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Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:12 am
by fiestavike
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:03 am
I liked Keenum's approach. It stood in contrast to exactly what I disliked about Bridgewater's game when he was a Viking. I felt he was very much the kind of QB who preferred to throw the ball away or dump it off rather than give a receiver in one-on-one coverage a chance to make a play.
Fair enough, but Teddy Bridgewater was, I believe, 21 when he was drafted and showed real promise. I believe Vikings fans were extremely impatient with him on the back of the Ponder experience, and in the near future, will seriously regret letting him go. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:26 am
by Mothman
fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:12 am
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:03 am
I liked Keenum's approach. It stood in contrast to exactly what I disliked about Bridgewater's game when he was a Viking. I felt he was very much the kind of QB who preferred to throw the ball away or dump it off rather than give a receiver in one-on-one coverage a chance to make a play.
Fair enough, but Teddy Bridgewater was, I believe, 21 when he was drafted and showed real promise. I believe Vikings fans were extremely impatient with him on the back of the Ponder experience, and in the near future, will seriously regret letting him go. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured.
I think they were impatient with Ponder too. They both showed promise at times. Ponder obviously didn't work out for anybody. Maybe Bridgewater will and the Vikes will regret letting him go. I think he's supposed to start for the Saints this week so that will be interesting!
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:56 am
by fiestavike
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:26 am
fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:12 am
Fair enough, but Teddy Bridgewater was, I believe, 21 when he was drafted and showed real promise. I believe Vikings fans were extremely impatient with him on the back of the Ponder experience, and in the near future, will seriously regret letting him go. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured.
I think they were impatient with Ponder too. They both showed promise at times. Ponder obviously didn't work out for anybody. Maybe Bridgewater will and the Vikes will regret letting him go. I think he's supposed to start for the Saints this week so that will be interesting!
I did not think Ponder showed a whole lot of promise, though I was in favor of giving him every chance and I tend to place a high value on continuity. My own opinion, outside of '09, the vikings haven't had a QB I thought gave them a better than average chance of winning the super bowl with the exception of 2016 Bridgewater.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:27 pm
by StumpHunter
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:03 am
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:09 amKeenum wasn't the answer at QB here. He might have played better for us than he has in Denver, but in the end he isn't good enough. Cousins hasn't been good enough yet either, but at least he...someone finish this for me, I can't think of anything.
... but at least he has another game (or more) this year and 2 more seasons after that to be good enough?
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 10:52 amC'mon. You really think that I was going to believe that NO ONE on the boards that defends Keenum. Ok, so I just dropped by three different Broncos boards. I didn't have to spend 5 minutes on then to find people who defend him. Yes, there a lot of people complaining, mostly about interceptions, but there they are also complaining about Musgrave (the OC) and their OL (just like we do here). Keenum has always been described as far back as his college years as a Gunslinger. Gunslingers by nature will throw interceptions because they try to make something of every play. Favre did it, and every other QB of that nature did it. I'm of the opinion, if you don't throw interceptions, then you aren't trying. If you're the QB on a team where the receivers are hardly ever open and the OL hardly ever gives you time to throw, should you just throw all those passes away or dump it off every time? After a while. out of frustration, you try to take the game over and squeeze throws into places that you shouldn't. Again, Favre did it all the time. Let me ask you this. In the Miracle game against New Orleans, should Keenum have thrown that ball to Diggs, or should he have thrown it to the receiver that the play was designed to throw it to? or should he have just dumped it off to someone out of the backfield and hoped that he ran for a TD after the catch (like I see time and time again throughout the NFL and makes me want to pull my hair out) We'll never know the answer to this but I wonder what Cousins would have done on that play.
It's hard to say. He does take chances.
Your description of Keenum and the gunslinger mentality is very much what I like about his game, although it's best to find QBs who manage to maintain that mentality while turning it over less (I think Brees fits that description— he's fearless and aggressive). I liked Keenum's approach. It stood in contrast to exactly what I disliked about Bridgewater's game when he was a Viking. I felt he was very much the kind of QB who preferred to throw the ball away or dump it off rather than give a receiver in one-on-one coverage a chance to make a play.
