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i like the idea of Donatello myself. I think he'd be great at teaching Ninja moves that would translate to the NFL.
Who hired the woman? Sounds like they didn’t take your advice of hiring the best staff.JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:43 pmI just believe you get the position by merit. I was a manger once and it was so hard. All the rules you had to follow. Like hiring a women to run a folder, and she couldnt move the paper over to it alone. Or empty it. Or lift up 20 pound rollers to get underneath and clear up jams. She had to have help for everything. Always interrupting people who were all ready working on something. Its one thing to help someone, its entirely different when you want them to get half of your work done for you.vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:03 pm
I understand your point, and obviously results matter. I just think fans in general put way too much emphasis simply on if a defense or offense was lights out with their coordinators. Players are important. Players who fit the system are even more important. Coaches don't simply forget how to coach. It's why you see coordinators with very good units, and then poor units. Sure, it's their jobs to get the most out of what they have. But if you don't have the Joes, the X's and O's become less of a factor.
This isn't a dig on you. Just my general opinion when coaching and coordinator hires come up. Same reason guys like Leslie Frazier was a great DC. Gets a head coaching job that by all accounts was pretty mediocre. Gets fired, and as it usually goes gets another DC job. He's doing excellent for the Bills (who have great players and a great defense) and now his name is being mentioned as a possible head coach again.
Just something I always find interesting is all.
The boss vetoed my idea and hired her. She quickly moved to Quality Control, which she was very good at. Bad news was we didnt need another QC. She made twice as much as the folks in the bindery. The boss knew it would be cheaper to hire her then take her to court. She lived 1 block away from our builds, which is why she stepped in.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:38 pmWho hired the woman? Sounds like they didn’t take your advice of hiring the best staff.JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:43 pm
I just believe you get the position by merit. I was a manger once and it was so hard. All the rules you had to follow. Like hiring a women to run a folder, and she couldnt move the paper over to it alone. Or empty it. Or lift up 20 pound rollers to get underneath and clear up jams. She had to have help for everything. Always interrupting people who were all ready working on something. Its one thing to help someone, its entirely different when you want them to get half of your work done for you.
I’m a big believer in hiring based on merit, too. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t necessarily work that way. I’ve seen it — and been on the short end of it — far too many times. It appears you have, too.JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:10 pmThe boss vetoed my idea and hired her. She quickly moved to Quality Control, which she was very good at. Bad news was we didnt need another QC. She made twice as much as the folks in the bindery. The boss knew it would be cheaper to hire her then take her to court. She lived 1 block away from our builds, which is why she stepped in.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:38 pm
Who hired the woman? Sounds like they didn’t take your advice of hiring the best staff.
Good points all. I think one of the things fans loose sight of is that every NFL team is a workplace full of (in most cases mature) adults. When coaches have personal vendettas against the GM and front office and pretty much ignores most of the current years draft class and such it affects morale. Teams can draft and sign the best players but the toxic environment sabotages their prospects for success.vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:57 pmOh I totally agree. I think we're actually kind of saying the same thing.JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:43 pm
I just believe you get the position by merit. I was a manger once and it was so hard. All the rules you had to follow. Like hiring a women to run a folder, and she couldnt move the paper over to it alone. Or empty it. Or lift up 20 pound rollers to get underneath and clear up jams. She had to have help for everything. Always interrupting people who were all ready working on something. Its one thing to help someone, its entirely different when you want them to get half of your work done for you.
I am a business owner with bars and liquor stores in Montana. It's probably why I have the opinions I do. From the outside looking in, business is thriving. I have had the number one selling liquor store in the entire state for 10+ years in a row. Business has never been better. Thanks Covid!
But internally, it's never as easy as we make it look with a good staff. And it's never been as bad as it may look when we're short-staffed and dealing with never-ending supply chain issues. Sometimes my staff makes me look brilliant because they are so good. Sometimes my hands are a bit tied because finding quality people is difficult. But the business plan has never changed.
