Post Bears Game discussion

[Mothman]

I found myself way less intense during this game than previous ones, especially the GB game. I think it's because this game made me realize that there's no reason to care so much about the outcome, because THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY this team does anything significant this year. Hope has left the building. It's time to rebuild, AGAIN. As a fan for some 40 plus years, I'm really #### disappointed and fatigued.

I hear you, my friend. As you know, I've been in that place for a while now and it's frustrating. I was beyond frustrated sitting through that game at Soldier Field yesterday, watching yet another lackluster Vikings performance in Chicago.

Dead_Poet wrote above: "The defense didn't play great but they played well enough to win." When I read that this morning, I disagreed with it (they couldn't get off the field yesterday) but it also occurred to me that "The defense played well enough to win" basically defines the last 5+ years under Zimmer, where we've seen too many disappointing losses, a lack of offensive vision and chronic issues that never get sufficiently resolved, like underwhelming QB play, an unsettled QB position, poor OL performance, teams that show up flat and/or unprepared and a tendency to lose against quality opponents (probably just being exacerbated by Cousins at this point).

It's been apparent from the start that Zimmer is nothing more than a glorified defensive coordinator and that's doubly apparent in the performance of his teams. There was hope he could could grow into his position but to me, it doesn't seem as if he's grown at all.

Most of these issues are also indicative of the Spielman era and the rapidly regressing QB with the ridiculous contract that's currently "leading" the team is a perfect illustration of why HE needs to go.

It's truly unlikely this team will do anything significant this year. They may even end up finishing at the bottom of the division, a position they currently occupy. Maybe it would be good if the proverbial wheels just came off so the excuses could evaporate and the Wilfs would be moved to decisive action because honestly, it's needed. The Vikings are no more likely to do something significant next year under this leadership than they are this year. They need change from the top down.

[VikingLord]

Good post. I saw the Thielen comments and they made me happy. He was definitely calling out Kirk and it reminded me of their spat on the sideline against the Bears last year. Thielen is a gamer who wants a QB who can adapt when the play doesn't go as planned. Kirk's not that guy. Gotta be perfect for Kirk - perfect route, perfect protection. Only two ways to fix that issue right now: improve the oline so more plays go as planned or switch QBs.

But what are the Vikings going to do about Cousins? What can they do about Cousins at this point?

They're stuck with him. All they can do is thinly criticize him. They can bench him, release him, or play him. They're still on the hook for nearly 30 million for the guy and not just for the rest of this season, but for next season too.

Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing Mannion out there, but I doubt Mannion would have done any better against the Bears defense yesterday than Cousins did. The Bear defensive front taught class yesterday. It was a pop quiz and the entire Vikings front failed it straight up, just like a supposedly weaker offensive line did in both games last year.

What are they going to do now that they've been exposed?

Granted, every team isn't going to be able to play like the Bears, but a few things are painfully clear now:

- Dalvin Cook may be able to run, but he can't block to save his life. Send pressure against him and you're likely to just waltz right past or through him. If Stefanski has to take Cook off the field on throwing downs, which he's going to have to do now after what the Bears exposed, well, that sucks.
- Cousins won't just fold under pressure - he'll fumble, he'll throw picks, he'll take bad sacks. His vaunted ability to hit deep throws? He can't hit those either, at least lately, so defenses can gamble and play up. He might find a WR over the top, but it's even money he won't, and even if he does, he's far more likely to make up for it in other mistakes. Throw pressure at him. Blitz him. Take risks because he won't hurt you if you do.
- Lastly, the Vikings run game can be shut down, and if you shut it down, you shut down the entire offense. That's all the Vikings have to throw at teams. The vaunted Diggs-Theilen combo? Ineffective and largely absent this year (see Cousins: Kirk). Rudolph and Irv Smith Jr (see Cousins: Kirk). Not every team has a front 7 that can shut down the Vikings run game, that's true. They'll likely pop off against a team or two yet this year, but if I'm an opposing DC, I sell out to shut that down and take my chances with the Vikings passing game.

[CharVike]

Just read an article on NFL.com . I think there may a little doubt in Cousins starting on the locker room.
Theilen stating his frustration, and though he didn't mention Cousins by name, it seemed like he was referencing his play. He stated that we cant run for 180 yards every game and when they cant he said " You have to be able to pass. You have to be able to throw the deep ball"
Diggs also commented about how they grind every day then go out and put on a performance like that.
The telling point was , at least the way I read it and perceived it, was the way Theilen used the work You have to be able to throw it deep. He didn't say We, like he normally would. He is a team guy all the way. It was just a little different way of addressing the issue than usual for him.
Again, I wasn't there to hear everything he said, his body language etc. But it just seemed from the short statement I read that it seemed to be indicating a bit of frustration with his QBs performance.
I hope I'm wrong there and we don't start having a fractured locker room on top of all the issues and shortcomings we are experiencing.
I wanna keep the hope alive for a good rest of the season, but that hope is sadly fading for me. And I hate to feel that way about a team with so much talent and potential.

