Vikings/Packers post-game thread

[Mothman]

It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out.

Wow, what a large sample size. One game against an offense that scored more against that scrub Bellicheck the very next week

You've missed the point. It IS a large sample size: in 20 years as a defensive coordinator or head coach that's the only championship appearance. That's 20 years of Mike Zimmer defenses. We all know the term "championship-caliber" isn't a reference to division titles so where are the championship-caliber performances? Not one Zimmer-coached defense has been good enough to win a postseason championship. If I'm not mistaken, in 20 years, only one has even been on the winning end of a postseason game and in that game, they allowed the opponent to take a late lead and were rescued by an amazing walk-off TD.

I've heard all the excuses before and yes, defense is obviously only one aspect of the game but if Zimmer was really capable of fielding defenses that good, you would think at some point in the past two decades one of them would have been good enough to take over a postseason game and define a victory with a great performance. It hasn't happened.

The defense was terrible the first 3 drives, one of which started on the 33, no denying that. It then adjusted to an offense it hadn't seen before, and shut it down, holding the Pack to 0 points after that. That kind of adjustment is something very few defenses, or coaches for that matter, are capable of.

They adjusted well and Zimmer's defenses often adjust well but that's not enough. If the defense is going to be the team's premier unit (and that's how the Vikes have been built) the game plan and performance have to be strong enough to avoid falling behind 21-0 on the first 3 possessions in a crucial division game in week 2. What we saw from the defense yesterday was not championship-caliber football. It's the kind of football that gets results in the mediocrity we've seen from the Vikes for FAR too long.

[J. Kapp 11]

It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long.

EDIT: Maybe we should just refer to Zimmer's defenses as "Wild Card caliber" or "playoff caliber". I'm being facetious but that does seem appropriate!

Zimmer is still calling the defense during the game right? I have to wonder if it would benefit the team for Zimmer to step back and let Edwards have a shot at it. In my opinion a head coach should not be overly involved in one side of the game. The head coach should concentrate on managing the team (players, positions etc) and concentrate on game flow. But, maybe that is why Kubiak was hired?

This is a good observation.

First of all, this lack of defensive prowess at the beginning of the game happened during the week prior to the game. Almost every team scripts its initial plays, and the Packers obviously had our number. Honestly, this isn't the first time it's happened. The Vikings, when they have a bad defensive day, typically start poorly and adjust. It's very possible that it's a Zimmer weakness. He's good at adjusting, but how about game-planning?

There are pros and cons to someone else calling the defense.

The pros are that Zimmer could help concentrate on other areas of the team. What can a defensive coach do for an offense? Well, he can break down what his team's offense and tell the OC how he would attack it. Zimmer probably does that during the week, but he could do it during the game. One of Zimmer's great strengths, in my opinion, is his ability to adjust the defense in-game. Yes, there are instances where the Vikings haven't adjusted, but those are rare. He could help a struggling offense identify what the defense is doing, so that THEY could adjust.

The biggest con is that it's possible George Edwards isn't as good at in-game adjustments as Zimmer is.

That being said, I'm never in favor of an overall leader getting super involved with one area of leadership. The overall person in charge needs the 10,000-foot view, and getting down in the weeds in one area prevents that person from seeing the big picture.

Unfortunately, it's not going to change while Zimmer is here. And even if it did, he'd probably switch it back, the way Dan Quinn did in Atlanta, Andy Reid in Philly, etc., etc. These guys have too much pride (hubris?) to believe anyone else can do it as well as they can.

[Cliff]

Zimmer is still calling the defense during the game right? I have to wonder if it would benefit the team for Zimmer to step back and let Edwards have a shot at it. In my opinion a head coach should not be overly involved in one side of the game. The head coach should concentrate on managing the team (players, positions etc) and concentrate on game flow. But, maybe that is why Kubiak was hired?

Zimmer as a head coach has basically been to continue to be a defensive coordinator and hope the offense falls into place. He wants to run the defense but kind of keep an eye on the offense and if things start going poorly to put in his two cents after the fact. That was obviously the plan with Norv Turner and that trend has continued. If Zim was calling the shots *at all* for the offense last year do you think we would have seen all that passing? Please. As soon as it looked like he might have to play a bigger role in the offense what does he do? Brings in Kubiak.

It's good to know your weaknesses and rely on someone that can do the job better if need be. I'm ok with that, I think. Things being what they are though, I don't expect Zimmer to hand over play calling duties any time soon. He is basically the Vikings defensive coordinator.

[Mothman]

First of all, this lack of defensive prowess at the beginning of the game happened during the week prior to the game. Almost every team scripts its initial plays, and the Packers obviously had our number. Honestly, this isn't the first time it's happened. The Vikings, when they have a bad defensive day, typically start poorly and adjust. It's very possible that it's a Zimmer weakness. He's good at adjusting, but how about game-planning?

Excellent point. I was thinking about the same thing this morning. It's a bit of a pattern with Zimmer's Viking defenses. They tend to adjust well but if memory serves, it's not unusual for teams to move the ball well and score on them early. That could very well point to a game-planning problem.

