J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 4:56 pm
Malik Willis is an impressive athlete with a cannon for an arm and incredible instincts. But comparing him to Deshaun Watson is unfair to him.
Willis is the polar opposite of Kirk Cousins, and I don't mean that in a good way. For whatever faults Cousins has, he can run and command an offense. He can play within a system. Malik Willis doesn't have the first clue as to how to play within a system. He's played four years of Hero Ball, which works in Division III but will get him eaten alive in the NFL.
There's a chance Malik Willis will someday be a franchise quarterback. He certainly has the tools. But he's not close to Deshaun Watson, who has played within pro-style systems and had success at the highest levels everywhere he's been. If Willis ever gets to Watson's level, it will take time. Experts are saying at least 3 years. That's not me. That's many, many draft analysts. Division III quarterbacks are a real risk, as the league is finding out with Carson Wentz, who's about to be cut, and Trey Lance, whom many are saying will not be ready to start for S.F. next year.
If the Vikings are willing to take the risk and DEVELOP him, I'd be fine with them drafting him. But we fans would need to be very, very patient.
Didn't he play for Liberty or am I thinking of another guy? Liberty is an independent FBS school.
Liberty, yes. My bad. He's not Division III.
But Liberty is still a school that plays at a level far below the Power 5 or even the Group of 5. And the scouts are in unison ... he's going to wow people at the Combine, but he's going to struggle in a system. That doesn't mean he won't work out as an NFL quarterback. It's just that if we expect him to come into the NFL and be Justin Herbert his first season, we're likely to be disappointed.
Again, I'm all-in if the Vikings draft him. But Deshaun Watson he's not ... not yet.
Willis started his career at auburn and transferred to liberty (per Willis he was too immature at auburn). He has played under Hugh Freeze (see ole miss) at Liberty. Liberty actually cracked the top 25 during the covid 20 season. He hasn't played anything other than fbs.
Not taking away anything from Kapp's point. Which is Willis needs development, and isn't the same level Watson was coming out of college.
makila wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 9:42 am
I don't see him moving until there is clarity on his legal situation. Such risk for a team to give up serious assets only for him to turn around and be unable to play. Whether by nfl or legal system.
Correct. If what you said wasn't true he would have been moved last year.
From a pure football standpoint he is a massive upgrade over our current QB, but there is a good chance he will never play football again.
What evidence do you have to support the claim that he's a MASSIVE upgrade
CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:25 pm
Your right that whole thing was bad. We had the same thing. Our GM and HC weren't talking for who knows how long. Probably since the Cousins signing. Our HC and QB never spoke to each other. Both organization were a mess. But everyone pins the wins and loses on the QB. That's part of the deal. People who want Cousins out call him a loser on our mess. People think that Cousins can play some ball blame everything but him. And he has had some crap games like the one against Atlanta when he threw 3 picks in the first half. He should have been benched because it wan't there for him. Our problem is nothing on the bench. We still have that. At least the Texans could put there 3rd rd pick in a game and he could function. Ours can't even function. Bottom line every QB that has played this game needs something around them to be good. Frans career shows that. If we had Jimmy G he wouldn't do what he does IMO. Watson made the playoffs and for what it's worth he is 1-2. Cousins is 1-3. Neither lite the playoffs up like Jimmy G. But Jimmy always had a better team around him. Maybe he helps make them better. Who knows.
We have covered this countless times over the past few months. I have yet to hear of a single poster on this board blame Cousins and only Cousins for every loss we've had. I have also not heard of a single poster give credit to Cousins and Cousins only for every win. That would be asinine and every rational fan knows this.
However, when looking at QB's, I do think it's important to see how that player impacted his teams win. Is he clutch in the 4th quarter? Was he a quarterback who regularly got to the playoffs? Was he a QB of a team that won in the playoffs? What was the make-up of the rest of the team. Was he serviceable despite having a horrible defense? Was it clear he was a good player despite playing on an awful team?
There are countless factors that go into getting the right guy to lead the right team. All is not equal. This isn't video game football, it's real life football.
In regards to Watson, his stats the last few years were awesome, despite the franchise being a wreck. Even in that last season he had almost 5,000 yards, 33 tds and 7 ints. In his case there were far bigger issues than the QB position. That doesn't mean he's an all-world player. My personal opinion is he'd be an upgrade for most NFL teams if he gets the option to play again, but that is just my opinion. Based more on what I've seen with my eyes and not his teams record that last season he was a starter.