I like the deep ball to. But some like the dink and dunk stuff and that has been proven to work also. We completed some dump offs but nobody took it to the house. Maybe we lack that talent on our team. Who knows what he was referring to. It could be bad OL blocking. Bad play calling IDK. But maybe Theilen needs to do more in a big game. Take a quick slant to the house. Split the secondary. Be a game breaker. Maybe that's beyond him. I think Diggs made a mistake or two in this game but I could be wrong.
Zim seems to have trouble when playing against top level teams. Even his D don't hold up. We might have a hard time against the Lions at this point. Everyone will point the finger at something different.

[Bowhunting Viking]

Just read an article on NFL.com . I think there may a little doubt in Cousins starting on the locker room.
Theilen stating his frustration, and though he didn't mention Cousins by name, it seemed like he was referencing his play. He stated that we cant run for 180 yards every game and when they cant he said " You have to be able to pass. You have to be able to throw the deep ball"
Diggs also commented about how they grind every day then go out and put on a performance like that.
The telling point was , at least the way I read it and perceived it, was the way Theilen used the work You have to be able to throw it deep. He didn't say We, like he normally would. He is a team guy all the way. It was just a little different way of addressing the issue than usual for him.
Again, I wasn't there to hear everything he said, his body language etc. But it just seemed from the short statement I read that it seemed to be indicating a bit of frustration with his QBs performance.
I hope I'm wrong there and we don't start having a fractured locker room on top of all the issues and shortcomings we are experiencing.
I wanna keep the hope alive for a good rest of the season, but that hope is sadly fading for me. And I hate to feel that way about a team with so much talent and potential.

Good post. I saw the Thielen comments and they made me happy. He was definitely calling out Kirk and it reminded me of their spat on the sideline against the Bears last year. Thielen is a gamer who wants a QB who can adapt when the play doesn't go as planned. Kirk's not that guy. Gotta be perfect for Kirk - perfect route, perfect protection. Only two ways to fix that issue right now: improve the oline so more plays go as planned or switch QBs.

Theilen even goes a little harsher on a Yahoo sports interview a buddy at work just showed me.
I think these guys have lost faith in him.
I know I have finally come to that conclusion. When he's needed most he folds.
And like someone else said, when he does screw up, you dont see the anger and passion u see in a Brady, a Manning when he played, or even I hate to say Rodgers. Kirk just goes straight to the bench and stares expressionless at that stupid tablet.
Then after the game it's the same scripted I'm sorry, i need to get better, i would like to have that one back blah blah blah stuff.
I've def slid over from the defending him to doubting him side of the wagon, and I feel justified in that decision now.

[dead_poet]

I found myself way less intense during this game than previous ones, especially the GB game. I think it's because this game made me realize that there's no reason to care so much about the outcome, because THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY this team does anything significant this year. Hope has left the building. It's time to rebuild, AGAIN. As a fan for some 40 plus years, I'm really #### disappointed and fatigued.

I hear you, my friend. As you know, I've been in that place for a while now and it's frustrating. I was beyond frustrated sitting through that game at Soldier Field yesterday, watching yet another lackluster Vikings performance in Chicago.

Dead_Poet wrote above: "The defense didn't play great but they played well enough to win." When I read that this morning, I disagreed with it (they couldn't get off the field yesterday) but it also occurred to me that "The defense played well enough to win" basically defines the last 5+ years under Zimmer, where we've seen too many disappointing losses, a lack of offensive vision and chronic issues that never get sufficiently resolved, like underwhelming QB play, an unsettled QB position, poor OL performance, teams that show up flat and/or unprepared and a tendency to lose against quality opponents (probably just being exacerbated by Cousins at this point).

It's been apparent from the start that Zimmer is nothing more than a glorified defensive coordinator and that's doubly apparent in the performance of his teams. There was hope he could could grow into his position but to me, it doesn't seem as if he's grown at all.

Most of these issues are also indicative of the Spielman era and the rapidly regressing QB with the ridiculous contract that's currently "leading" the team is a perfect illustration of why HE needs to go.