[StumpHunter]

By my rules they have averaged giving up 16.5 points per game, not just 3 quarters, have turned the ball over multiple times in each game, and have done so against two top 10 QBs. If I told you they would do that before the season started you would be ecstatic about our defense.

I'll be ecstatic and join you as a true believer when I see this defense come out and consistently play for 4 quarters.

I think it goes without saying that those stats alone aren't providing the whole picture. The results of too many games illustrate that clearly.

No they aren't you are correct. Atlanta probably doesn't score if the Vikings don't have a huge lead and the defense lets up. The Packers maybe only score 14 if the QB doesn't give them the ball on the 33.

Thank you for pointing that out.

[StumpHunter]

Wow, what a large sample size. One game against an offense that scored more against that scrub Bellicheck the very next week

You've missed the point. It IS a large sample size: in 20 years as a defensive coordinator or head coach that's the only championship appearance. That's 20 years of Mike Zimmer defenses. We all know the term "championship-caliber" isn't a reference to division titles so where are the championship-caliber performances? Not one Zimmer-coached defense has been good enough to win a postseason championship. If I'm not mistaken, in 20 years, only one has even been on the winning end of a postseason game and in that game, they allowed the opponent to take a late lead and were rescued by an amazing walk-off TD.

I've heard all the excuses before and yes, defense is obviously only one aspect of the game but if Zimmer was really capable of fielding defenses that good, you would think at some point in the past two decades one of them would have been good enough to take over a postseason game and define a victory with a great performance. It hasn't happened.

The defense was terrible the first 3 drives, one of which started on the 33, no denying that. It then adjusted to an offense it hadn't seen before, and shut it down, holding the Pack to 0 points after that. That kind of adjustment is something very few defenses, or coaches for that matter, are capable of.

They adjusted well and Zimmer's defenses often adjust well but that's not enough. If the defense is going to be the team's premier unit (and that's how the Vikes have been built) the game plan and performance have to be strong enough to avoid falling behind 21-0 on the first 3 possessions in a crucial division game in week 2. What we saw from the defense yesterday was not championship-caliber football. It's the kind of football that gets results in the mediocrity we've seen from the Vikes for FAR too long.

Yep defense is only one half. When has he had a championship caliber offense? One year with a backup QB? He is responsible for that half too, or at least has been for going on 6 seasons now, but has he had the talent to work with on that side of the ball?

[VikingLord]

I'll be ecstatic and join you as a true believer when I see this defense come out and consistently play for 4 quarters.

I think it goes without saying that those stats alone aren't providing the whole picture. The results of too many games illustrate that clearly.

No they aren't you are correct. Atlanta probably doesn't score if the Vikings don't have a huge lead and the defense lets up. The Packers maybe only score 14 if the QB doesn't give them the ball on the 33.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Stump, just do me a favor - don't call out someone for being an apologist unless you are not going to be one either.

[Mothman]

No they aren't you are correct. Atlanta probably doesn't score if the Vikings don't have a huge lead and the defense lets up. The Packers maybe only score 14 if the QB doesn't give them the ball on the 33.

Oh, come on... they turned it over at the 33, not the 5 and they scored 7, not 3. Fans have been making excuses like this for Zimmer's defenses for years now. A turnover outside of the red zone doesn't automatically equal points, and certainly not a TD. Shifting blame to the offense is just that: shifting blame. The offense put the defense in a bad position, with only 33 yards to defend. The defense gave up all 33 yards. Isn't that exactly the kind of situation where a "championship-caliber" defense needs to step up and make a stop to prevent an early 3 TD deficit?

[Cliff]

Yep defense is only one half. When has he had a championship caliber offense? One year with a backup QB? He is responsible for that half too, or at least has been for going on 6 seasons now, but has he had the talent to work with on that side of the ball?

It's not just the final scores. Forget whether or not the team he was coaching won or lost. Look specifically at the defensive performances in the playoffs. His *defenses* not just teams, have done terrible in the playoffs.

[TSonn]

I avoided coming to this board over the past year because of all the Cousins haters but I am now one of them. So I'm back. Cousins sucks until he proves me otherwise... not the other way around anymore. But the silver lining (if it could be considered that) is that Keenum would've thrown that exact same pass and Teddy still looks terrible even with the Saints offense around him so I can't say we necessarily made the wrong decision.

Anyway... can we bring in Bradford? Seriously. I'll take broken knees all day over a broken head.

Cousins is a vet, and as a vet he has to understand down-distance-situation. No need to force a pass on 1st-and-goal in that situation. Just no need. Throw it away and come back for second down.

But going farther, why is the Vikings OC calling a pass there? Why not just run? The run was working. Give it another shot and see if you can punch it in. It's first and goal.

Cousins deserves blame for playing like a rookie there and forcing it, but the OC didn't do himself any favors either.

I don't mind the call there. I yelled at the TV many times yesterday "why don't you do play action on first down!?". Sure, we were running great but that's how you use the run to set up the pass.

