Case Keenum

[Mothman]

Yep, he only went .500 on a team with a pedestrian run game, a bad defense and very little talent on the offensive side of the ball...as a rookie. The bum!

Oh, please, that wasn't an implicit criticism, just a statement of fact. The subject of the discussion was winning and the Vikings didn't have a winning record in 2014 so that was relevant. Their 2014 record can't be solely attributed to Bridgewater any more than he can be credited as the reason the team went 11-5 in 2015.

Teddy had reduced role on that 2015 team and was second fiddle to AP, but he did contribute, made key throws a number of times when asked too, and was a big part of the team going 11-5.

He was a part of it. A big part of it? Not so much. Game outcomes were heavily tied to the performance of the running game and the defense that season and at times, they basically won despite Bridgewater. He was a part of that season in the same way Ponder was a part of the 2012 season and the latter did make some important plays and contribute to the team making the playoffs that year. However, in both seasons, Peterson was the engine that powered the offense.

Not as big of a part as AP, but a big part. There was potential there, potential that might come out in NO, or maybe fizzles out and he becomes a career backup. One has our GM, HC and some Viking's fans looking like fools, the other would be a real shame for a nice kid, but is probably equally as likely as the former. I guess we will see.

Time will tell but I see no point in trying to build his brief, mediocre Vikings career into something it wasn't. He's in a near-perfect situation right now and he's more experienced. Maybe he'll thrive. He certainly had a good game on Sunday.

[StumpHunter]

He was a part of it. A big part of it? Not so much. Game outcomes were heavily tied to the performance of the running game and the defense that season and at times, they basically won despite Bridgewater. He was a part of that season in the same way Ponder was a part of the 2012 season and the latter did make some important plays and contribute to the team making the playoffs that year. However, in both seasons, Peterson was the engine that powered the offense.

The first part is a valid opinion, even if I disagree with it. The second is a false equivalency that you are better than. 2012 saw a RB have the second best season of any RB ever. 2015 we saw a good rushing attack that wasn't even the best in 2015.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Bridgewater's record with the Vikings was 18 and 14 and in his second year (and only winning season)

Yep, he only went .500 on a team with a pedestrian run game, a bad defense and very little talent on the offensive side of the ball...as a rookie. The bum!

Teddy had reduced role on that 2015 team and was second fiddle to AP, but he did contribute, made key throws a number of times when asked too, and was a big part of the team going 11-5. Not as big of a part as AP, but a big part. There was potential there, potential that might come out in NO, or maybe fizzles out and he becomes a career backup. One has our GM, HC and some Viking's fans looking like fools, the other would be a real shame for a nice kid, but is probably equally as likely as the former. I guess we will see.

.500?? Where are you coming up with that. He was 6-8 his rookie year. And out of those 6 wins, not one of them were a "winning team". As a matter of fact, the teams he beat had a combine record of 28-67-1. And 1 of those 6 wins he had (Tampa Bay), was single-handedly won by Anthony Barr on the scoop and score in OT. And that Tampa team won 2 games all year. So he rookie year was far from impressive.

And yeah, the best RB in the NFL was back in 2015 but he was the offense. Like Jim said, we were 31st in passing offense. How was Teddy a big part of this offense? We couldnt move the ball through the air that was the problem. When AP was shut down, we lost. I explained it above. Teddy couldnt carry the team if the run game wasnt working. He couldnt carry the team in general.

I've said this before and I know Jim remembers, as hard as this fan base is on QBs, I've never seen a QB get praised so much for doing so little like Teddy Bridgewater. I never understood it. Yeah I was intrigued by the potential, I liked Teddy and was devastated when the injury happened but he didnt prove much at all as a passer. I feel like he still hasnt. Having a good game against the NFLs worst secondary doesnt prove anything to me. No less for us to keep him following the 2017 season just wasnt in the cards. He was still a complete question mark mainly coming off that injury but also as a passer. And to defend him as a winning QB, is about as bad as defending Christian Ponder as a winning QB

[Mothman]

He was a part of it. A big part of it? Not so much. Game outcomes were heavily tied to the performance of the running game and the defense that season and at times, they basically won despite Bridgewater. He was a part of that season in the same way Ponder was a part of the 2012 season and the latter did make some important plays and contribute to the team making the playoffs that year. However, in both seasons, Peterson was the engine that powered the offense.

