Offseason Thread

[Cliff]

I thought Darnold was overpaid at 10 million. What made him worth more than double Mayfield's prove it deal?

In hindsight the coaches thought he was worth it and they were right.

As you posted we were better than our record because we lost Cousins and had nothing behind him. That should make a light go on for our FO, coaching staff and fans.

There aren't very many teams who are still a great team if their QB starter goes down. Even then, the #2 QB was injured too and eventually even the #3. The Vikings tried to remedy that last year by having JJM, Darnold, and Mullens. Then JJM doesn't even make it to the season.

Detroit is better than us. Our D couldn't stop Gibbs and that ended the whole thing. Looked like we had a slow and tired defense.

And I'm sure that's partially why they're fine letting several of the starters from last season walk. The secondary especially needs to get younger.

If I was running the team Darnold would stay unless a massive trade deal could be made. The tag will be 41 mill. JJM is an unknown right now. Even his health. Darnold like Cousins took a beating but both played through the beatings but were banged up. Can JJM do that? I have no idea. But the NFL isn't college. They all can hit and run at that level.

There can't be a trade unless they sign him. KOC has already said he won't tag him. I don't think he would tag any player which is a strategy I like. Players hate being tagged and one thing the team has going for it is being a player friendly environment. When signing players in FA often teams offer similar amounts of money and when it comes to "which team would you rather play for" the Vikings are high on the list.

Anyway, I think there are too many holes to pay a QB 40m+ when you've already paid for a QB in draft picks. They'll let FA set the price for Darnold and if it's low enough they'll resign him. Otherwise I think they'll move forward with the JJM plan. Perhaps Daniel Jones and JJM will end up battling for starter in camp.

I'm guessing after 2023 and given that JJM has already been injured they'll have a decent plan at backup QB. Whether it be Jones or someone else. There are some decent FA QBs out there that would make good backups even aside from Jones.

[StumpHunter]

Pretty much every deal he signed last year had void years attached.

As always with these situations, that money is gone and should be ignored as a factor in deciding to re-sign a player or not (if they need more cap to spend on other free agents, they can just do the exact same thing and add void years to lower the cost).

That's not exactly correct. If a player's contract is extended they have the ability to spread those void years out over the next contract rather than paying all at once. The salary cap also tends to expand every year and so "kicking the can down the road" a little can potentially allow you to pay out when you have more money to pay with.

Yes I understand that. Why it shouldn't make a difference is that if player A has X amount of cap come due because they leave in free agency, the Vikings can just move that X amount of dollars to future years of the player B they sign to replace player A.

[StumpHunter]

So the real question for me is, why is a team predicted to win 6 games at the start of last season inking one-year free agents to deals with void years, especially if that team isn't hard up against the cap?

Spreading cap spending out over multiple dead years can make sense I suppose if a team is hard up against the cap and mostly wants to retain as much core talent as possible because that team's core has had success. It doesn't make much sense for a team that is effectively rebuilding, especially when there are a lot of non-core players who are collecting those void year payments at the same time.

This isn't as bad as what the Wild did with Parise and Suter but it isn't good, either, especially considering how much turnover there is going to be on the defensive side of the ball.

Its not necessarily bad or good. Darnold costs 5 million for 2 years instead of 10 for one year. Kind of makes the burden of his signing over a period of time instead of all at once. Meanwhile some other players signed this year will have void years and offset his 5 million and on and on.

Jalen Hurts has void years from 2029 to 2032 at something like 92 million. Obviously they plan on resigning him and spreading it out lol

I agree, the usage of void years actually gives a team an advantage considering the cap keeps going up. With cap inflation, 5 million this year is worth more than 5 million next year if you look at cap hits as the % of the cap versus the total amount. So spending 5 million of this year's and 5 million of 2026's cap is going to have less of an impact on the cap than spending just 10 this year.