Also - after the game, Kirk made it sound like he was trying to throw it to a spot where only Diggs could get it (back corner of the endzone) - so I think in his mind he was 50% trying to throw it away and 50% trying to give Diggs a chance. Unfortunately he 100% misjudged his own arm talent to make that throw. So not only was it a terrible decision, our QB also doesn't have the arm he thinks he does.

[StumpHunter]

First of all, this lack of defensive prowess at the beginning of the game happened during the week prior to the game. Almost every team scripts its initial plays, and the Packers obviously had our number. Honestly, this isn't the first time it's happened. The Vikings, when they have a bad defensive day, typically start poorly and adjust. It's very possible that it's a Zimmer weakness. He's good at adjusting, but how about game-planning?

Excellent point. I was thinking about the same thing this morning. It's a bit of a pattern with Zimmer's Viking defenses. They tend to adjust well but if memory serves, it's not unusual for teams to move the ball well and score on them early. That could very well point to a game-planning problem.

How was he supposed to game plan for something he had never seen before?

[Mothman]

Yep defense is only one half. When has he had a championship caliber offense?

Where's the dominant defensive performance that carries a sub-par offense to a postseason win, even once? Where's any evidence in his 20 years as a coordinator and OC that we should expect postseason success from a Zimmer-coached defense or team?

We could go around and around about this but the bottom line is Zimmer's never had a defense actually earn the designation of "championship-caliber". Never.

[TSonn]

Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.

Yes. Now that PI is reviewable the refs can basically take away any passing TD they'd like. I'm not a conspiracy type of guy, but that's just a lot of potential for foul play. Our TD that got overturned was terrible for multiple reasons - 1. Cook wasn't blocking. 2. The defense made contact with Cook past 5 yards. 3. It most likely didn't even effect the play. Compound those with the fact that the announcers and Dean Blandino disagreed with the call it was just terrible overall.

I'd like to go back on the all-22 and look at the Packers TD scores and nitpick to find an offensive PI on each of them because I'm sure they're there just as much or more than what Cook did.

Moreover, Kirk threw a terrible ball, but there was some questionable contact on Diggs on that INT that could have very well been defensive PI. Also - how was that INT even a catch? It didn't seem like they even "reviewed" that INT at all and there was a lot to look at (defensive PI and was it a catch).

When was the last time a game had 4 offensive PI calls and 0 defensive PI calls? I'm guessing never?

[mansquatch]

No they aren't you are correct. Atlanta probably doesn't score if the Vikings don't have a huge lead and the defense lets up. The Packers maybe only score 14 if the QB doesn't give them the ball on the 33.

Oh, come on... they turned it over at the 33, not the 5 and they scored 7, not 3. Fans have been making excuses like this for Zimmer's defenses for years now. A turnover outside of the red zone doesn't automatically equal points, and certainly not a TD. Shifting blame to the offense is just that: shifting blame. The offense put the defense in a bad position, with only 33 yards to defend. The defense gave up all 33 yards. Isn't that exactly the kind of situation where a "championship-caliber" defense needs to step up and make a stop to prevent an early 3 TD deficit?

In this particular circumstance the defense was reeling, having just giving up two consecutive TD drives. The offense gave them maybe a 20 second breather and then they are back out defending a short field with almost no time to make any needed adjustments to how the opposing offense was beating them. That might not equal 7 points but it isn't far from it. Once the offense actually put together a meaningful possession the defense had time to adjust and then Green Bay never found the scoreboard again, but the damage was done.

The defensive staff deserves blame for coming into this game so flat, there is no denying that. But the short field on the last TD they gave up wasn't just on them, the offense deserves a lot of credit on that one. Overall, that was probably the worst possible situation for them to find themselves at that point in the game. Don't get me wrong, I would argue that this was one of, if not the worst, 1st quarters we've ever seen a Zimmer team play, at least in recent memory. No excuse for it, not when you are going on the road against our biggest rival.

[J. Kapp 11]

Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.

Yes. Now that PI is reviewable the refs can basically take away any passing TD they'd like. I'm not a conspiracy type of guy, but that's just a lot of potential for foul play. Our TD that got overturned was terrible for multiple reasons - 1. Cook wasn't blocking. 2. The defense made contact with Cook past 5 yards. 3. It most likely didn't even effect the play. Compound those with the fact that the announcers and Dean Blandino disagreed with the call it was just terrible overall.

I'd like to go back on the all-22 and look at the Packers TD scores and nitpick to find an offensive PI on each of them because I'm sure they're there just as much or more than what Cook did.

Moreover, Kirk threw a terrible ball, but there was some questionable contact on Diggs on that INT that could have very well been defensive PI. Also - how was that INT even a catch? It didn't seem like they even "reviewed" that INT at all and there was a lot to look at (defensive PI and was it a catch).

When was the last time a game had 4 offensive PI calls and 0 defensive PI calls? I'm guessing never?

If we're honest, even the OPI call on Green Bay's tight end was a bogus call.

The NFL has a problem. They've allowed the officials to become the focal point of the game.