The first part is a valid opinion, even if I disagree with it. The second is a false equivalency that you are better than. 2012 saw a RB have the second best season of any RB ever. 2015 we saw a good rushing attack that wasn't even the best in 2015.

No, it was the 4th best and Peterson led the league in rushing. Peterson was the centerpiece of the offense in both 2015 and 2012. It's not necessary for his 2015 numbers to match those of his best season for the comparison to be valid. It's not a false equivalency. The 2015 Vikings finished with the league's 4th-ranked rushing attack and the 31st-ranked passing offense. It's beyond obvious which aspect of the game was more important to their success and it was equally obvious as that season unfolded.

[Mothman]

I've said this before and I know Jim remembers, as hard as this fan base is on QBs, I've never seen a QB get praised so much for doing so little like Teddy Bridgewater. I never understood it.

I do remember. I never understood it either and I still don't get it.

We're 19 pages into a thread titled Case Keenum and now discussing the merits of Teddy Bridgewater. It speaks volumes about the recent history of the Vikes Qb position.

My take on this, and it pains me to say it: Brett Favre, in 2009, was easily the best quarterback of the Spielman era in Minnesota (2008-present) and easily the best QB the Vikes have had since Culpepper. Some would go back further than that. The success they had with Favre was never going to be sustainable in the long term due to his age. He was a temporary solution. The closest they've come to recapturing the lightning-in-a-bottle Favre brought to the team in 2009 was the 2017 season with Keenum. Keenum certainly didn't match Favre's performance but there was clearly an energy and chemistry that worked for a good portion of that season. We'll never know if that was sustainable or not but considered within the overall context of Keenum's career, it probably wasn't. At best, he would probably have been a solid veteran bridge to a young "QB of the future" but the sentiment we still see toward him is understandable because 2017 was a fun season and Keenum was playing a fun brand of football.

The Vikes have had 2 basic approaches to the QB position since Spielman arrived (or, if you prefer, since Childress arrived): draft a young QB when you need one or sign a veteran stopgap. It's rare that a team can find a future Hall of Famer with one great season left in him to fill that role so we've seen a succession of journeymen. I'd put Cousins in that category too, although he's an expensive journeyman! His fate as Vikings QB remains to be seen but I think it's clear the team needs a change in philosophy when it comes to this position. They need to introduce more genuine competition to the QB depth chart and they need to stop drafting QBs only when they feel they must and start drafting them because their performance and potential dictates it. That's how you build depth and you might just find a star. Heck, I remember wanting the Vikes to draft Brees back in 2001, even though they had Culpepper (and I was a DC fan). I had watched Brees in college and I knew he was going be good at the next level. I saw the potential for a Montana/Young type of QB situation and thought it would be a great idea! Little did I know what the future held for both players.

The Vikes also need to look well beyond the usual "measurables" to traits like leadership, accuracy, mental toughness and resourcefulness. They need to stop putting their eggs in one basket when it comes to the future of the position. There's a much better approach to QB than the one they've taken for the past decade or so.

[Thaumaturgist]

I've said this before and I know Jim remembers, as hard as this fan base is on QBs, I've never seen a QB get praised so much for doing so little like Teddy Bridgewater. I never understood it.

I do remember. I never understood it either and I still don't get it.

We're 19 pages into a thread titled Case Keenum and now discussing the merits of Teddy Bridgewater. It speaks volumes about the recent history of the Vikes Qb position.

