up, side etc. There's a video showing this (can't seem to find it). He helps his OL out immensely.

[S197]

I know what a running QB is. Jackson is a runner. He gets a 1000 yards rushing some of that off passing plays. There isn't another like him. His problem comes when a dam good D basically says you need to beat us through the air. At that point he's done. The mobility measure is a difficult one to answer. I usually just take rushing yards which shows a guy can move or is mobile. Mahomes is considered mobile and I agree with that. Found this According to NextGenStats, via Seth Walder of ESPN.com, Mahomes ran 497 yards before throwing the ball or being sacked on Sunday night. It was the highest total for any quarterback in the 2020 season.
Second on the list? Mahomes in Week Five, against the Raiders. That day, Mahomes ran for 495 yards before throwing the ball or getting sacked.
He is basically running around for almost 500 yards a game behind the line of scrimmage. Not rushing yards just buying time yards. That nonsense back fired when the Bucs sent the heat in the Super Bowl. Couldn't score. Mobility had no use. They rebuilt a very good OL with top NFL players. Pressure will slow them all down even the most mobile Mahomes. Rodgers struggles when the heat is on. Cousins struggles when the heat is coming and sometimes when it's not. The Chiefs ran an RPO play with Mahomes or as Switzer called it a broken bone were the QB runs horizontal with the LOS and either pitches to the back or bangs it into the LOS for yardage. He banged it and then was banged. Concussion. That was a rushing attempt utilizing his mobility or athletic ability or whatever tag fits today.

Why does everyone ignore the fact that the chiefs were missing both starting tackles in the Superbowl? That's why they struggled.

Not too mention he was injured and just got out of concussion protocol.

[YikesVikes]

No one is arguing a good Oline isn't important, but you would have to have your head in the sand to not recognize that every current great QB not named Brady falls into the athletic, mobile QB mold. Rodgers, Wilson, Allen, Prescott, Mahomes, Watson, Jackson, these guys are mobile, they are able to create time with their legs and they are great passers.

Pocket passers just have to be so much better at making reads and getting the ball out quickly to make up for their lack of escapeability, that most have ceilings of above average at best.

Every QB needs to make reads. When teams keep Jackson in the pocket he don't produce like when he's running lose. That's Chinese fire drill stuff that he does. Everything breaks down. When I hear Rodgers my first thought isn't his mobility it's his passing skill that comes to mind. He is mobile and one time when he was mobile trying the escape Barr knocked him out for the year. Not a good move by Rodgers. Him and the team would have been better off if he stayed in the pocket and took the sack or threw it away. Last year Wilson and the Hawks were on a roll. Wilson was being talked about as MVP. The Hawks needed help on D and their GM got Carlos Dunlap and that D made a tremendous jump. There sacks and pressures and points allowed improved big time. Just then Wilson went into the tank. You can't tank at that point. Last 4 games he was carried by the D. Then in the playoffs pick 6 and game over. That's a home playoff lose. Wilson blames his OL. Come on hold up your side. My head isn't in the sand all that happened. Look it up. Dak will win his division this year. Big deal. He's a winner. If he was in our division he's not beating out Rodgers then he'd be a loser. People miss that. I would like our chances better in the NFC east. Rodgers will beat us out unless we knock him out again while he's buying time. Then Cousins will get the win because that Packer squad isn't that good without Rodgers. I hope the next time we play Rodgers he spends his time running around in the backfield we might knock him out again. I'd rather see that than him shredding us from the pocket. I've seen that one play out also. You like a guy like Dak who's mobile. I like a guy who can pass with the best. Different opinions. Hold tight we'll see in a few years if not sooner on our team. Maybe we have the guy to be out mobile Rodgers. I doubt it but time will tell.

How can you say when you think of Rogers you don't thing of his mobility. That's what he is famous for. He is the definition of the get out of trouble Qb, create with his legs and then kill the defense on 3rd down with an amazing throw while rolling to his left. Pocket Rogers isn't as scary. Bootlegging Rogers on 3rd and 9 will be a 30 yard pass to Nelson.