Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:09 pm Honestly, I'm already burnt out with the Cousins and the season has only been over for a week. I'm not doing this all offseason. Some of you make good points and I agree with some and disagree with others. I'm not saying Cousins is some perfect QB and I'm not saying he's the next coming. But he is a flat out better option than Keenum or Teddy and Cousins is our starting QB next year regardless. He could be extended given our cap or they could let him play out his final year. Who knows. I'm going to get back to working on my mock offseason and try getting that done for you guys.

Do what you do, PHP!!

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:09 pm Honestly, I'm already burnt out with the Cousins and the season has only been over for a week. I'm not doing this all offseason. Some of you make good points and I agree with some and disagree with others. I'm not saying Cousins is some perfect QB and I'm not saying he's the next coming. But he is a flat out better option than Keenum or Teddy and Cousins is our starting QB next year regardless. He could be extended given our cap or they could let him play out his final year. Who knows. I'm going to get back to working on my mock offseason and try getting that done for you guys.

You need to let the Case and Teddy stuff go. I know why you want to argue about those guys, Cousins looks favorable compared to a second year QB and a 2 million dollar backup. The vast majority of the discussions aren't about those two though, and when they are brought up, it is to point out we haven't really improved over them with Cousins at QB. The end result is the same, so why wouldn't we move on from Cousins like we moved on from them?

Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:10 am Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:10 am Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Or they need a better RB. Cook is very good but he hasn't proven to be a full season guy. This year he feel off the map after the 1st 6 games. Played very good for a half against the Saints also. He's a 10-15 carry a week guy. To have a run oriented offense you need a guy that can take the carries for a full season. Matti is the rest guy. He looked dam good also. Just got banged up.Maybe they need another guy to team up with the 2 we have. Use the hot hand of the week approach.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:42 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:09 pm Honestly, I'm already burnt out with the Cousins and the season has only been over for a week. I'm not doing this all offseason. Some of you make good points and I agree with some and disagree with others. I'm not saying Cousins is some perfect QB and I'm not saying he's the next coming. But he is a flat out better option than Keenum or Teddy and Cousins is our starting QB next year regardless. He could be extended given our cap or they could let him play out his final year. Who knows. I'm going to get back to working on my mock offseason and try getting that done for you guys.

You need to let the Case and Teddy stuff go. I know why you want to argue about those guys, Cousins looks favorable compared to a second year QB and a 2 million dollar backup. The vast majority of the discussions aren't about those two though, and when they are brought up, it is to point out we haven't really improved over them with Cousins at QB. The end result is the same, so why wouldn't we move on from Cousins like we moved on from them?

I need to let it go? I wasn’t the one that brought it up. When someone says “sign teddy and trade Kirk”, I’m going to respond.

As for improving our team, I 100% think we improved the QB position but in turn, the defense went backwards when we improved the QB position. This year they drastically went backwards. That’s my whole point with this. When some guys think of “improving” they look at record. We all know a final record isn’t solely based on QB performance. If we still had a top 3 defense and cousins went 10-6 and guys want to say we didn’t improve over Keenum and teddy, then sure it makes sense to argue that. But like I said in a previous post, nobody can sit there and tell me that if cousins had the NUMBER ONE defense in the nfl this year, this season would have been a 10-6, wild card type season. It wouldn’t have been. We would have swallowed up Matt Moore, swallowed up chase Daniel (which yeah we could have still lost because cousins played terrible that game), wouldn’t have allowed 21 points in the first quarter vs GB and in turn, wouldn’t have seen that game ending pick by cousins, would’ve had Seattle attempting to catch up to us, not the other way around, etc. and would’ve very well had a first round bye. The only regular season games I could say we’d still lose are possibly Chicago and Green Bay (2nd game). I don’t see us losing to GB in the first game, I don’t see us losing to KC and I’m guessing the #1 defense in the nfl would’ve held the Seahawks to less than 37 points. That’s a 14-2 or at worst 13-3 season. That is my point with all of this, the way cousins played most of the year paired with the number one defense in the nfl and dalvin cook most of the year, yeah we’d be a top team in the nfl no doubt. But on the surface it looks like cousins didn’t improve the team because he didn’t match keenums record or better it. No less the fact that Keenum had a much easier road especially given that our division that year was an absolute joke. But the two seasons were so drastically different it’s not even funny, especially when it comes to the defense. This defense was MUCH worse than 2017s. Much worse. I thought last year was a hiccup with this defense and we’d get back to form this year and I was dead wrong. That elite defense is so far gone it’s not even funny. And as for teddy, the team relied on AP number one, the defense number 2 and then anything else teddy could possibly contribute which over the 2015 season, wasn’t much. Cousins contributed SO much more to this team than teddy did in 2015 and it’s not even close. This was the worst defense we’ve had in zimmers tenure. There isn’t a chance in hell teddy or case wouldn’t went 10-5 (not counting final game) or better with this team. Not a chance. Just my opinion but I don’t see it. So yeah, that is why I defend cousins in situations like this because he is a better QB and he is an improvement. But when one part of your team improves and the other part goes drastically backwards, it’s hard to sustain the same success.

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:10 am Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Absolutely.

Since we know Cousins has trouble escaping pressure, that means the O-line needs to be better in both run blocking and pass blocking. Run blocking so that the Vikings can stay out of third-and-long, and pass blocking so that when they do get in third-and-long, they're not looking at a 90% chance of a sack. Occasionally the line has to be able to hold up even when the defense knows you're going to throw. With Kirk, they have to be better than teams who have a quarterback who can escape.

The guys we've been trotting out there on the O-line ... they're not that.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:14 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 10:42 am
You need to let the Case and Teddy stuff go. I know why you want to argue about those guys, Cousins looks favorable compared to a second year QB and a 2 million dollar backup. The vast majority of the discussions aren't about those two though, and when they are brought up, it is to point out we haven't really improved over them with Cousins at QB. The end result is the same, so why wouldn't we move on from Cousins like we moved on from them?