My take on this, and it pains me to say it: Brett Favre, in 2009, was easily the best quarterback of the Spielman era in Minnesota (2008-present) and easily the best QB the Vikes have had since Culpepper. Some would go back further than that. The success they had with Favre was never going to be sustainable in the long term due to his age. He was a temporary solution. The closest they've come to recapturing the lightning-in-a-bottle Favre brought to the team in 2009 was the 2017 season with Keenum. Keenum certainly didn't match Favre's performance but there was clearly an energy and chemistry that worked for a good portion of that season. We'll never know if that was sustainable or not but considered within the overall context of Keenum's career, it probably wasn't. At best, he would probably have been a solid veteran bridge to a young "QB of the future" but the sentiment we still see toward him is understandable because 2017 was a fun season and Keenum was playing a fun brand of football.

The Vikes have had 2 basic approaches to the QB position since Spielman arrived (or, if you prefer, since Childress arrived): draft a young QB when you need one or sign a veteran stopgap. It's rare that a team can find a future Hall of Famer with one great season left in him to fill that role so we've seen a succession of journeymen. I'd put Cousins in that category too, although he's an expensive journeyman! His fate as Vikings QB remains to be seen but I think it's clear the team needs a change in philosophy when it comes to this position. They need to introduce more genuine competition to the QB depth chart and they need to stop drafting QBs only when they feel they must and start drafting them because their performance and potential dictates it. That's how you build depth and you might just find a star. Heck, I remember wanting the Vikes to draft Brees back in 2001, even though they had Culpepper (and I was a DC fan). I had watched Brees in college and I knew he was going be good at the next level. I saw the potential for a Montana/Young type of QB situation and thought it would be a great idea! Little did I know what the future held for both players.

The Vikes also need to look well beyond the usual "measurables" to traits like leadership, accuracy, mental toughness and resourcefulness. They need to stop putting their eggs in one basket when it comes to the future of the position. There's a much better approach to QB than the one they've taken for the past decade or so.

Can you let Spielman know who the next QB on your list is please?

[Mothman]

Can you let Spielman know who the next QB on your list is please?

Um... the good one? You know, that one guy! He plays for that college team. You know the one I'm talking about.

[StumpHunter]

Yep, he only went .500 on a team with a pedestrian run game, a bad defense and very little talent on the offensive side of the ball...as a rookie. The bum!

Teddy had reduced role on that 2015 team and was second fiddle to AP, but he did contribute, made key throws a number of times when asked too, and was a big part of the team going 11-5. Not as big of a part as AP, but a big part. There was potential there, potential that might come out in NO, or maybe fizzles out and he becomes a career backup. One has our GM, HC and some Viking's fans looking like fools, the other would be a real shame for a nice kid, but is probably equally as likely as the former. I guess we will see.

.500?? Where are you coming up with that. He was 6-8 his rookie year. And out of those 6 wins, not one of them were a "winning team". As a matter of fact, the teams he beat had a combine record of 28-67-1. And 1 of those 6 wins he had (Tampa Bay), was single-handedly won by Anthony Barr on the scoop and score in OT. And that Tampa team won 2 games all year. So he rookie year was far from impressive.

And yeah, the best RB in the NFL was back in 2015 but he was the offense. Like Jim said, we were 31st in passing offense. How was Teddy a big part of this offense? We couldnt move the ball through the air that was the problem. When AP was shut down, we lost. I explained it above. Teddy couldnt carry the team if the run game wasnt working. He couldnt carry the team in general.

I've said this before and I know Jim remembers, as hard as this fan base is on QBs, I've never seen a QB get praised so much for doing so little like Teddy Bridgewater. I never understood it. Yeah I was intrigued by the potential, I liked Teddy and was devastated when the injury happened but he didnt prove much at all as a passer. I feel like he still hasnt. Having a good game against the NFLs worst secondary doesnt prove anything to me. No less for us to keep him following the 2017 season just wasnt in the cards. He was still a complete question mark mainly coming off that injury but also as a passer. And to defend him as a winning QB, is about as bad as defending Christian Ponder as a winning QB

That would be quite the feat to go 6-8 in 12 games started.

