Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by Mothman »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:07 amThe problem goes way beyond Cousins. This is Zimmer, this is the team leadership, this is the Minnesota Vikings of the late 2010's. Good enough to be right there, but when it matters, when they have to step up, they'll fold. They're like the team version of Leroy Hoard - if you need 2 yards they'll get you 3, if you need 5 yards they'll get you 3. Hoard could produce some exciting runs and was an effective running back, but he wasn't a game changer. These Vikings of Mike Zimmer are the team version of Leroy Hoard.

Blame Cousins till the cows come home, but you put almost any other QB behind center on this team and you'll get the same result. The QB doesn't play defense. He doesn't play special teams. He doesn't drop passes, and he doesn't control the blind monkey review refs in New York. He doesn't prepare the team for games and doesn't control the overall offensive strategy or determine what adjustments get made and when they get made. That's not being an apologist for Cousins, either. He stunk on his own today, and it's pretty clear if the Vikings need to rely on him to win games they're going to lose a lot more than they win. It's just at this point, with this much experience and continuity on the team, it shouldn't come down to Cousins. The fact that it still is, is a damning indictment on the rest of the team, from the coaches on down in every phase of the game.
Excellent overall post.

You're right: this team looks much like last year's team and that's hardly surprising. 5+ years into the Zimmer/Spielman era, we've likely seen what we're going to get. Zimmer's approach appears to have a ceiling. Spielman's approach to team-building has one too. Both seem likely to fall well short of the Super Bowl aspirations the Vikings have and the longer the team sticks with this leadership, the longer we'll probably be frustrated by competitive (sometimes winning) teams perpetually in search of the right quarterback, unprepared for several big games a year, good enough to generate excitement but not good enough to go the distance.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by TSonn »

Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 amDefense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.
It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long. :)
I think it was pretty telling when Zimmer basically blamed the early Packer scores on being short a DB. The defense literally brought everyone back (switching Richardson for Johnson) and all it takes is an injury to one guy (our 3rd best CB) for the defense to cave? They've spent so many first and second day draft picks on that defense that's it pretty sad that all it takes is 1 guy to get injured to become extremely vulnerable.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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TSonn wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:47 am I think it was pretty telling when Zimmer basically blamed the early Packer scores on being short a DB. The defense literally brought everyone back (switching Richardson for Johnson) and all it takes is an injury to one guy (our 3rd best CB) for the defense to cave? They've spent so many first and second day draft picks on that defense that's it pretty sad that all it takes is 1 guy to get injured to become extremely vulnerable.
Yes, almost as if to say to fans and media: "Now do you see why I want to devote draft capital to DBs?" A told you so kind of frustration.

Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Texas Vike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:03 amYes, almost as if to say to fans and media: "Now do you see why I want to devote draft capital to DBs?" A told you so kind of frustration.

Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.
I think I reached peak disillusionment with NFL officiating after the officials screwed the Saints in the NFC championship game with that crucial non-call on a blatant pass interference penalty. That likely deprived them of a Super Bowl appearance. I know many Vikes fans rejoiced in that because they dislike the Saints but it was bad for the sport. The reversal of Diggs TD on that touchy call against Cook is bad for it too. Yesterday's Vikings game was filled with bad calls and once again, I'm seeing that around the league so far this season. Combine that with a rulebook that's too complex in the first place and it's all making the sport less enjoyable.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by CharVike »

TSonn wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:47 am
Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 am

It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long. :)
I think it was pretty telling when Zimmer basically blamed the early Packer scores on being short a DB. The defense literally brought everyone back (switching Richardson for Johnson) and all it takes is an injury to one guy (our 3rd best CB) for the defense to cave? They've spent so many first and second day draft picks on that defense that's it pretty sad that all it takes is 1 guy to get injured to become extremely vulnerable.
In fairness our CB depth sucks right now. Injuries and suspension hasn't helped. Some have pointed out before the season that we needed to hang in there early. We are 1-1 which is ok at this point. The Pack are a 2-0 team and Atlanta isn't a joke either. But our D didn't hang on. They were shredded right from the start and didn't stiffen at the end either. Green Bay has a QB and seem to be playing better D. At least so far. We tied them last year and a matter of fact we played them better last year. Mistakes done us in also. You can't turn the ball over. That's why I preach TOs. Get them but don't give them.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by mansquatch »

Cousins is the obvious target here and I'll get to him, but there is more blame to go around.

