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Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:09 amYeah, I actually went back to that game after I posted and edited my posted. It wasn't what I remembered.

Our big difference is I do kind of think it's something Cousins couldn't do. Not physically, of course, but he just seems to break down in those situations. Overthrows, stutter-steps and ends up a second late on the throw.

Maybe it's a case where my eye test doesn't match reality.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:21 am https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vik ... -45736506/

Bridgewater was clean in the fourth quarter, but he rarely had to win games in the final two minutes. ProFootballReference only credited him with one game-winning drive, and that was a stellar comeback against the Chicago Bears in Week 8.

For the most part, a powerful running game and staunch defense saved the 11-win Vikings from having to rely upon Bridgewater's late-game heroics in 2016.

Mothman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:25 am

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:09 amYeah, I actually went back to that game after I posted and edited my posted. It wasn't what I remembered.

Our big difference is I do kind of think it's something Cousins couldn't do. Not physically, of course, but he just seems to break down in those situations. Overthrows, stutter-steps and ends up a second late on the throw.

Maybe it's a case where my eye test doesn't match reality.

I think it's just a game-to-game thing, Cliff. I've seen him crumble in those situations and I've seen him deliver. Ditto for Bridgewater. I certainly wouldn't be confident that Cousins would come through in a situation like that!

When it comes to Vikings QBs, I fear I've become an equal opportunity cynic.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:51 amWhen have you seen Bridge crumble in those situations?

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:11 am

Cliff wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:28 am The wins/loss record matters insomuch as it shows that there is *some* system/philosophy that a team can use and win with a given QB. Truly terrible QBs aren't able to put together wins regardless of the team around them.

When we talk about guys like Teddy, Case, and Kirk these aren't superstar QBs but what I think both Case and Teddy have up on Cousins is how they play under pressure. They seem to show up in situations where they're needed most or if they don't make it happen, they at least don't look baffled.

Kind of like the drive in that playoff game against Seattle where the team got into FG range at the end. Teddy kind of turned on, took control of the offense, and made it happen. He helped put the team in a position to win in a tough high pressure situation. Cousins just doesn't do that.

When did Teddy show up under pressure? Why is he being credited for being good under pressure? How I remember Teddy under pressure is giving up 2 sacks fumbles in 2015 when the game was on the line.

Mothman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:29 am

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:21 am https://247sports.com/nfl/minnesota-vik ... -45736506/

I'm not sure that link served the purpose you intended. From the article:

Bridgewater was clean in the fourth quarter, but he rarely had to win games in the final two minutes. ProFootballReference only credited him with one game-winning drive, and that was a stellar comeback against the Chicago Bears in Week 8.

For the most part, a powerful running game and staunch defense saved the 11-win Vikings from having to rely upon Bridgewater's late-game heroics in 2016.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:17 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:11 am

When did Teddy show up under pressure? Why is he being credited for being good under pressure? How I remember Teddy under pressure is giving up 2 sacks fumbles in 2015 when the game was on the line.

But because he completed a pass to Rudy in the playoffs that put us in FG range? He literally completed 1 pass that whole drive to Rudy on a quick out that he took for extra yards.

Tell me here where he "turned it on" or "was good under pressure"? And notice what I put in bold. This guy is literally getting crowned for being good under pressure because he complete ONE pass that was a simple out route hoping to get out of bounds and stop the clock. Rudy had time to take it up field. He was 1 for 3 for 24 yards on the drive. And the one complete pass was a big YAC play. This is what Jim and I are referring to. Why is he getting crowned for doing next to nothing?

1st & 10 at MIN 39
(1:42 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete short middle to J.Wright (F.Clark).

2nd & 10 at MIN 39
(1:38 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass incomplete deep right to K.Rudolph [B.Wagner]. PENALTY on SEA-K.Chancellor, Defensive Pass Interference, 19 yards, enforced at MIN 39 - No Play.

1st & 10 at SEA 42
(1:34 - 4th) (Shotgun) T.Bridgewater pass short right to K.Rudolph pushed ob at SEA 18 for 24 yards (E.Thomas).

(1:23 - 4th) Timeout #2 by MIN at 01:26.

1st & 10 at SEA 18
(1:26 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 16 for 2 yards (M.Bennett).

(1:23 - 4th) Two-Minute Warning

(1:20 - 4th) Timeout #2 by SEA at 01:20.

2nd & 8 at SEA 16
(1:20 - 4th) A.Peterson up the middle to SEA 12 for 4 yards (A.Rubin, B.Irvin).

(1:15 - 4th) Timeout #3 by SEA at 01:15.

3rd & 4 at SEA 12
(1:15 - 4th) A.Shepherd reported in as eligible. A.Peterson left guard to SEA 9 for 3 yards (D.Shead).

(0:26 - 4th) Timeout #3 by MIN at 00:26.

4th & 1 at SEA 9
(0:26 - 4th) (Field Goal formation) B.Walsh 27 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Left, Center-K.McDermott, Holder-J.Locke.