I would also never defend Ponder as a winning QB, because he isn’t a winning QB. 14-21-1 as a starter.

[StumpHunter]

The first part is a valid opinion, even if I disagree with it. The second is a false equivalency that you are better than. 2012 saw a RB have the second best season of any RB ever. 2015 we saw a good rushing attack that wasn't even the best in 2015.

No, it was the 4th best and Peterson led the league in rushing. Peterson was the centerpiece of the offense in both 2015 and 2012. It's not necessary for his 2015 numbers to match those of his best season for the comparison to be valid. It's not a false equivalency. The 2015 Vikings finished with the league's 4th-ranked rushing attack and the 31st-ranked passing offense. It's beyond obvious which aspect of the game was more important to their success and it was equally obvious as that season unfolded.

I never said it wasn't more important and said the opposite if you wanted to read my post. It was clearly a run first offense. That doesn't mean Teddy didn't need to contribute in big spots to get the team to 11-5.

What you did was compare the 2nd best rushing season by a running back, to the 100th or so best, and said they were essentially the same seasons. One was so historically good that we will likely never see again, the other wasn't even that special of a season, but they are pretty much the same thing?

[Mothman]

I would also never defend Ponder as a winning QB, because he isn’t a winning QB. 14-21-1 as a starter.

Another illustration that it's the rest of the team as well as the QB that determines the W/L record.

[CharVike]

I've said this before and I know Jim remembers, as hard as this fan base is on QBs, I've never seen a QB get praised so much for doing so little like Teddy Bridgewater. I never understood it.

I do remember. I never understood it either and I still don't get it.

We're 19 pages into a thread titled Case Keenum and now discussing the merits of Teddy Bridgewater. It speaks volumes about the recent history of the Vikes Qb position.

My take on this, and it pains me to say it: Brett Favre, in 2009, was easily the best quarterback of the Spielman era in Minnesota (2008-present) and easily the best QB the Vikes have had since Culpepper. Some would go back further than that. The success they had with Favre was never going to be sustainable in the long term due to his age. He was a temporary solution. The closest they've come to recapturing the lightning-in-a-bottle Favre brought to the team in 2009 was the 2017 season with Keenum. Keenum certainly didn't match Favre's performance but there was clearly an energy and chemistry that worked for a good portion of that season. We'll never know if that was sustainable or not but considered within the overall context of Keenum's career, it probably wasn't. At best, he would probably have been a solid veteran bridge to a young "QB of the future" but the sentiment we still see toward him is understandable because 2017 was a fun season and Keenum was playing a fun brand of football.

The Vikes have had 2 basic approaches to the QB position since Spielman arrived (or, if you prefer, since Childress arrived): draft a young QB when you need one or sign a veteran stopgap. It's rare that a team can find a future Hall of Famer with one great season left in him to fill that role so we've seen a succession of journeymen. I'd put Cousins in that category too, although he's an expensive journeyman! His fate as Vikings QB remains to be seen but I think it's clear the team needs a change in philosophy when it comes to this position. They need to introduce more genuine coGo back throw it deep mpetition to the QB depth chart and they need to stop drafting QBs only when they feel they must and start drafting them because their performance and potential dictates it. That's how you build depth and you might just find a star. Heck, I remember wanting the Vikes to draft Brees back in 2001, even though they had Culpepper (and I was a DC fan). I had watched Brees in college and I knew he was going be good at the next level. I saw the potential for a Montana/Young type of QB situation and thought it would be a great idea! Little did I know what the future held for both players.

The Vikes also need to look well beyond the usual "measurables" to traits like leadership, accuracy, mental toughness and resourcefulness. They need to stop putting their eggs in one basket when it comes to the future of the position. There's a much better approach to QB than the one they've taken for the past decade or so.