For small contracts like the ones Kwesi handed out in 2024, it really isn't that big of a deal what he did, but to your point about Hurts, whether the Eagles re-sign Hurts or not, they are in for a world of hurt in 2029. His contract is the oddest one I have seen, but it looks like even if they extend him there will be a 38+ million cap hit on top of what they sign him too. That kind of contract shenanigans you only do if you are in win now mode.

[StumpHunter]

One other thing to point out with cap inflation, longer contracts generally mean better value for the team (assuming the player works out that is).

So to VikingLord's question about why Kwesi signed a bunch of these short contracts on a team that was never going to compete for a Super Bowl, this method of signing players to 1 or 2 years is kind of dumb for a team trying to rebuild its roster.

[Cliff]

One other thing to point out with cap inflation, longer contracts generally mean better value for the team (assuming the player works out that is).

So to VikingLord's question about why Kwesi signed a bunch of these short contracts on a team that was never going to compete for a Super Bowl, this method of signing players to 1 or 2 years is kind of dumb for a team trying to rebuild its roster.

It doesn't make sense to sign players you don't necessarily want to keep to long contracts just for the sake of it. To me it seems like the players that they feel could potentially be "upgraded" got shorter contracts and players they want to hold onto got longer contracts. Makes sense to me.

[CharVike]

I thought Darnold was overpaid at 10 million. What made him worth more than double Mayfield's prove it deal?

In hindsight the coaches thought he was worth it and they were right.

As you posted we were better than our record because we lost Cousins and had nothing behind him. That should make a light go on for our FO, coaching staff and fans.

There aren't very many teams who are still a great team if their QB starter goes down. Even then, the #2 QB was injured too and eventually even the #3. The Vikings tried to remedy that last year by having JJM, Darnold, and Mullens. Then JJM doesn't even make it to the season.

Detroit is better than us. Our D couldn't stop Gibbs and that ended the whole thing. Looked like we had a slow and tired defense.

And I'm sure that's partially why they're fine letting several of the starters from last season walk. The secondary especially needs to get younger.

If I was running the team Darnold would stay unless a massive trade deal could be made. The tag will be 41 mill. JJM is an unknown right now. Even his health. Darnold like Cousins took a beating but both played through the beatings but were banged up. Can JJM do that? I have no idea. But the NFL isn't college. They all can hit and run at that level.

There can't be a trade unless they sign him. KOC has already said he won't tag him. I don't think he would tag any player which is a strategy I like. Players hate being tagged and one thing the team has going for it is being a player friendly environment. When signing players in FA often teams offer similar amounts of money and when it comes to "which team would you rather play for" the Vikings are high on the list.

Anyway, I think there are too many holes to pay a QB 40m+ when you've already paid for a QB in draft picks. They'll let FA set the price for Darnold and if it's low enough they'll resign him. Otherwise I think they'll move forward with the JJM plan. Perhaps Daniel Jones and JJM will end up battling for starter in camp.

I'm guessing after 2023 and given that JJM has already been injured they'll have a decent plan at backup QB. Whether it be Jones or someone else. There are some decent FA QBs out there that would make good backups even aside from Jones.

What you posted is probably how it will work out. It's the safest and easiest thing to do. I could then see Darnold continues to be a top 10 QB and JJM turns into another Gannon with a stronger arm.

[VikingLord]

I think a team able to win 14 games with Sam Darnold at QB should be thinking about what pieces they're missing to make a superbowl run.

I just don't see that as viable given where the team sits this offseason. I think the team vastly outperformed last season for the most part. They were better overall than the 13 win team two seasons prior, but nowhere near the top teams in the NFL and they quickly and meekly bowed out again in the first round to an opponent with obvious weaknesses that then got knocked out the following week by a better team.

This is a team with serious IOL talent deficits (3 starters), that needs more consistent production at the starting RB position (1 starter), that needs an interior DL presence (1 starter), and serious help in the defensive secondary (3 starters). That same team heads into this year's draft with 3 current picks and none between rounds 2-4.

Not sure what KAM's plan is. If paying Darnold insane money to come back for part deux of guiding a flawed team to a first round playoff exit is part of it, good luck to all, because they will need it.