Surprise surprise.. ponder hating on an ex Viking. Dude Teddy's claim to fame has always been his performance in the final two mins and his composure. Some Kirk does not have. Kirk has 0 composure. None. Can I also point out that you're looking for a finished product from a kid that hadn't even played 24 games at that point.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:11 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 11:11 am

When did Teddy show up under pressure? Why is he being credited for being good under pressure? How I remember Teddy under pressure is giving up 2 sacks fumbles in 2015 when the game was on the line.

Since you've picked Teddy's worst moments, allow me to highlight a couple of his best.

Teddy led two late drives to bring the Vikings back against Chicago at Solider Field in 2015. One ended in a 40-yard TD pass to Stefon Diggs to tie the game, with the other leading to the game-winning field goal. The field-goal drive was highlighted by Teddy escaping the rush and throwing deep to Charles Johnson for 35 yards and a first down in Bears territory. On those two drives, he was 6-for-8 for 106 yards, and had a 19-yard run for a first down. Three of his first-down throws came on third down. Fairly clutch, I'd say.

In the playoff game against Seattle later that season, Teddy hit a big 24-yard throw to Kyle Rudolph with 1:34 left to get the Vikings to the Seattle 18, well within in field goal range -- which Blair Walsh promptly biffed. No, Teddy did not have a great game. It was about a thousand degrees below zero, so neither team did much. And Teddy was good when it mattered.

Nobody's saying Teddy was Hall-of-Fame material for the Vikings. I'm certainly not saying it. But you're painting him as a bum, which is also untrue. He had his moments, and there's little doubt in my mind that he was ready to take a big step forward in 2016 before the injury. It's taken him some time this year to get his feet under him, but he's doing what he needs to do, and he was downright spectacular against a Tampa Bay team that had just thumped the Rams in LA.

Teddy's no bum, dude. At worst, he's the best backup in the league. At best, he's probably going to get paid to be somebody's starter next year. Maybe New Orleans'.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:46 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:11 pm
Since you've picked Teddy's worst moments, allow me to highlight a couple of his best.

Teddy led two late drives to bring the Vikings back against Chicago at Solider Field in 2015. One ended in a 40-yard TD pass to Stefon Diggs to tie the game, with the other leading to the game-winning field goal. The field-goal drive was highlighted by Teddy escaping the rush and throwing deep to Charles Johnson for 35 yards and a first down in Bears territory. On those two drives, he was 6-for-8 for 106 yards, and had a 19-yard run for a first down. Three of his first-down throws came on third down. Fairly clutch, I'd say.

In the playoff game against Seattle later that season, Teddy hit a big 24-yard throw to Kyle Rudolph with 1:34 left to get the Vikings to the Seattle 18, well within in field goal range -- which Blair Walsh promptly biffed. No, Teddy did not have a great game. It was about a thousand degrees below zero, so neither team did much. And Teddy was good when it mattered.

Nobody's saying Teddy was Hall-of-Fame material for the Vikings. I'm certainly not saying it. But you're painting him as a bum, which is also untrue. He had his moments, and there's little doubt in my mind that he was ready to take a big step forward in 2016 before the injury. It's taken him some time this year to get his feet under him, but he's doing what he needs to do, and he was downright spectacular against a Tampa Bay team that had just thumped the Rams in LA.

Teddy's no bum, dude. At worst, he's the best backup in the league. At best, he's probably going to get paid to be somebody's starter next year. Maybe New Orleans'.

Addressed those plays you’re talking about in the post above. And I’ll even add one on, OT vs the jets. Another zero talent required play by him that helps his “4th quarter heroics” argument. But yet another play made by someone else, not teddy.

And I already mentioned the Tampa game. Not all that impressive given they have arguably the worst secondary in the league. And saying they beat LA doesn’t make it any better, the rams still put up 40 on that defense. It’s the rams defense that didn’t do their job.

I’m not saying teddy is a “bum”. Teddy was a game manager at best and anyone that tries to say he was more than that, is going to have an awfully hard time proving it. The numbers, total pass offense, etc prove that he just wasn’t more than that. He should have made a leap in his 2nd year. His team did, because of AP, but he didn’t. He had a couple less picks his 2nd year but there was no real jump there. He almost has better numbers in 13 games than he did in 16 the following year. Still only throwing 14 TDs your second year? And don’t say it was because of AP. He didn’t have AP in 2014 and threw 402 passes in 13 games. He had him in 2015 and threw 447 passes. So in the end, he would have had roughly 10 or so more passes than his rookie year. With or without AP, it didn’t matter. He just couldn’t push the ball downfield. Period. Most “long passes” he had were because of someone making a play (diggs, Johnson, Wright, Rudy). The guy didn’t win us games. The guy managed games and AP won us games along with a good defense.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:33 pm Lol ok because I just hate all guys that no longer play for the Vikings. The games that you guys are referring to he literally did what any other QB could do. He threw a quick out to Rudy that resulted in a big gain AFTER the catch.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:03 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:46 pm

Addressed those plays you’re talking about in the post above. And I’ll even add one on, OT vs the jets. Another zero talent required play by him that helps his “4th quarter heroics” argument. But yet another play made by someone else, not teddy.