You bring up a good point. I watch some Percey Harvin highlights and Farve was throwing to him. Man that dude was good. He took the O over. Plus the guy was as tough as they come. All time great arm. My eyes poped out. But please don't mention that bum Culpepper. He was a joke. Had the mental capacity of a 3rd grader. Drop back look one way and throw it deep. He had no other skill. I doubt he could even remember the plays. Yes a big physical guy and....... nothing. We haven't had anything since Fran. Even him we jerked around. It's almost as if our team was scared right off the bat with the QB. Cousins is a bum some other team didn't want. I liked the signing but it's over with for me. He has no chance at all to get us in the show. There's only one way to solve it. Pick a QB in the draft. This year I wanted Drew Lock. I was yelling at the TV but we passed. I said F it. He probably will be a bum but at least we would have a guy in the hole. Plus he has every thing I like in a QB including a big time arm. This guy can throw it. And that one thing we always do and it's part of the problem is selecting guys with pop gun arms early. Like Teddy. He blows. The D can squeeze the center of the field. The sidelines are never watched. That puts the O at a huge disadvantage. Same BS with Ponder. No arm at all. From a scout. Arm strength:This is the area of most concern for Ponder. That's not a 1st rounder.
Those two were just horrible picks by Speilman. If a QB can't throw it don't pick him. Wake up.
Here's Teddy
Weaknesses:
Good, but not great, skill set
Is prone to throwing the ball late
Should improve ball placement
Inconsistent accuracy
Should improve footwork
Slight frame
Can he maintain weight?
Decent, but not a powerful, arm
Balls can flutter downfield
Once you hear decent and flutter shut the door. Every thing about this guy indicated he can't pass at the NFL level. Not only does his arm strength suck his accuracy does also. When I hear I hope we get Teddy back I'm like why? He can't pass good enough. Just bring Ponder back. Same BS. Once the arm is there they have a chance. I know the no arm examples like Montanna ect... I want an arm. With a guy like Farve you are never out of the game. The entire field needs to be covered. Don't come up close or it's good night.

[StumpHunter]

I would also never defend Ponder as a winning QB, because he isn’t a winning QB. 14-21-1 as a starter.

Another illustration that it's the rest of the team as well as the QB that determines the W/L record.

Good QBs can play on really bad teams and have losing records, bad QBs can play on really good ones and have a winning record, but eventually, with enough starts, the good ones will win, and the bad ones will lose. So far, in two seasons worth of starts, Teddy hasn't started losing. We will see what happens.

[Mothman]

I never said it wasn't more important and said the opposite if you wanted to read my post. It was clearly a run first offense. That doesn't mean Teddy didn't need to contribute in big spots to get the team to 11-5.

Nobody is denying that he contributed.

What you did was compare the 2nd best rushing season by a running back, to the 100th or so best, and said they were essentially the same seasons.

I never said "they were essentially the same seasons". All I did was make the point that in both seasons, Peterson and the running game were the driving force behind the offense. It doesn't matter that one season was historically better than the other, that dynamic was present in both of them, as you've acknowledged.

[Mothman]

Good QBs can play on really bad teams and have losing records, bad QBs can play on really good ones and have a winning record, but eventually, with enough starts, the good ones will win, and the bad ones will lose. So far, in two seasons worth of starts, Teddy hasn't started losing. We will see what happens.

If he ever gets enough starts...

At this point, it's not clear if he's good, bad or just mediocre. However, if I was a bettin' man, I'd put my money on the latter.

[YikesVikes]

I have no problem reminding you guys what Teddy had. Teddy had It. He was calm under pressure despite being sacked a lot due to an awful oline. He threw with anticipation and most importantly, he was excellent in the 4th quarter. I believe in 2015 or 2016 he had the leagues best rating in the 4th. He also was money in the final 2 mins of halves. Lastly, he was young. Many saw that he was just scratching the surface of his abilities.