The team as constructed last year was built for a one-year rebuild to be honest. They got a lot more out of it than I believe even they expected. I seriously doubt they'll be able to repeat that this year regardless of what they do in the draft and free agency, but maybe if McCarthy is the real deal they'll be able to remain somewhat competitive.

[StumpHunter]

One other thing to point out with cap inflation, longer contracts generally mean better value for the team (assuming the player works out that is).

So to VikingLord's question about why Kwesi signed a bunch of these short contracts on a team that was never going to compete for a Super Bowl, this method of signing players to 1 or 2 years is kind of dumb for a team trying to rebuild its roster.

It doesn't make sense to sign players you don't necessarily want to keep to long contracts just for the sake of it. To me it seems like the players that they feel could potentially be "upgraded" got shorter contracts and players they want to hold onto got longer contracts. Makes sense to me.

Not sure how it makes sense in a league where teams can just cut players with little repercussions depending on the guarantees remaining. If Kwesi had been a little more aggressive on adding years to some of these deals, and say signed Darnold, Jones and Griffin to 2 year deals, Darnold would be an actual trade asset, Jones would be forced to restructure or be cut, giving the Vikings actual leverage, and we would have a single competent vet CB returning instead of the 0 we currently have. The biggest head scratcher was the deal he gave AVG, who will be a free agent after this year.

It takes two to tango and those guys would have had to agree to longer deals, but I think all those players would have based on where they were at in their careers.

Just poor free agent team building for the future by a GM who is arguably the worst in the NFL at drafting.

[VikingLord]

This is really good stuff in this thread, but it begs the question for me of what exactly is KAM's plan here? It's like he's focused on the next season based on the moves he's making both in the draft and free agency and completely ignoring or at least heavily discounting the longer term impact of those decisions and failures to maximize positive outcomes. People say he's good in free agency, but I agree with Stump that if he were really all that good he'd have taken those discount free agent vets he inked to one year deals before last season and instead signed them to contracts that accounted for the possibility they had really good years, if for no other reason than he could possibly trade some of them to restock his upcoming draft board. But all he's got is a 14 win team that bowed out in the first round yet again and a team roster that resembles swiss cheese heading into this offseason. The team he built wasn't really competitive for anything meaningful and even if he could keep it together its arguable he would want to do that.

And let's not forget that KAM did try to re-sign Cousins too. He was saved from that by the Falcons, but does anyone thing last year's team comes anywhere near 14 wins had Cousins remained the starting QB?

What is the plan? Where is the logic that explains his moves to this point? Starting with his inexplicable trade down in the 1st round of his first draft I've often wondered whether KAM really has a plan or he's just making moves and hoping they work out. That first year I thought he was under some sort of directive from the Wilfs that might have tied his hands and that could at least partially explain some of the moves he made. Now, though, I don't think he is, and yet the inexplicable moves (like trading most of this year's draft to move up in the 1st round to select a role player DE) continue.

If past performance is indicative of future performance, I expect more inexplicable moves both in FA and the upcoming draft. The fact the team has enjoyed winning seasons under KAM might be the most inexplicable part of this all. Maybe KOC is just that good of a head coach, or maybe the Vikings have been more lucky than not during his tenure, but I don't see that continuing for much longer. I hope I'm not right about that.

[CharVike]

This is really good stuff in this thread, but it begs the question for me of what exactly is KAM's plan here? It's like he's focused on the next season based on the moves he's making both in the draft and free agency and completely ignoring or at least heavily discounting the longer term impact of those decisions and failures to maximize positive outcomes. People say he's good in free agency, but I agree with Stump that if he were really all that good he'd have taken those discount free agent vets he inked to one year deals before last season and instead signed them to contracts that accounted for the possibility they had really good years, if for no other reason than he could possibly trade some of them to restock his upcoming draft board. But all he's got is a 14 win team that bowed out in the first round yet again and a team roster that resembles swiss cheese heading into this offseason. The team he built wasn't really competitive for anything meaningful and even if he could keep it together its arguable he would want to do that.