How did our defense manage to look that bad for 3 drives early? We are not going to win many games starting out behind 21-0. I know they had injuries in the secondary, but this is Mike's 6th season as Vikings HC. He knows what Rogers is going to bring to the table. They eventually adjusted, but by then the damage was done. As bad as Cousins was, to me this was the most egregious part of the game. Defense is supposed to be ahead of offense at this stage of the season and our D looked like crap in the 1st quarter yesterday.

As for Cousins I feel bad for the guy in the sense that his defense put him in a really tough spot. However, that only goes so far. The guy needs to do a better job of protecting the football.

I will say that at this stage I'm cutting the O a bit of slack as it is only week 2. I think they put a ton of time in the preseason into implementing the zone blocking and running game scheme and the passing game probably took a bit of a back burner. It obviously isn't as sharp as it needs to be. (This is common across most of the league, it isn't just us.)

That loss stunk, but it is what it is. We need to see a game of competent passing against Oakland. We need to beat CHI to keep pressure on the Packers.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 am Defense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.
You have the gall to call out someone as being a Cousins' apologist while in literally the next breath doing the exact same thing for the Vikings defense?

So, in your view the definition of a great defense is one that gives up 3 TDs on three drives to open a game? Or doesn't get off the field late in a game to give the offense one last chance?

And this performance yesterday when put in *context* doesn't alarm you? This same scenario played out over and over and over with this defense last year too. 3 quarters of defense doesn't cut it if the game lasts 4 quarters. It never has, and it never will.

Just don't be a hypocrite - you want to say Cousins sucked and cost them the game with a few bad plays, fine, but so did "The best 3 quarter defense in NFL history", at least in my opinion.
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 am The officiating is what it is. The Packers will always get the calls when we play them, there is nothing we can do about it. Even with pretty much every call going against us, that game was winnable at the end, which just goes to show just how good this team is. Or how bad the Packers are. I am good with either one honestly.
My problem is, this wasn't just the refs. That play is supposedly being reviewed in New York and someone there is introducing something into the play that wasn't noticed or called on the field and wasn't clear and obvious. You think that should just be shrugged off?
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 am So for the most part this game showed us that we have a very talented team minus the QB and kicker. There are a ton of positives to take away from it, and I actually feel better about the team today than I did before the game. Of course, I knew the QB wasn't good enough and didn't need this game to tell me otherwise, just like I knew the kicker was still the same one we had last year. I had reasonable expectations for those two, and so I am not disappointed like others apparently are, when they fail.
This is last year's team. Good, but not great, and that is in every facet of the game.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:09 am
CharVike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:59 am As I have said many times TOs are key...I said before the season started these 1st two games will tell me what our D is. I don't see a top 5.
I am confused, after the first two games they are likely top 5 in both takeaways and points given up. By the rules YOU put out there for what makes a great D, they are top 5.

I am beginning to think that the Vikings never have and never will have a good enough defense to meet your standards.
By your rules they apparently have the best 3 quarter defense in NFL history.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by VikingLord »

TSonn wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:10 am I avoided coming to this board over the past year because of all the Cousins haters but I am now one of them. So I'm back. Cousins sucks until he proves me otherwise... not the other way around anymore. But the silver lining (if it could be considered that) is that Keenum would've thrown that exact same pass and Teddy still looks terrible even with the Saints offense around him so I can't say we necessarily made the wrong decision.

Anyway... can we bring in Bradford? Seriously. I'll take broken knees all day over a broken head.
Cousins is a vet, and as a vet he has to understand down-distance-situation. No need to force a pass on 1st-and-goal in that situation. Just no need. Throw it away and come back for second down.

But going farther, why is the Vikings OC calling a pass there? Why not just run? The run was working. Give it another shot and see if you can punch it in. It's first and goal.

Cousins deserves blame for playing like a rookie there and forcing it, but the OC didn't do himself any favors either.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 amDefense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.
It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out.
Wow, what a large sample size. One game against an offense that scored more against that scrub Bellicheck the very next week.

The defense was terrible the first 3 drives, one of which started on the 33, no denying that. It then adjusted to an offense it hadn't seen before, and shut it down, holding the Pack to 0 points after that. That kind of adjustment is something very few defenses, or coaches for that matter, are capable of.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by mansquatch »

Texas Vike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:03 am
Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.
This is part (a really stupid part...) of September in the NFL. Last year it was all the roughing the passer garbage. This year it is the PI crap. That is one of the reasons I'm less worried about this loss than I would be if it had happened a month from now. It was a stupid loss for sure, but at this point a lot of it was stuff that should get sharpened up with time. To me what is more aggravating is that, especially of defense, this stuff is even an issue. The defense is full of vets, that 1st quarter shouldn't happen. Cousins is a vet also, and that 4th quarter end zone INT was just embarrassing. I'm sure he knows that, but good grief it was painful to watch.