And I already mentioned the Tampa game. Not all that impressive given they have arguably the worst secondary in the league. And saying they beat LA doesn’t make it any better, the rams still put up 40 on that defense. It’s the rams defense that didn’t do their job.

I’m not saying teddy is a “bum”. Teddy was a game manager at best and anyone that tries to say he was more than that, is going to have an awfully hard time proving it. The numbers, total pass offense, etc prove that he just wasn’t more than that. He should have made a leap in his 2nd year. His team did, because of AP, but he didn’t. He had a couple less picks his 2nd year but there was no real jump there. He almost has better numbers in 13 games than he did in 16 the following year. Still only throwing 14 TDs your second year? And don’t say it was because of AP. He didn’t have AP in 2014 and threw 402 passes in 13 games. He had him in 2015 and threw 447 passes. So in the end, he would have had roughly 10 or so more passes than his rookie year. With or without AP, it didn’t matter. He just couldn’t push the ball downfield. Period. Most “long passes” he had were because of someone making a play (diggs, Johnson, Wright, Rudy). The guy didn’t win us games. The guy managed games and AP won us games along with a good defense.

It's obvious neither of us is going to change the other's mind, so let's just stop.

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:40 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Oct 09, 2019 10:33 pm Lol ok because I just hate all guys that no longer play for the Vikings. The games that you guys are referring to he literally did what any other QB could do. He threw a quick out to Rudy that resulted in a big gain AFTER the catch.

I'm actually not convinced that just any QB would make the throw. Could Kirk Cousins complete a pass like that? Of course. Does he in that situation? End of the game, one of the coldest on record, a very stout Seattle defense. I think "a short pass to Rudolph" sells the pass short too.

Here is the actual play. You're confident that Cousins, at 1:20 left in the 4th with the game on the line, in those weather conditions, against the 2015 Seattle defense, starting receivers of Diggs as a rookie and Mike Wallace, with a defender right behind him lunging out to grab him in the next .5 second, makes this play? I would have ZERO confidence in him to pull the trigger on this in the first place let alone actually make the play.

https://youtu.be/N5zFfcPdQN8?t=360

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:55 amIf someone were to question Cousins and say he wouldnt have made the Keenum miracle throw to Diggs or the Favre throw to Greg Lewis is one thing. The throw to Rudy in the playoffs though? Yeah I would have confidence in Cousins making that throw. It was a 10 yard throw. That's just not an impressive throw to me. 90% of the time, Rudy would have just went out of bounds there but given the defender tried to make a play there was room to keep going. That's a 10 yard out. Any QB could make that throw. Very few QBs could make that throw to Greg Lewis that Favre had. Keenum, it was more out of desperation mode and being lucky that the defender missed the tackle on Diggs. It was a good throw but not intended to be a TD. It was a better play by Diggs and Keenum had a clean pocket. Regardless, that throw to Rudy just doesnt impress me.

Side note: Man I forgot that Rudy actually had some decent speed to him. Watching him run now is painful.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 7:55 am

Cliff wrote: ↑Thu Oct 10, 2019 6:40 am

I'm actually not convinced that just any QB would make the throw. Could Kirk Cousins complete a pass like that? Of course. Does he in that situation? End of the game, one of the coldest on record, a very stout Seattle defense. I think "a short pass to Rudolph" sells the pass short too.

Here is the actual play. You're confident that Cousins, at 1:20 left in the 4th with the game on the line, in those weather conditions, against the 2015 Seattle defense, starting receivers of Diggs as a rookie and Mike Wallace, with a defender right behind him lunging out to grab him in the next .5 second, makes this play? I would have ZERO confidence in him to pull the trigger on this in the first place let alone actually make the play.

https://youtu.be/N5zFfcPdQN8?t=360

If someone were to question Cousins and say he wouldnt have made the Keenum miracle throw to Diggs or the Favre throw to Greg Lewis is one thing. The throw to Rudy in the playoffs though? Yeah I would have confidence in Cousins making that throw. It was a 10 yard throw. That's just not an impressive throw to me. 90% of the time, Rudy would have just went out of bounds there but given the defender tried to make a play there was room to keep going. That's a 10 yard out. Any QB could make that throw. Very few QBs could make that throw to Greg Lewis that Favre had. Keenum, it was more out of desperation mode and being lucky that the defender missed the tackle on Diggs. It was a good throw but not intended to be a TD. It was a better play by Diggs and Keenum had a clean pocket. Regardless, that throw to Rudy just doesnt impress me.

Side note: Man I forgot that Rudy actually had some decent speed to him. Watching him run now is painful.