Vikings Message Board.Com

smoothoperator wrote:agree with the above. im getting beyond tired of us running the ball on first down every time as we have ever since we got ap

As I posted here or in another thread, the Vikings pass the 4th most in the league on first down through two weeks. I know it seems like they run much more, but this season that's not been the case.

its the receivers job to get yards after the catch, that number is pretty much pointless.

really? certainly does not seem that way. never mind then

Crax wrote: I don't recall anyone saying he is worse than last year. He was pretty bad last year. People are saying things like "great" and "awesome" in regards to ponder though. We just played what could be the 2 easiest games on our schedule. If we're going to gush over him completing quick 3 yard passes, let's make sure we remember that completion % is only one piece of the bigger picture. As you just mentioned, he's right in the middle for yards and closer towards the bottom for 20yards+. In fact, he's tied for 29th/30th for % of attempts beyond 15 yards. It could be musgrave isn't calling anything beyond 5 yards, but it's hard to know on that.
It may not matter to some, but for what it's worth, Ponder has had a negative grade in both games so far from PFF. This next sentence is pretty crazy when you think about: So, big ups to Percy Harvin. I think we all knew he was good already.

you have completed ignored one of the most important aspects when judging a QB, 2 min offense, 4th quarter and overtime play. Im guessing you don't think Eli Manning is very good. If you want to see how important it is, go back and watch the 4th quarters of the NY Giants playoff games last year.

dead_poet wrote: As I posted here or in another thread, the Vikings pass the 4th most in the league on first down through two weeks. I know it seems like they run much more, but this season that's not been the case.

I'd be curious, though, to see how the Vikings compare early in games as opposed to late.

Yesterday was just brutal. We ran the ball on 16 of the first 23 plays. Sure, we ended up throwing a lot on first down for the entire game, but part of the reason was that we were throwing on EVERY down in the fourth quarter. We have almost zero big plays, so we have to get a lot of first downs to score.

yesmanfan wrote:
you have completed ignored one of the most important aspects when judging a QB, 2 min offense, 4th quarter and overtime play. Im guessing you don't think Eli Manning is very good. If you want to see how important it is, go back and watch the 4th quarters of the NY Giants playoff games last year.

or yesterday...they had 25 4th quarter points i believe

yesmanfan wrote: you have completed ignored one of the most important aspects when judging a QB, 2 min offense, 4th quarter and overtime play. Im guessing you don't think Eli Manning is very good. If you want to see how important it is, go back and watch the 4th quarters of the NY Giants playoff games last year.

I don't recall even discussing those things specifically so far. We've also only played two games. Let's not get ahead of our selfs and compare playoff games to regular season games against opponents ranked at the bottom of the league last year.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: we have to get a lot of first downs to score.

Is that unique to us?

I know what you're saying, though. But I'm okay with long drives that chew up time and yardage. This team can't win in a shoot out (they're having a hard enough time winning this way as it is).

Crax wrote: I don't recall even discussing those things specifically so far. We've also only played two games. Let's not get ahead of our selfs and compare playoff games to regular season games against opponents ranked at the bottom of the league last year.

oh how convenient...fine lets put a ton of weight on his 2 sack fumbles and ignore one of the most important aspects of judging a qb. LMAO

go look at my first post in this thread and you will see i addressed it and my point is you ignore it because it doesn't fit your argument.

dead_poet wrote: Is that unique to us?

I know what you're saying, though. But I'm okay with long drives that chew up time and yardage. This team can't win in a shoot out (they're having a hard enough time winning this way as it is).

OK, OK ... I'll do the work.

In the last two drives of the fourth quarter, the Vikings threw six times in seven first-down plays.

However, for the rest of the game, they threw or dropped to throw on just 6 of 18 first-down plays. Two of those plays resulted in scrambles by Ponder, so they were no better than running plays.

So for the game, they threw 12 of 25 times, which seems balanced. But it's completely skewed to the fourth quarter when they were down two scores late and HAD to throw.