I feel this is the case with any job you can think of. Sports are just different because it's one of the few jobs that everyone has an interest in. And politics I suppose. No one cares about the owner of a liquor store. If someone came in here and I was short-staffed and out of product they may walk away thinking this is the worst store they've stepped foot in. However, when supply chains come back and people decide to work again, we run a tight ship and people rave about us. But I need good people, and everything to run smooth for that to happen. One kink in the chain can make a business look bad. Sports are no different. If a guy has studs on the roster that buy into the system, his offense/defense can look excellent and he in turn looks like a coordinator of the year. If there is turmoil in the ranks, little cohesion, and injuries to boot, suddenly that same guy doing the same things can look incompetent.
Great points.StanM wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:04 amGood points all. I think one of the things fans loose sight of is that every NFL team is a workplace full of (in most cases mature) adults. When coaches have personal vendettas against the GM and front office and pretty much ignores most of the current years draft class and such it affects morale. Teams can draft and sign the best players but the toxic environment sabotages their prospects for success.vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:57 pm
Oh I totally agree. I think we're actually kind of saying the same thing.
I am a business owner with bars and liquor stores in Montana. It's probably why I have the opinions I do. From the outside looking in, business is thriving. I have had the number one selling liquor store in the entire state for 10+ years in a row. Business has never been better. Thanks Covid!
But internally, it's never as easy as we make it look with a good staff. And it's never been as bad as it may look when we're short-staffed and dealing with never-ending supply chain issues. Sometimes my staff makes me look brilliant because they are so good. Sometimes my hands are a bit tied because finding quality people is difficult. But the business plan has never changed.
I feel this is the case with any job you can think of. Sports are just different because it's one of the few jobs that everyone has an interest in. And politics I suppose. No one cares about the owner of a liquor store. If someone came in here and I was short-staffed and out of product they may walk away thinking this is the worst store they've stepped foot in. However, when supply chains come back and people decide to work again, we run a tight ship and people rave about us. But I need good people, and everything to run smooth for that to happen. One kink in the chain can make a business look bad. Sports are no different. If a guy has studs on the roster that buy into the system, his offense/defense can look excellent and he in turn looks like a coordinator of the year. If there is turmoil in the ranks, little cohesion, and injuries to boot, suddenly that same guy doing the same things can look incompetent.
I am eager for the details of what exactly was going on up to the firings. Granted that situation is over but I would feel more confident that new coaching will succeed if we knew what was going on behind closed doors. I think that this is one of the reasons ownership is looking to improve company morale and never fall into that kind of toxic situation. Really, when a coach and GM are not speaking that is an extreme situation that the players are going to know. We may never know but it must have been toxic.
I do not like that but at least he is not the defensive coordinator
Generally, I don't think meritocracy is really possible. It's a necessary mythology when you get to 'communities' that exist in massive scale, but everyone knows its not really how its going to work. Sports is about the close as it gets, but even there you'll have nepotism and all kinds of bias and familiarity playing into things. I have no problem with that. Meritocracy is a fraud, and the real problem of injustice is inherent to operating things at the massive scale we've come to view as normal in modernity. We can try a million ways to resolve that 'problem', but the problem is that the mythology of merit is false, and we won't solve that until we subscribe to a true mythology.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:36 pmI’m a big believer in hiring based on merit, too. Unfortunately, the world doesn’t necessarily work that way. I’ve seen it — and been on the short end of it — far too many times. It appears you have, too.JJBreaksRecords wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:10 pm
The boss vetoed my idea and hired her. She quickly moved to Quality Control, which she was very good at. Bad news was we didnt need another QC. She made twice as much as the folks in the bindery. The boss knew it would be cheaper to hire her then take her to court. She lived 1 block away from our builds, which is why she stepped in.
Let’s hope KAM believes in a meritocracy.