And let's not forget that KAM did try to re-sign Cousins too. He was saved from that by the Falcons, but does anyone thing last year's team comes anywhere near 14 wins had Cousins remained the starting QB?

What is the plan? Where is the logic that explains his moves to this point? Starting with his inexplicable trade down in the 1st round of his first draft I've often wondered whether KAM really has a plan or he's just making moves and hoping they work out. That first year I thought he was under some sort of directive from the Wilfs that might have tied his hands and that could at least partially explain some of the moves he made. Now, though, I don't think he is, and yet the inexplicable moves (like trading most of this year's draft to move up in the 1st round to select a role player DE) continue.

If past performance is indicative of future performance, I expect more inexplicable moves both in FA and the upcoming draft. The fact the team has enjoyed winning seasons under KAM might be the most inexplicable part of this all. Maybe KOC is just that good of a head coach, or maybe the Vikings have been more lucky than not during his tenure, but I don't see that continuing for much longer. I hope I'm not right about that.

Every year you can say this can't continue and so far it has except for the year when he lost his QB. Who knows what last years team would have done with Cousins. It certainly wouldn't have been the SB because we lack the LOS players on both sides to compete against the highest level teams like the Eagles. IMO Darnold looks like a better QB than Cousins just based on his physical skills. Perhaps that is why one was a stud top 5 pick and the other was a 4th round stiff. I thought KAM said he wanted a competitive rebuild and so far he has accomplished that to a certain extent. Winning 14 games is certainly competitive but he has made limited progress on the rebuild side. Our best players are the ones that were already here when he stepped into the building. Since he has proven to date that drafting isn't his strong point he'll need to sign some FAs and this time around most of them could be guys like Murphy, Bynum ect. Keep your own. IMO and I posted this from the hire is no SB in the initial 4 year contract then see both of you later. Those 2 were both lucky that there was a good vet QB here and some skill players to keep you in most games. This year we could depend on the D for the most part and Sammy developed into why he was a top 5 pick. I'll give the coaching credit for that.

[CharVike]

Looks like there will be some interesting QB shuffles this year. The Rams told Stafford & his reps to look for another opportunity. Maybe the Rams will get southern Cali boy Rodgers as a one year push for the SB. Maybe after seeing Sammy twice this year they will bring him back home and help with the push. Since the Jets have hired Speilman as a sounding board I expect them to get one of his draft favorites Fields or for a long shot Cpt. check down Kirk. Rodgers and Kirk appear to be done so maybe Sammy is the guy. One other I saw the Steelers linked to 10 cent Danny.

[Cliff]

It doesn't make sense to sign players you don't necessarily want to keep to long contracts just for the sake of it. To me it seems like the players that they feel could potentially be "upgraded" got shorter contracts and players they want to hold onto got longer contracts. Makes sense to me.

Not sure how it makes sense in a league where teams can just cut players with little repercussions depending on the guarantees remaining. If Kwesi had been a little more aggressive on adding years to some of these deals, and say signed Darnold, Jones and Griffin to 2 year deals, Darnold would be an actual trade asset, Jones would be forced to restructure or be cut, giving the Vikings actual leverage, and we would have a single competent vet CB returning instead of the 0 we currently have. The biggest head scratcher was the deal he gave AVG, who will be a free agent after this year.

It takes two to tango and those guys would have had to agree to longer deals, but I think all those players would have based on where they were at in their careers.

Just poor free agent team building for the future by a GM who is arguably the worst in the NFL at drafting.

The repercussion is that you've given more money to a player you don't necessarily want to keep long term. Longer contracts almost always come with more guaranteed money. Griffin is 30 and a part of the defense that was often too slow and needs to get younger. Darnold was signed as a stop-gap insurance policy for JJM, and AVG was signed to a 2 year contract like you were just talking about. He'll be 31 in 2026 and they drafted his heir apparent already.

Meanwhile they've given longer contracts to those players they want to make sure to keep around. Darrisaw, Jefferson, Greenard, and Hockenson specifically.