Also, there are times when long drives that chew up the clock actually hurt you. Look at the drive that resulted in Stephen Burton's lucky TD. It took us 10 plays and more than 5 minutes to drive 54 yards. That's pretty ridiculous. The last drive: 53 yards in 9 plays. In those two scoring drives, there were only three plays of more than 10 yards.

We're a very conservative football team right now, despite the misleading stats on first-down balance.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: OK, OK ... I'll do the work.

In the last two drives of the fourth quarter, the Vikings threw six times in seven first-down plays.

However, for the rest of the game, they threw or dropped to throw on just 6 of 18 first-down plays. Two of those plays resulted in scrambles by Ponder, so they were no better than running plays.

So for the game, they threw 12 of 25 times, which seems balanced. But it's completely skewed to the fourth quarter when they were down two scores late and HAD to throw.

Also, there are times when long drives that chew up the clock actually hurt you. Look at the drive that resulted in Stephen Burton's lucky TD. It took us 10 plays and more than 5 minutes to drive 54 yards. That's pretty ridiculous. The last drive: 53 yards in 9 plays. In those two scoring drives, there were only three plays of more than 10 yards.

We're a very conservative football team right now, despite the misleading stats on first-down balance.

good post, ultra conservative frazier and musgrave are completely ruining the season again. running to set up the pass rarely ever works in the nfl. especially in the first half when the defense is super fresh. frazier thinks hes coaching a team with a 1985 like defense and he thinks this is 1980s football with 1980s rules. pass the ball!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! or be fired.

We ran the ball on 16 of our first 23 plays yesterday.

running 3 times and then punting with over a minute to go and at your own 20 doesnt work either. now if that imaginary penalty against jenkins wouldnt have been called then running 3 times would have been a great strategy cuz it would have left about 30 secs at most. the coaches are so ultra conservative its insane. the only time they aren't is when the situation forces them not to be.

I just don't buy the alternative with the pieces we have in place. "Air it out!" To whom? You don't just throw the ball to throw the ball. If you do, you'd best have some playmakers or guys that can separate from time to time or start being satisfied with multiple interception games. That's the reality of where things stand. I don't see how force-feeding Jenkins (once he finally lumbers out of his "break") is going to produce better results.

Franky, I don't have an issue with planning to our strengths. It's proven effective, no matter what's done on first down. And remember, a five-yard run is still effective and gives you a lot more options than 2nd-and-10. And our running backs have done a solid job this season getting good yards ON those first downs, predictable or nay.

The issue that I take is settling for field goals. Had the Vikings converted half their field goals to TDs, would people still condemn the system/Ponder? Of course. But I'd love to hear the argument for airing it out with the likes of Burton, Jenkins and Aromashadu.

dead_poet wrote:I just don't buy the alternative with the pieces we have in place. "Air it out!" To whom? You don't just throw the ball to throw the ball..

take a look at our completion %, number of sacks, and number of turnovers when we do pass the ball.

we have plenty of people to throw the ball to, percy, adrian, toby, rudy, michael, devin, john

J. Kapp 11 wrote:Look at the drive that resulted in Stephen Burton's lucky TD. It took us 10 plays and more than 5 minutes to drive 54 yards. That's pretty ridiculous. The last drive: 53 yards in 9 plays. In those two scoring drives, there were only three plays of more than 10 yards.

I think the key there was "scoring drives." They resulted in scores. I'd love for them to gain huge chunks of yards from time to time but at least until Simpson returns we don't have the playmakers to do that consistently with any success. Especially against teams protecting against that. Especially when our defense will allow one right back. If the 49ers change their scheme and dare Ponder to throw deep, maybe we'll see more shots. I think that's a lot of people's issue right now: we haven't seen enough attempts to say whether or not we can pull it off with any degree of success.

yesmanfan wrote:take a look at our completion %, number of sacks, and number of turnovers when we do pass the ball.

You know as well as I do the majority of Ponder's completions have been less than 10 yards. There's no measuring stick yet for shots 20 yards or more downfield. Short, high-percentage passes completed do not automatically transfer to downfield success. I want them to take more shots too, but I understand the hesitation to do so.