I retired from an office job a few years ago and used to have to go to the team building workshops. I have heard those types of descriptions of leadership qualities. It must have gotten pretty bad and ownership is out of state and has to depend on leadership in the building. They were likely caught off guard by what was going on and don’t want anything like that to happen again. Some have suggested that the Wilfs should be located here but I’m sure their other business interests are more lucrative and require a daily presence. It turned into a mess and had to be embarrassing to lose control like they did.J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:37 amGreat points.StanM wrote: ↑Fri Feb 11, 2022 9:04 am
Good points all. I think one of the things fans loose sight of is that every NFL team is a workplace full of (in most cases mature) adults. When coaches have personal vendettas against the GM and front office and pretty much ignores most of the current years draft class and such it affects morale. Teams can draft and sign the best players but the toxic environment sabotages their prospects for success.
I am eager for the details of what exactly was going on up to the firings. Granted that situation is over but I would feel more confident that new coaching will succeed if we knew what was going on behind closed doors. I think that this is one of the reasons ownership is looking to improve company morale and never fall into that kind of toxic situation. Really, when a coach and GM are not speaking that is an extreme situation that the players are going to know. We may never know but it must have been toxic.
There’s a well-renowned leadership expert who says there are 6 types of leaders. Four are bad, one is good, and one is the gold standard.
One of the bad ones is the Domineering Leader. He says the Domineering Leader produces compliant followers. In other words, the followers blindly do what they’re told they’re afraid of the consequences. Domineering leaders work for awhile. Things improve in the short term because the team is doing what they’re supposed to be doing, and it’s better than what they were doing.
But domineering leaders eventually fail, and it’s for one important reason … compliant followers are not COMMITTED followers. The followers figure out that the sun will still rise if they don’t do what the domineering leader yells at them to do, so they start to defy the leader, either in secret or in the open if things get bad enough. In other words, they get tired of the brow beating, and they give up.
Could anything more accurately describe Mike Zimmer than Domineering Leader? How many times in the last three years did he tell the media, “I keep telling them to do this, but they don’t listen”?
The best type of leader is the Empowering Leader. An Empowering Leader creates OTHER LEADERS. Empowering leaders create a culture of commitment because everybody is bought in. It’s not “all decisions made on consensus.” It’s that everybody has the ability to make decisions within the realm of their job.
Domineering Leaders don’t create other leaders. Case in point … Kirk Cousins. We rip on Cousins for his leadership, but how can he be a leader if he’s not even allowed to call time out during a 2-minute drill? Or if he can’t change the play at the line? Or if he’s yelled at for taking any kind of risk?
Kevin O’Connell’s offense is based on using personnel, formations, motions and shifts to expose the defense’s soft spots, then relying on the quarterback to make the call at the line to put the offense in the best play. How much more empowering can a system be?
The culture in Minnesota is going to change … and for the good. No more throwing players under the bus. No more everybody in the building avoiding the head coach, as has been widely reported about Zimmer. There will be more synergy and playing for each other. Even the hiring of Ed Donatell … the first thing I heard about him, from a Denver reporter, was that he’s a great guy.
You guys who believe football players only respond to being yelled at … sorry, but you’re wrong. It works in high school because the followers are basically children. It works in college because the players only have to put up with it for a couple of years … and now they can transfer freely. But it doesn’t work with professional athletes. I’m not talking touchy feely. I’m talking about respecting players as men, not just treating them like idiots who should be doing what they’re told. I may be a cockeyed optimist, but I’m excited for the future.
How do they avoid that though? If they hire people and don't talk to those people on a regular basis, or don't get the honest truth about what is going on when they do, is it enough to just hire different people? By all accounts the Wilfs had a good relationship with Rick Spielman. I think it stretches belief that he would have not been open about what was going on and the Wilfs were fully aware of it. By most accounts, Mark Wilf has been very involved with the team at multiple levels on an ongoing basis.