To be fair to Teddy, every time he attempted a contested pass, his receiver failed to come down with it. I believe every interceptable pass he threw in 2015 was picked, so it is no wonder he would hesitate to throw risky passes. Case on the other hand, had a better Diggs and Thielen to bail him out of bad throws. He also seemed to play with a horseshoe up his butt, and was more lucky than good. That horseshoe fell out this year, and those risky throws are being picked.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm
by VikeFanInEagleLand
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:27 pm
To be fair to Teddy, every time he attempted a contested pass, his receiver failed to come down with it. I believe every interceptable pass he threw in 2015 was picked, so it is no wonder he would hesitate to throw risky passes. Case on the other hand, had a better Diggs and Thielen to bail him out of bad throws. He also seemed to play with a horseshoe up his butt, and was more lucky than good. That horseshoe fell out this year, and those risky throws are being picked.
I'm not sure I understand. Should a QB throw contested passes or shouldn't he?
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:08 pm
by fiestavike
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:27 pm
To be fair to Teddy, every time he attempted a contested pass, his receiver failed to come down with it. I believe every interceptable pass he threw in 2015 was picked, so it is no wonder he would hesitate to throw risky passes. Case on the other hand, had a better Diggs and Thielen to bail him out of bad throws. He also seemed to play with a horseshoe up his butt, and was more lucky than good. That horseshoe fell out this year, and those risky throws are being picked.
I'm not sure I understand. Should a QB throw contested passes or shouldn't he?
Too many variables to give a simple answer. Situational...who are his targets, what point in the game, where on the field, score, etc. Charles Johnson and Jarius Wrights probably weren't going to win a ton of contested passes, and its no surprise that Teddy had his best passes up the seams and on crossing patters given who he had to target.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 3:18 pm
by S197
fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:12 am
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:03 am
I liked Keenum's approach. It stood in contrast to exactly what I disliked about Bridgewater's game when he was a Viking. I felt he was very much the kind of QB who preferred to throw the ball away or dump it off rather than give a receiver in one-on-one coverage a chance to make a play.
Fair enough, but Teddy Bridgewater was, I believe, 21 when he was drafted and showed real promise. I believe Vikings fans were extremely impatient with him on the back of the Ponder experience, and in the near future, will seriously regret letting him go. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured.
I don't think it had much to do with giving up on him, it was a risk/reward play. The guy nearly lost a leg from a non-contact drill. This team was in their window to win and that unknown was simply too big to gamble on.
Zimmer absolutely loved Teddy, I have little doubt he would be here absent that horrific injury.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:04 pm
by YikesVikes
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:33 am
YikesVikes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:38 am
It's not that but you listed Josh Allen. Josh Allen? I respect your right to an opinion but it makes it hard to take it seriously.
What specifically don't you like about Josh Allen?
I think he has 7 tds and 13 ints. Sure, add the 6 rushing if you want.
But are you seriously comparing a guy with 13tds and more ints than passing tds to Kirk?
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:05 pm
by StumpHunter
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:27 pm
To be fair to Teddy, every time he attempted a contested pass, his receiver failed to come down with it. I believe every interceptable pass he threw in 2015 was picked, so it is no wonder he would hesitate to throw risky passes. Case on the other hand, had a better Diggs and Thielen to bail him out of bad throws. He also seemed to play with a horseshoe up his butt, and was more lucky than good. That horseshoe fell out this year, and those risky throws are being picked.
I'm not sure I understand. Should a QB throw contested passes or shouldn't he?
It depends on when and who you are throwing too. In 2015, it was unwise to throw contested passes. In 2017 it worked most of the time, but I would say Keenum took too many chances and threw too many passes that the receiver should not have caught.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:12 pm
by fiestavike
StumpHunter wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:05 pm
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 12:33 pm
I'm not sure I understand. Should a QB throw contested passes or shouldn't he?