They are not going to win many games against any NFL team if they spot them a 21 point lead in the 1st quarter.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by 9man »

Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 amDefense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.
It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long. :)

EDIT: Maybe we should just refer to Zimmer's defenses as "Wild Card caliber" or "playoff caliber". I'm being facetious but that does seem appropriate!
Zimmer is still calling the defense during the game right? I have to wonder if it would benefit the team for Zimmer to step back and let Edwards have a shot at it. In my opinion a head coach should not be overly involved in one side of the game. The head coach should concentrate on managing the team (players, positions etc) and concentrate on game flow. But, maybe that is why Kubiak was hired?
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by J. Kapp 11 »

Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:10 am
Texas Vike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:03 amYes, almost as if to say to fans and media: "Now do you see why I want to devote draft capital to DBs?" A told you so kind of frustration.

Anyone else disillusioned with the NFL overall after yesterday? I found that scenario of removing what was ruled a TD on the field due to a very questionable decision made by replay reviewers to be deeply troubling. I don't love that Diggs reacted the way he did after his TD, but I totally empathize with it. These guys work way too hard to have their efforts undermined by completely arbitrary, unjust decisions. Furthermore, the OPI booth review wasn't the only questionable call yesterday. Even the commentators noted how one-sided the calls felt yesterday.
I think I reached peak disillusionment with NFL officiating after the officials screwed the Saints in the NFC championship game with that crucial non-call on a blatant pass interference penalty. That likely deprived them of a Super Bowl appearance. I know many Vikes fans rejoiced in that because they dislike the Saints but it was bad for the sport. The reversal of Diggs TD on that touchy call against Cook is bad for it too. Yesterday's Vikings game was filled with bad calls and once again, I'm seeing that around the league so far this season. Combine that with a rulebook that's too complex in the first place and it's all making the sport less enjoyable.
You hit the nail on the head here.

The Saints game last year was poetic justice as far as I was concerned. In 2009, we absolutely got screwed, which cost US a trip to the Super Bowl. I won't go into all the instances in that game where it was obvious the league was in concert with the entire post-Katrina "we love you New Orleans" campaign, but it was blatant. Even ESPN, which has never shied away from its love for the Saints, said as much in its postgame analysis.

THAT BEING SAID ... the non-call in last year's NFCC Game was definitely bad for the NFL. The league did what it always does ... to overreact and add another layer of confusion, rather than correct the poor officiating. That led DIRECTLY to the call yesterday. As you said, this won't be the last time.

I could go on and on about the NFL's inconsistency. Just the fact that Antonio Brown was in uniform yesterday ... it makes my blood boil. Adrian Peterson punishes his child in the same way he was punished, and he's put on the exempt list for a year. What he did wasn't right, but it's more understandable than someone sexually assaulting a woman. Do we know Brown did this? No. But there are plenty of other cases where the NFL has suspended a player before anything had played out in the courts. Same with Tyreek Hill. I don't care what the league says it could prove or couldn't prove. The kid SAID his dad broke his arm. There's audio of him threatening the child's mother. And what is the outcome? Three years and $54 million.

My point? There is no consistency in the modern-day NFL. Not in the area of behavior, and not in the rules.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by StumpHunter »

VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:19 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:09 am

I am confused, after the first two games they are likely top 5 in both takeaways and points given up. By the rules YOU put out there for what makes a great D, they are top 5.

I am beginning to think that the Vikings never have and never will have a good enough defense to meet your standards.
By your rules they apparently have the best 3 quarter defense in NFL history.
By my rules they have averaged giving up 16.5 points per game, not just 3 quarters, have turned the ball over multiple times in each game, and have done so against two top 10 QBs. If I told you they would do that before the season started you would be ecstatic about our defense.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by VikingLord »

StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:26 am
VikingLord wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:19 am

By your rules they apparently have the best 3 quarter defense in NFL history.
By my rules they have averaged giving up 16.5 points per game, not just 3 quarters, have turned the ball over multiple times in each game, and have done so against two top 10 QBs. If I told you they would do that before the season started you would be ecstatic about our defense.
I'll be ecstatic and join you as a true believer when I see this defense come out and consistently play for 4 quarters.

I think it goes without saying that those stats alone aren't providing the whole picture. The results of too many games illustrate that clearly.
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