Post Bears Game discussion

[VikingLord]

IMO, this represents a total coaching debacle. How did they manage to take what they had and make it worse?

Yep. To me it screams that Zimmer has told Cousins to stop taking risks because our philosophy is great defense, good running, win time of possession. After his bone-head throw in week 2, I'm sure Zimmer had a nice talk with Cousins and now he's terrified of taking the slightest risk out there.

With all the high draft equity we have on our starting defense, it'd be great if we had a coach who still felt confident that the defense could hold or force stops/turnovers when the offense takes some risks.

The defense doesn't take many risks either.

The whole team is a glorified Brad Childress reboot. Strict adherence to scheme, then execute that scheme. Don't deviate. Wait for the other guys to make the mistakes.

It's not a terrible philosophy provided A) you are as or more talented than most of your opponents and B) you aren't the ones making the mistakes. If either of those are not true, winning is at best a 50-50 proposition. If neither of those is true, you lose nearly every time and in the vast majority of those losses you will lose convincingly.

The thing that amazed me the most about yesterday's game wasn't how the offense played. I expected the Bears to be tough to run against, and I expect Cousins to struggle. No, the thing about yesterday that amazed me was how the defense kept rushing 4 against the Bears backup QB. He was rarely under any pressure. For most of the game he could just drop back, stand there, set and deliver the ball. Did Zimmer (I seriously almost typed Childress there...) decide to mix it up to throw him off? Nope. Did the DBs play tighter, perhaps take some chances by jumping on shorter routes, if nothing else than to just get in Daniels' head? Nope.

No, the defense sat back and played their standard cookie-cutter formula, a formula the Bears were very familiar with and knew exactly how to deal with. Stats-wise, the defense looked OK. Points-wise, you can argue they played well. But in terms of what the Vikings defense needed to do to give the offense a chance to win the game, they fell woefully short of that.

[TSonn]

The defense doesn't take many risks either.

Great point.

Our philosophy should be... Make a mistake on offense? That's OK because next time we'll win that risk with Diggs, Thielen, and Cook. Plus we've got Harrison Smith or Anthony Barr or Eric Kendricks or Xavier Rhodes or Everson Griffen or Danielle Hunter who's gonna make a play on defense and negate that mistake on offense.

Instead, our philosophy is... if you make a mistake on offense we're going to lose this game so don't even think about taking any risks.

[VikingLord]

The defense doesn't take many risks either.

Great point.

Our philosophy should be... Make a mistake on offense? That's OK because next time we'll win that risk with Diggs, Thielen, and Cook. Plus we've got Harrison Smith or Anthony Barr or Eric Kendricks or Xavier Rhodes or Everson Griffen or Danielle Hunter who's gonna make a play on defense and negate that mistake on offense.

Instead, our philosophy is... if you make a mistake on offense we're going to lose this game so don't even think about taking any risks.

And you know, the more I think about it, what was different about the team in 2017? In 2017 when they went 11-5 and made their run they ended up starting their 3rd string QB, a guy who had nothing to lose and who ended up taking a lot of risks. Keenum kept scrambling around and throwing it up to give Thielen and Diggs chances and it paid off for him. You could almost argue that the 2017 team was destined for the mediocrity we saw last year and so far this year and was saved by the bad luck of having to resort to a 3rd string journeyman at QB.

Now that they've "reverted" back to play-it-safe ball, they're experiencing the predictable results of that. Beat the bad teams, lose to the good teams.

[mansquatch]

IMO, this represents a total coaching debacle. How did they manage to take what they had and make it worse?

By hiring a first-time OC and playcaller? Their passing game looks unsophisticated some of the playcalling and play designs are embarrassing. For example, that 2 point conversion attempt yesterday was laughably bad, one of the worst I've ever seen. What made them think that had a snowball's chance in hell of working?