I need to let it go? I wasn’t the one that brought it up. When someone says “sign teddy and trade Kirk”, I’m going to respond.

It wasn't meant as a serious suggestion. Just let it go.

Looking forward to your mock and discussing how to make the team better. I am curious how you will go: immediate impact draft or draft for the future.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:30 pm

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Absolutely.

Since we know Cousins has trouble escaping pressure, that means the O-line needs to be better in both run blocking and pass blocking. Run blocking so that the Vikings can stay out of third-and-long, and pass blocking so that when they do get in third-and-long, they're not looking at a 90% chance of a sack. Occasionally the line has to be able to hold up even when the defense knows you're going to throw. With Kirk, they have to be better than teams who have a quarterback who can escape.

The guys we've been trotting out there on the O-line ... they're not that.

I feel like we have been talking about getting better on the line, particularly at guard, for a decade now. At some point, Rick has got to get that position right, doesn't he?

If you’re eating up $30M+ a year you’re not going to have a spectacular everything else. YOU need to be spectacular and Cousins is not that on a consistent basis. Look at the Titans, similar run first old school offense. You only need a guy like Tannehill for that type of offense, put the rest of your resources everywhere else.

It’s opportunity cost. It’s not about Kirk vs whoever else. It’s is he worth that contract in this offense. And I don’t think he is. You can find a QB that can run play action for much cheaper. His contract should be given to a guy that can extend plays, make clutch plays, and carry a team when needed. It’s not worth giving it to a statue pocket passer that’s inconsistent in clutch games. Let him play out the last year of that boat anchor contract then decide. The biggest mistake they can do is extend him or Zimmer right now.

The Vikings need to pick an identity and stick with it. If this is a run first, strong defense strategy then you simply don’t pay a QB that type of money unless he’s a guy like Wilson who can make do with a shoddy o-line.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:49 pmI feel like we have been talking about getting better on the line, particularly at guard, for a decade now. At some point, Rick has got to get that position right, doesn't he?

... or at some point the Vikes have to realize he's not the man to do it. Something has to give.

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:13 pm If you’re eating up $30M+ a year you’re not going to have a spectacular everything else. YOU need to be spectacular and Cousins is not that on a consistent basis. Look at the Titans, similar run first old school offense. You only need a guy like Tannehill for that type of offense, put the rest of your resources everywhere else.

It’s opportunity cost. It’s not about Kirk vs whoever else. It’s is he worth that contract in this offense. And I don’t think he is. You can find a QB that can run play action for much cheaper. His contract should be given to a guy that can extend plays, make clutch plays, and carry a team when needed. It’s not worth giving it to a statue pocket passer that’s inconsistent in clutch games. Let him play out the last year of that boat anchor contract then decide. The biggest mistake they can do is extend him or Zimmer right now.

The Vikings need to pick an identity and stick with it. If this is a run first, strong defense strategy then you simply don’t pay a QB that type of money unless he’s a guy like Wilson who can make do with a shoddy o-line.

Perfectly said man. I have tried to keep the faith in Cousins since we signed him, but its dwindling.
Sure when everything is perfect, he has a clean pocket and time, or rolling out on play action he is very accurate and throws a great ball. That's awesome.
But isn't that what any starting QB in the NFL should be able to do? That should be a given.
But how often do we really see him extend plays because of his mobility or be able to escape the pressure and make a big play. Sadly not very often IMO.
I watch guys like Wilson, Rodgers, Mahomes and Watson and how they routinely seem to be sacked, only to end up escaping and making a big time play.
Then there is Brady. The guy definitely isn't mobile or fast in any sense of the word. But he "feels" the pressure, slides and moves and somehow most of the time makes it a great play.
Cousins just doesnt have that "feel". As soon as it breaks down he either just tucks the ball and turtles up, or tries to throw it to his checkdown. Unfortunately more times than not it's either way high or on the dirt.
It's fine to throw a great accurate ball when everything goes perfectly.
But its different watching the great ones when it's not perfect. They seem to have that calmness and coolness, and thrive on those moments. Cousins just seems to get rattled and panic.
He has his moments sure. But he just isn't consistent.
Well I just watched Mahomes make that long TD run that finished that drive. Its exactly what I'm talking about.
Poise, no panic and made a great play.
That's the kind of franchise QB I want for us.
I hate to say it cuz I have tried to believe in Cousins, but unfortunately I'm really not believing that he will ever be that guy.

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:10 am Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Amen. We have some holes but none bigger than our O line. Watching Mahomes and how much time he gets underscores the point. Belechick always understood Brady had no mobility and made a solid O line a priority over his career.

I hope Mahomes chokes in the Superbowl, I can not stand the Chiefs and the fans

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 12:11 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:10 am Kapp that was an outstanding post. If they want to be contenders with Cousins, they need to have a sufficiently dominant running game that they can establish at least an adequate running game against even the best defenses (like Chicago and SF).

... and if they want that, they need a better o-line... here we are again.

Exactly and that’s the problem. Cousins isn’t good enough for his contact so they cannot build the dominant OL and running game that’s required to compensate for cousins’ limitations . They need to pay up for OL DL and everywhere else, and draft a QB early every 3 years . Hopefully you can find a qb on rookie contract that can play well and win a SB.

Two ways to win in this salary cap era of the nfl:

1. Find an elite QB and pay him. Hopefully he can take you to the promised land
2. Find a good or even average qb on rookie contract - dominant D and good O and young qb is good enough to win big

How not to win

1. Pay an average QB like an elite QB, and live in salary cap hell because you can’t afford your great players with that QB contract