It's truly unlikely this team will do anything significant this year. They may even end up finishing at the bottom of the division, a position they currently occupy. Maybe it would be good if the proverbial wheels just came off so the excuses could evaporate and the Wilfs would be moved to decisive action because honestly, it's needed. The Vikings are no more likely to do something significant next year under this leadership than they are this year. They need change from the top down.

I'm starting to come around on the notion that Zimmer is a glorified defensive coordinator. It's sobering to admit because I like him. I'll defend Spielman because save the o-line and QB this is probably one of the most talented rosters in the entire league. But it also goes to show you that you cannot combine a below average QB and a terrible offensive line and have that translate into a winning recipe. The offensive line just needs to be adequate OR you need an above-average QB. If either goes, I'd prefer it's Zimmer. And I really hate that four games into the season I'm even thinking about it. But these two division road games were just bad. Maybe if we played decently and lost it'd be one thing but this was a complete offensive embarrassment. Again. And I'm so sick of it.

[TSonn]

Good post. I saw the Thielen comments and they made me happy. He was definitely calling out Kirk and it reminded me of their spat on the sideline against the Bears last year. Thielen is a gamer who wants a QB who can adapt when the play doesn't go as planned. Kirk's not that guy. Gotta be perfect for Kirk - perfect route, perfect protection. Only two ways to fix that issue right now: improve the oline so more plays go as planned or switch QBs.

But what are the Vikings going to do about Cousins? What can they do about Cousins at this point?

They're stuck with him. All they can do is thinly criticize him. They can bench him, release him, or play him. They're still on the hook for nearly 30 million for the guy and not just for the rest of this season, but for next season too.

Heck, I wouldn't mind seeing Mannion out there, but I doubt Mannion would have done any better against the Bears defense yesterday than Cousins did. The Bear defensive front taught class yesterday. It was a pop quiz and the entire Vikings front failed it straight up, just like a supposedly weaker offensive line did in both games last year.

What are they going to do now that they've been exposed?

The test of a good leader is how quickly they move on from mistakes. Our only options to turn our current team into a contender is to move on from Cousins or to improve our offensive line.

Really tough to throw in a new QB mid-year so that's probably not the answer. There are a couple guys who could maybe make the line look better and take more chances - Kaepernick and Bradford are available. Kaep has the legs to make the defense worry about his scrambling and Bradford could make better reads pre-snap. Maybe call Luck out of retirement? So it really just leaves us trying to upgrade the offensive line. I hope Spielman is on the phone with Washington all day trying to figure out what we need to do to get Trent Williams (and, heck, throw in Keenum too).

[TSonn]

Theilen even goes a little harsher on a Yahoo sports interview a buddy at work just showed me.
I think these guys have lost faith in him.
I know I have finally come to that conclusion. When he's needed most he folds.
And like someone else said, when he does screw up, you dont see the anger and passion u see in a Brady, a Manning when he played, or even I hate to say Rodgers. Kirk just goes straight to the bench and stares expressionless at that stupid tablet.
Then after the game it's the same scripted I'm sorry, i need to get better, i would like to have that one back blah blah blah stuff.
I've def slid over from the defending him to doubting him side of the wagon, and I feel justified in that decision now.

Oof, you're right: https://sports.yahoo.com/kirk-cousins-i ... 28155.html

“He made a great read of finding me open, and just didn't complete the pass,” Thielen said. “It's as simple as that.”

I think part of the problem with Cousins is that he's regressed since becoming a vet in the league. Younger QBs are often commended for making mistakes on the field because they're learning the speed of the NFL and learning their limitations. Since coming to MN, Kirk has been considered a vet and vet's are already supposed to know these things aka limit mistakes. Pair that with a coach who's super tough on QB mistakes (see: 2017 Keenum never knowing if he's starting 2 weeks out), and Cousins has just forgotten who he is as a QB. His 50/50 balls are made at terrible times (see: Packers week 2 2019) and his default is playing it safe now. Instead of being OK with making a mistake because he knows that sometimes we're going to be on the winning side of those plays, he just tries to never make mistakes. Even the throw on 4th and 1 yesterday was a scared throw - almost out of reach for Diggs when in reality a 50/50 ball is the safer bet since an INT wins the field position game in that scenario.

Say what you want about the QB he was in Washington (overrated, empty stats, didn't win), the dude took way more chances and gave his WRs opportunities to make plays. He just doesn't do that anymore. Part of that is on him and part of that is on Zim.

[mansquatch]

I hear you, my friend. As you know, I've been in that place for a while now and it's frustrating. I was beyond frustrated sitting through that game at Soldier Field yesterday, watching yet another lackluster Vikings performance in Chicago.