The idea was that Kubiak would provide the experience that Stefanski lacked. That isn't a bad idea. However, 4 games in the experiment is not working with regards to the passing attack. it is obvious that the rushing attack has taken strides, they deserve credit there. What is a mess is the passing attack looks AWFUL and there is no excuse for it. Stefanski was around previous OCs who could throw well. Kubiak obviously has coaching his fair share of successful passers. There is no GOOD reason for it to be this bad. Outside of Bradbury we saw this roster function better as a passing attack last season.

There is something going on in Eagan, the story just hasn't broken yet. Either Cousins has some injury that he is hiding or hasn't been disclosed, Cousins is just playing like hot garbage (Thielen's recent coments suggest this) or there is an issue going on between the coaches. It is hard to believe that Kukiak, with his resume, would allow a passing team this talented perform at this level unless there is more going on than we are seeing or hearing. Keep in mind he brought two long time assistants with him. These aren't new coaches, they've been through it all, including winning a SB together.

Whatever it is, it is a mess. Its on Zimmer to right the ship. Right now they look like the worst team in the NFC North.

[TSonn]

The thing that amazed me the most about yesterday's game wasn't how the offense played. I expected the Bears to be tough to run against, and I expect Cousins to struggle. No, the thing about yesterday that amazed me was how the defense kept rushing 4 against the Bears backup QB. He was rarely under any pressure. For most of the game he could just drop back, stand there, set and deliver the ball. Did Zimmer (I seriously almost typed Childress there...) decide to mix it up to throw him off? Nope. Did the DBs play tighter, perhaps take some chances by jumping on shorter routes, if nothing else than to just get in Daniels' head? Nope.

No, the defense sat back and played their standard cookie-cutter formula, a formula the Bears were very familiar with and knew exactly how to deal with. Stats-wise, the defense looked OK. Points-wise, you can argue they played well. But in terms of what the Vikings defense needed to do to give the offense a chance to win the game, they fell woefully short of that.

The Bears were even allowing Daniels to throw late into the 4th quarter. That says to me that we could've potentially forced him into making some bad decisions and getting a turnover. Instead, it seemed like Zimmer was telling his defense to bait Daniels into a bad throw instead of forcing him into one. I think the baiting plan probably would work against Trubisky but Daniels has a lot more game tape experience and was too smart to fall for it.

[StumpHunter]

The thing that amazed me the most about yesterday's game wasn't how the offense played. I expected the Bears to be tough to run against, and I expect Cousins to struggle. No, the thing about yesterday that amazed me was how the defense kept rushing 4 against the Bears backup QB. He was rarely under any pressure. For most of the game he could just drop back, stand there, set and deliver the ball. Did Zimmer (I seriously almost typed Childress there...) decide to mix it up to throw him off? Nope. Did the DBs play tighter, perhaps take some chances by jumping on shorter routes, if nothing else than to just get in Daniels' head? Nope.

No, the defense sat back and played their standard cookie-cutter formula, a formula the Bears were very familiar with and knew exactly how to deal with. Stats-wise, the defense looked OK. Points-wise, you can argue they played well. But in terms of what the Vikings defense needed to do to give the offense a chance to win the game, they fell woefully short of that.

The Bears were even allowing Daniels to throw late into the 4th quarter. That says to me that we could've potentially forced him into making some bad decisions and getting a turnover. Instead, it seemed like Zimmer was telling his defense to bait Daniels into a bad throw instead of forcing him into one. I think the baiting plan probably would work against Trubisky but Daniels has a lot more game tape experience and was too smart to fall for it.

The best way to force a backup QB to throw picks is to put pressure on him to score. He never had that all game.

[VikingLord]

The Bears were even allowing Daniels to throw late into the 4th quarter. That says to me that we could've potentially forced him into making some bad decisions and getting a turnover. Instead, it seemed like Zimmer was telling his defense to bait Daniels into a bad throw instead of forcing him into one. I think the baiting plan probably would work against Trubisky but Daniels has a lot more game tape experience and was too smart to fall for it.