KAM has actually been pretty good in free agency in my opinion. Yes, they need to fill several holes in the secondary but they basically already did. They'd just be cutting them and taking more of a loss rather than them walking in FA.

[VikingLord]

One other thing to point out with cap inflation, longer contracts generally mean better value for the team (assuming the player works out that is).

So to VikingLord's question about why Kwesi signed a bunch of these short contracts on a team that was never going to compete for a Super Bowl, this method of signing players to 1 or 2 years is kind of dumb for a team trying to rebuild its roster.

It doesn't make sense to sign players you don't necessarily want to keep to long contracts just for the sake of it. To me it seems like the players that they feel could potentially be "upgraded" got shorter contracts and players they want to hold onto got longer contracts. Makes sense to me.

I get the logic - we need a guy to fill this hole while we look for someone better, but that doesn't account for the possibility that the guy might actually over-perform and thus have increased value either to other teams or even the Vikings. If that is the way KAM is thinking then it shows he presumes quite a bit about how his hand is going to play out. Good GMs create and keep as many options open as possible and the moves they make create additional moves they can make rather than close them off.

I really hope I can understand KAM's moves in the upcoming draft. He sits with the 24th pick right now and there is a very good chance he will have a shot at one of Tyler Booker (G out of Alabama), Nick Emmanwori (S out of South Carolina), Malaki Starks (S out of Georgia), Shemar Stewart (DE out of Texas A&M), or Omarion Hampton (RB out of North Carolina). Any one of those guys would be an instant, potentially impact, starter, with 4 of the 5 filling a position of immediate need as well. I want to see if KAM recognizes that or, as he did when he passed on Jordan Davis and Kyle Hamilton in his first draft, he trades down for more picks. And if he does decide to trade back and pass on impact players like those listed above, what does he get in return for the trade, both in terms of picks and players?

The question will be "has KAM learned from his past mistakes, and can he demonstrate he recognizes real talent when it falls into his lap"?

[CharVike]

Carter added to coaching staff
After losing Shaun Sarrett to the Jacksonville Jaguars, the Vikings have hired Keith Carter as an offensive line coach.

In his past, Carter has spent time as the offensive line coach of Tennessee Titans and the New York Jets. In his new role, Carter will report directly to Chris Kuper, who has been the Vikings’ offensive line coach since O’Connell took over.

“I wanted to take the opportunity to get a former No. 1 and a guy that’s been involved in some of the best rushing attacks,” O’Connell said. “He really wanted to come to Minnesota and he’s going to be able to help us a lot and infuse some things into our run game.”

Though some have criticized Carter for his approach, the Vikings did their due diligence and felt comfortable hiring him.

“You’ll find some things about him in regards to being tough on his players,” O’Connell said. “I think in the No. 2 role, he’s going to be really good for us, and he’s in a great spot in his career to really help us.”

[VikingLord]

Carter added to coaching staff
After losing Shaun Sarrett to the Jacksonville Jaguars, the Vikings have hired Keith Carter as an offensive line coach.

In his past, Carter has spent time as the offensive line coach of Tennessee Titans and the New York Jets. In his new role, Carter will report directly to Chris Kuper, who has been the Vikings’ offensive line coach since O’Connell took over.

“I wanted to take the opportunity to get a former No. 1 and a guy that’s been involved in some of the best rushing attacks,” O’Connell said. “He really wanted to come to Minnesota and he’s going to be able to help us a lot and infuse some things into our run game.”

Though some have criticized Carter for his approach, the Vikings did their due diligence and felt comfortable hiring him.

“You’ll find some things about him in regards to being tough on his players,” O’Connell said. “I think in the No. 2 role, he’s going to be really good for us, and he’s in a great spot in his career to really help us.”

Coaching is not what ails the Vikings OL in my opinion. I mean, if the coach were to blame for it I'm curious why Sarrett was picked up by another NFL team.

Losing Darrisaw did hurt last year, but if the Vikings are going to fix the OL they need to get bigger and stronger inside.