Dead_Poet wrote above: "The defense didn't play great but they played well enough to win." When I read that this morning, I disagreed with it (they couldn't get off the field yesterday) but it also occurred to me that "The defense played well enough to win" basically defines the last 5+ years under Zimmer, where we've seen too many disappointing losses, a lack of offensive vision and chronic issues that never get sufficiently resolved, like underwhelming QB play, an unsettled QB position, poor OL performance, teams that show up flat and/or unprepared and a tendency to lose against quality opponents (probably just being exacerbated by Cousins at this point).

It's been apparent from the start that Zimmer is nothing more than a glorified defensive coordinator and that's doubly apparent in the performance of his teams. There was hope he could could grow into his position but to me, it doesn't seem as if he's grown at all.

Most of these issues are also indicative of the Spielman era and the rapidly regressing QB with the ridiculous contract that's currently "leading" the team is a perfect illustration of why HE needs to go.

It's truly unlikely this team will do anything significant this year. They may even end up finishing at the bottom of the division, a position they currently occupy. Maybe it would be good if the proverbial wheels just came off so the excuses could evaporate and the Wilfs would be moved to decisive action because honestly, it's needed. The Vikings are no more likely to do something significant next year under this leadership than they are this year. They need change from the top down.

I'm starting to come around on the notion that Zimmer is a glorified defensive coordinator. It's sobering to admit because I like him. I'll defend Spielman because save the o-line and QB this is probably one of the most talented rosters in the entire league. But it also goes to show you that you cannot combine a below average QB and a terrible offensive line and have that translate into a winning recipe. The offensive line just needs to be adequate OR you need an above-average QB. If either goes, I'd prefer it's Zimmer. And I really hate that four games into the season I'm even thinking about it. But these two division road games were just bad. Maybe if we played decently and lost it'd be one thing but this was a complete offensive embarrassment. Again. And I'm so sick of it.

What really has annoyed me about the start to this season is that on paper this OL should be better than last year. I get that Lang was out yesterday so that is probably part of it, but still. O'Neil has a season under his belt. Bradbury was supposed to be the best Center to come out of the draft in like a decade. Reiff is consistent. Guards are an issue, but still, this unit isn't the dumpster fire we had last year. At least it shouldn't be. We also have a verteran OL coach in Dennison. Yet yesterday without Hicks in the game they got totally handled.

Cousins, for all his horribleness this year, looked decent last year. Yes we had the fumbles, but when he wasn't putting the ball in the dirt he was chucking darts to Thielen and Diggs all over the place. As you may recall, in the first half of last season Thielen was on a record setting pace for a WR. I know Cousins is far from perfect, but he wasn't THIS bad last season.

Now we have this year and despite all of that talent on the roster the passing game is a total dumpster fire.

My question is: WHY? It really feels like they totally went full monty on the running game in training camp and the passing game just didn't get the practice time it needed. Cousins is BAD right now, a total shadow of even his 2018 performance. Something is up in Eagan with this QB and how the coaches are handling him. I can't believe I'm typing this, because I really felt JDF was the main offensive issue last season, but JDF got FAR more out of this passing game than we are seeing from Stefanski-Kubiak. There is no obvious reason for it to be this bad right now. This isn't more of the same, they are actually worse as a passing team this year than they were last year.

IMO, this represents a total coaching debacle. How did they manage to take what they had and make it worse?

[Mothman]

I'm starting to come around on the notion that Zimmer is a glorified defensive coordinator. It's sobering to admit because I like him. I'll defend Spielman because save the o-line and QB this is probably one of the most talented rosters in the entire league. But it also goes to show you that you cannot combine a below average QB and a terrible offensive line and have that translate into a winning recipe.

Exactly. The problem with Spielman is his job is to come up with that winning recipe, not just to put together a talented roster. They aren't unrelated goals, of course, but it's crystal clear at this point that he doesn't know how to put together that winning recipe.

The offensive line just needs to be adequate OR you need an above-average QB. If either goes, I'd prefer it's Zimmer.

I think it has to be both. If the GM goes, the new GM should be able to pick his head coach. If Zimmer goes, the Vikings are only dealing with about half of their biggest problem. Spielman's been in a key personnel position for this team for 13 years (GM or de facto GM for 9). QB and OL problems have been persistent issues for most of that time. I'd argue that they are characteristic of Spielman teams and they offset his ability to build a solid roster otherwise. Sticking with him will condemn the Vikes to more of the same football we've seen from teams coached by Childress, Frazier and Zimmer. Spielman is the factor that binds those 3 coaching eras together and the Vikes have just 2 playoff wins to show for those 13 years of football. There's just no reason to believe his ability to assemble a talented roster is going to yield more than what we've already seen. Whatever that Super Bowl-winning recipe is, it's not in Rick's cookbook.