The best way to force a backup QB to throw picks is to put pressure on him to score. He never had that all game.

And for you, that pressure needs to come from the offense scoring, right? Not the defense changing things up a bit, maybe some increased blitzing, maybe tightening up on the short routes, maybe jumping on some of those short routes?

[StumpHunter]

The best way to force a backup QB to throw picks is to put pressure on him to score. He never had that all game.

And for you, that pressure needs to come from the offense scoring, right? Not the defense changing things up a bit, maybe some increased blitzing, maybe tightening up on the short routes, maybe jumping on some of those short routes?

Nope, you are right, it is that simple and Zimmer has no clue how to coach defense.

It is easy to force a competent backup to throw bad, risky passes when his team is up two scores. Just blitz him!

[VikingLord]

And for you, that pressure needs to come from the offense scoring, right? Not the defense changing things up a bit, maybe some increased blitzing, maybe tightening up on the short routes, maybe jumping on some of those short routes?

Nope, you are right, it is that simple and Zimmer has no clue how to coach defense.

It is easy to force a competent backup to throw bad, risky passes when his team is up two scores. Just blitz him!

Actually, when most competent backup QBs are up by 2 scores, they aren't asked to throw much at all.

The fact that the Bears continued to do so and said backup QB compared it to running the scout team in practice should tell you something.

Coaching a defense and calling a game on defense are 2 different things. I think Zimmer is a decent coach. I'm not sure he's very good at adjusting. In your view, the defense did everything that it could have done to affect the outcome of the game? They were powerless to do anything better than what they managed to do?

That argument is false on its face. All you have to do is look at how the Bears defended the Vikings to understand that. The Bears defense took away what the Vikings did well and attacked them mercilessly where they are weak. They exposed every flaw of that offense.

Now tell me how the Vikings defense did the same to the Bears offense yesterday? Did they make that offense look inept and ineffective in your view?

[mansquatch]

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2019/9/29 ... game-notes

This article echoes nicely my views on this game overall. IMO, it is spot on with where it lays the blame.

[Mothman]

https://www.dailynorseman.com/2019/9/29 ... game-notes

This article echoes nicely my views on this game overall. IMO, it is spot on with where it lays the blame.

I agree with the latter. It's hard to overstate how poorly coached the Vikings were yesterday.

I think the article's a bit generous to Cousins, particularly in this passage:

"Cousins was also able to rally in the 4th quarter, which was his best in the game, going 92 yards and completing 10 passes in a row in 4 minutes for the Vikings first score - once they decided to go up-tempo. Too little too late, but Cousins did what he could with the time remaining.

Again, being under pressure most of the game, Cousins played about as well as you could hope for in that game plan - which left much to be desired."

Cousins could have played much better. He didn't secure the ball and he missed opportunities that were clearly there. It's a little misleading to say he was able to rally once they went up-tempo without also pointing out how softly the Bears defense was playing on that drive. They were in a pretty obvious prevent, willing to give up passes underneath to force the Vikes to consume clock. In short, they let up on Cousins and it helped him boost his stat line at a point when the Bears clearly had the game in hand.

[S197]

I think the problem with the defense is they're overly complacent and comfortable with one another. They've played so long together they are essentially stuck in this rut of doing the same thing over and over. It's probably better if a bunch of them leave next year, talent is irrelevant if effort is lacking. There's been far too many games they've looked completely unprepared for a supposed top tier defense.

Offensively we're just screwed as Cousins is here for another year with a no trade clause. The best we can hope for is a guy gets drafted and can sit a year and get up to speed while Cousins plays out his last year. Of course for that to happen, Rick will probably need to be fired because the guy NEVER drafts a QB unless absolutely necessary.

[Mothman]

I think the problem with the defense is they're overly complacent and comfortable with one another. They've played so long together they are essentially stuck in this rut of doing the same thing over and over. It's probably better if a bunch of them leave next year, talent is irrelevant if effort is lacking. There's been far too many games they've looked completely unprepared for a supposed top tier defense.