It depends on when and who you are throwing too. In 2015, it was unwise to throw contested passes. In 2017 it worked most of the time, but I would say Keenum took too many chances and threw too many passes that the receiver should not have caught.
Part of what worked for Keenum is that he put a lot of air under those passes, and they were often short and allowed his WR to come back for the ball. This was caused by Keenum's deficiency in arm strength but it was highly effective. It makes for an interesting contrast with Cousins (who throws a much better ball) but who's 'misses' don't give his WRs any chance to make the play. The increase payoff (say, a 50 yard TD instead of a 40 yard pickup/PI penalty) doesn't seem to me worth the much greater likelihood of a 0 yard pickup.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:32 pm
by VikeFanInEagleLand
YikesVikes wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 5:04 pm
VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:33 am
What specifically don't you like about Josh Allen?
I think he has 7 tds and 13 ints. Sure, add the 6 rushing if you want.
But are you seriously comparing a guy with 13tds and more ints than passing tds to Kirk?
If you read my complete post I mentioned that some are on the list because of their upside. Not because I figure they can give us a Super Bowl win THIS year. So yes, I am saying that if Cousins can't win it for us this year or next year, we would be much better off with Allen. Do you want me to also list QB's that started their careers off with stats (which proves how unreliable stats are) like Allen. How about Steve Young 8 TD's 13 INT's, Drew Breese 11 TD's 16 INT's, John Elway 7 TD's 14 INT's to name a few. So are you seriously saying that you wouldn't take any of those guys?
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2018 7:32 pm
by YikesVikes
Mothman wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:26 am
fiestavike wrote: ↑Thu Dec 27, 2018 11:12 am
Fair enough, but Teddy Bridgewater was, I believe, 21 when he was drafted and showed real promise. I believe Vikings fans were extremely impatient with him on the back of the Ponder experience, and in the near future, will seriously regret letting him go. Who knows what would have happened if he hadn't been injured.
I think they were impatient with Ponder too. They both showed promise at times. Ponder obviously didn't work out for anybody. Maybe Bridgewater will and the Vikes will regret letting him go. I think he's supposed to start for the Saints this week so that will be interesting!
Ponder could not pass and was inaccurate. He performed well in practice but when it was game time he froze. He was awful. He was also much older than TB and had reached his peak. There is a reason he's not on a team now. He's terrible.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 1:02 am
by Purple Domination
All of this Ponder talk reminded me of this moment in Vikings history. And it was thrown from about the same spot on the field that Cousins threw his on Sunday.
http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... -fail-mary
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:55 am
by PurpleKoolaid
Hah I remember this perfectly. And there were some on this board that still thought Ponder was the answer. I hated Ponder so much I really wish he would get seriously injured. The only player I ever wished this on. A friend was at some festival a few years ago, and some bar was sponsoring something Ponder was promoting. There was even free booze (if you liked whiskey, which i certainly did) and I said there was no chance in hell I wanted to meet him or support anything he did.
Re: Min at DET post-game
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2018 8:38 am
by Pondering Her Percy
PurpleKoolaid wrote: ↑Fri Dec 28, 2018 3:55 am
Hah I remember this perfectly. And there were some on this board that still thought Ponder was the answer. I hated Ponder so much I really wish he would get seriously injured. The only player I ever wished this on. A friend was at some festival a few years ago, and some bar was sponsoring something Ponder was promoting. There was even free booze (if you liked whiskey, which i certainly did) and I said there was no chance in hell I wanted to meet him or support anything he did.
Pretty sure nobody thought Ponder was “still” the answer on this board. However guys wanted to give him time. No different than guys wanting to give Teddy more time if it wasn’t for his injury. Time is something you never really give guys (Waynes, Ponder, Treadwell, Cousins, etc).
Also, wished serious injury on the guy and wouldn’t support anything he did?!! It’s not like Ponder was a bad guy. Little over the top wouldn’t ya say?