I know I've been banging this drum for years now but I think Spielman's NFL history backs me up and for that matter, so does Zimmer's. Both men have done some fine work in the NFL but they're not the people on which to pin a franchise's championship hopes. Their past tells us that and their present efforts reinforce it.

And I really hate that four games into the season I'm even thinking about it. But these two division road games were just bad. Maybe if we played decently and lost it'd be one thing but this was a complete offensive embarrassment. Again. And I'm so sick of it.

Rightly so but it's what we should expect under this management because, pretty consistently, it's what they've delivered. I think most of us are sick of it so why not clean house and see if the Vikings can actually find a coach and GM who can deliver something better? Sure, as someone will inevitably point out, things could get worse but that's no reason to keep treading water.

[TSonn]

IMO, this represents a total coaching debacle. How did they manage to take what they had and make it worse?

Yep. To me it screams that Zimmer has told Cousins to stop taking risks because our philosophy is great defense, good running, win time of possession. After his bone-head throw in week 2, I'm sure Zimmer had a nice talk with Cousins and now he's terrified of taking the slightest risk out there.

With all the high draft equity we have on our starting defense, it'd be great if we had a coach who still felt confident that the defense could hold or force stops/turnovers when the offense takes some risks.

[Mothman]

IMO, this represents a total coaching debacle. How did they manage to take what they had and make it worse?

By hiring a first-time OC and playcaller? Their passing game looks unsophisticated some of the playcalling and play designs are embarrassing. For example, that 2 point conversion attempt yesterday was laughably bad, one of the worst I've ever seen. What made them think that had a snowball's chance in hell of working?

[TSonn]

I know I've been banging this drum for years now but I think Spielman's NFL history backs me up and for that matter, so does Zimmer's. Both men have done some fine work in the NFL but they're not the people on which to pin a franchise's championship hopes. Their past tells us that and their present efforts reinforce it.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it seems like it'd be a good move for the Vikings to find a GM/Coach combo with some offensive chops really soon. If we did that, we essentially used Spielman and Zimmer to put together a bunch of great defensive guys who should still be solid even if we choose an offense-only GM/coach next.

I have a hard time believing a defense with Smith, Rhodes, Waynes, Barr, Kendricks, Griffen, Joseph, and Hunter could ever be a bad defense, even with a coach that ignores that side of the ball (aka the anti-Zimmer). Sure, we'd most likely take a hit in the development of Hughes, Hill, and Alexander, but that's a trade-off we should be willing to take if it means finally getting someone in here who knows how to build/run an offense.

[TSonn]

For example, that 2 point conversion attempt yesterday was laughably bad, one of the worst I've ever seen. What made them think that had a snowball's chance in hell of working?

I think the play was bad but it was definitely accentuated by the fact that Romo called it out in advance. Man, we should hire Romo for either offensive or defensive coordinator (or QB). Must be one of the smartest football minds out there.

The counter to this argument, though, is we've seen some creative designs like the Thielen TD last week where he broke against the grain and used the defense's natural instincts against themselves.

[Mothman]

I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but it seems like it'd be a good move for the Vikings to find a GM/Coach combo with some offensive chops really soon. If we did that, we essentially used Spielman and Zimmer to put together a bunch of great defensive guys who should still be solid even if we choose an offense-only GM/coach next.

I have a hard time believing a defense with Smith, Rhodes, Waynes, Barr, Kendricks, Griffen, Joseph, and Hunter could ever be a bad defense, even with a coach that ignores that side of the ball (aka the anti-Zimmer). Sure, we'd most likely take a hit in the development of Hughes, Hill, and Alexander, but that's a trade-off we should be willing to take if it means finally getting someone in here who knows how to build/run an offense.

If they assembled a good defensive staff they might not even take that hit. I think looking for a head coach with an offensive background makes good sense at this point.

[Purple Domination]

Boy that game was boring. I wasn’t sure if I should be more mad at how bad the Vikings looked or at myself for being excited all week to watch what turned out to be boring as hell.

BUT I’ll throw out a reason for optimism:

We have to remember that we have both GB and CHI at home late in the season. Yes it sucks to start out 0-2 in the division, but both were away games against the top half of the division and they weren’t blow outs. If we split with those teams we’ll be okay. Remember 2017, we were 2-2 to start that year with an ugly loss to the Steelers. Not to mention we were 0-1 in the division at that point with a loss to the Lions (!). Plenty of season to get this talented roster on track. It’s not time to throw in the towel yet.