Offensively we're just screwed as Cousins is here for another year with a no trade clause. The best we can hope for is a guy gets drafted and can sit a year and get up to speed while Cousins plays out his last year. Of course for that to happen, Rick will probably need to be fired because the guy NEVER drafts a QB unless absolutely necessary.

He shouldn't get another bite at the QB apple in Minnesota anyway, not after signing Cousins to this ridiculous contract and spending 3 first round picks on QBs in the past 9 years. The QB position has been spectacularly mismanaged.

[CharVike]

I hear you, my friend. As you know, I've been in that place for a while now and it's frustrating. I was beyond frustrated sitting through that game at Soldier Field yesterday, watching yet another lackluster Vikings performance in Chicago.

Dead_Poet wrote above: "The defense didn't play great but they played well enough to win." When I read that this morning, I disagreed with it (they couldn't get off the field yesterday) but it also occurred to me that "The defense played well enough to win" basically defines the last 5+ years under Zimmer, where we've seen too many disappointing losses, a lack of offensive vision and chronic issues that never get sufficiently resolved, like underwhelming QB play, an unsettled QB position, poor OL performance, teams that show up flat and/or unprepared and a tendency to lose against quality opponents (probably just being exacerbated by Cousins at this point).

It's been apparent from the start that Zimmer is nothing more than a glorified defensive coordinator and that's doubly apparent in the performance of his teams. There was hope he could could grow into his position but to me, it doesn't seem as if he's grown at all.

Most of these issues are also indicative of the Spielman era and the rapidly regressing QB with the ridiculous contract that's currently "leading" the team is a perfect illustration of why HE needs to go.

It's truly unlikely this team will do anything significant this year. They may even end up finishing at the bottom of the division, a position they currently occupy. Maybe it would be good if the proverbial wheels just came off so the excuses could evaporate and the Wilfs would be moved to decisive action because honestly, it's needed. The Vikings are no more likely to do something significant next year under this leadership than they are this year. They need change from the top down.

I'm starting to come around on the notion that Zimmer is a glorified defensive coordinator. It's sobering to admit because I like him. I'll defend Spielman because save the o-line and QB this is probably one of the most talented rosters in the entire league. But it also goes to show you that you cannot combine a below average QB and a terrible offensive line and have that translate into a winning recipe. The offensive line just needs to be adequate OR you need an above-average QB. If either goes, I'd prefer it's Zimmer. And I really hate that four games into the season I'm even thinking about it. But these two division road games were just bad. Maybe if we played decently and lost it'd be one thing but this was a complete offensive embarrassment. Again. And I'm so sick of it.

One of the most talented roster in the NFL? Our most talented D let some bum march down the field and set the tone. They chewed the clock up. No disrespect intended but that shouldn't happen against a talented D. This is a 500 squad for a reason. Both teams we played that have a winning record owned us. The Pack buried us right off the bat. I'm not an expert but this talented D didn't step up. The Bears effort was embarrassing. We couldn't even open a running lane playing against a beat up front. I certainly don't know what the problem is but the Bears beat up DL took control. And then we let Mack do his thing and strip our QB. We couldn't block him. Looking backwards is easy but I don't know what the future holds. Right now it looks like we didn't improve to much. Our 1st round pick is starting but is he playing that well? Really none of us know because we don't know the line call. I seen him on his back but maybe that was were he was suppose to be. And yes Cousins is a middle of the road guy but we needed someone to play the position. Other teams were also after him. And he's a middle of the pack player. Some have said a team can't win doing one thing good. I'm not an expert but I seen the Phins beat us in the Super Bowl and only threw 7 passes I think. But we couldn't stop the ground game. They only threw so people would know Greise played. He could have had no stat line and they would have won. So it can be done.

[Purplepain2018]

I only have two words for everybody....


KYLE SLOTER!!!

Hey, he can't play any worse!!!