I don't play video games. Cousins has thrown over 30 TDs the last two seasons. Over 4000 yards the last two seasons. He has done it in the past. Cousins can't win. Our team isn't very good. Our D the last two seasons has been bad like I've never seen it. Our FO has been a joke for ??? nobody knows. Nobody talks. Even making the playoffs don't tell the story. The NFL and this goes for stats, win loses, winning the division ect has always been lopsided. That NFC east sucks so Dallas will win it easily. Put them in the NFC west and that will change. The road is much harder. Even when you post is he clutch. That can mean anything. Some people say intangibles well I have no idea what that is. For a QB to have success, again what does that mean, let's say win the division and not the NFC east because there is no teams there then they need a team around them. There are some teams that no QB will lead to success. Watson proved that when he won 4 games with a junk team. That team only won 4 again this year. Different QB same deal. I don't matter. They are a bad org. We were in the same boat.
vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:27 pm
We have covered this countless times over the past few months. I have yet to hear of a single poster on this board blame Cousins and only Cousins for every loss we've had. I have also not heard of a single poster give credit to Cousins and Cousins only for every win. That would be asinine and every rational fan knows this.
However, when looking at QB's, I do think it's important to see how that player impacted his teams win. Is he clutch in the 4th quarter? Was he a quarterback who regularly got to the playoffs? Was he a QB of a team that won in the playoffs? What was the make-up of the rest of the team. Was he serviceable despite having a horrible defense? Was it clear he was a good player despite playing on an awful team?
There are countless factors that go into getting the right guy to lead the right team. All is not equal. This isn't video game football, it's real life football.
In regards to Watson, his stats the last few years were awesome, despite the franchise being a wreck. Even in that last season he had almost 5,000 yards, 33 tds and 7 ints. In his case there were far bigger issues than the QB position. That doesn't mean he's an all-world player. My personal opinion is he'd be an upgrade for most NFL teams if he gets the option to play again, but that is just my opinion. Based more on what I've seen with my eyes and not his teams record that last season he was a starter.
I don't play video games. Cousins has thrown over 30 TDs the last two seasons. Over 4000 yards the last two seasons. He has done it in the past. Cousins can't win. Our team isn't very good. Our D the last two seasons has been bad like I've never seen it. Our FO has been a joke for ??? nobody knows. Nobody talks. Even making the playoffs don't tell the story. The NFL and this goes for stats, win loses, winning the division ect has always been lopsided. That NFC east sucks so Dallas will win it easily. Put them in the NFC west and that will change. The road is much harder. Even when you post is he clutch. That can mean anything. Some people say intangibles well I have no idea what that is. For a QB to have success, again what does that mean, let's say win the division and not the NFC east because there is no teams there then they need a team around them. There are some teams that no QB will lead to success. Watson proved that when he won 4 games with a junk team. That team only won 4 again this year. Different QB same deal. I don't matter. They are a bad org. We were in the same boat.
One more point. Every year we have a different OC. This year we had a guy that never should have been an OC. He's back in Denver now in some BS position and it's just a favor for the name. I'm sure some will say that don't matter. Well I think it's an important position. Just like a DC is important. Both those position help or hurt the team.
vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:19 pm
Didn't he play for Liberty or am I thinking of another guy? Liberty is an independent FBS school.
Liberty, yes. My bad. He's not Division III.
But Liberty is still a school that plays at a level far below the Power 5 or even the Group of 5. And the scouts are in unison ... he's going to wow people at the Combine, but he's going to struggle in a system. That doesn't mean he won't work out as an NFL quarterback. It's just that if we expect him to come into the NFL and be Justin Herbert his first season, we're likely to be disappointed.
Again, I'm all-in if the Vikings draft him. But Deshaun Watson he's not ... not yet.
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:09 pm
Liberty, yes. My bad. He's not Division III.
But Liberty is still a school that plays at a level far below the Power 5 or even the Group of 5. And the scouts are in unison ... he's going to wow people at the Combine, but he's going to struggle in a system. That doesn't mean he won't work out as an NFL quarterback. It's just that if we expect him to come into the NFL and be Justin Herbert his first season, we're likely to be disappointed.
Again, I'm all-in if the Vikings draft him. But Deshaun Watson he's not ... not yet.
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
This kid reminds me of Jamarcus Russell, high praise in college But mediocre in the pros
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
This kid reminds me of Jamarcus Russell, high praise in college But mediocre in the pros
Things get into Kirks head and affect his play on the field. I wonder how Kirk would function knowing his replacement was on the bench?
J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:09 pm
Liberty, yes. My bad. He's not Division III.
But Liberty is still a school that plays at a level far below the Power 5 or even the Group of 5. And the scouts are in unison ... he's going to wow people at the Combine, but he's going to struggle in a system. That doesn't mean he won't work out as an NFL quarterback. It's just that if we expect him to come into the NFL and be Justin Herbert his first season, we're likely to be disappointed.
Again, I'm all-in if the Vikings draft him. But Deshaun Watson he's not ... not yet.
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
I don't know why any team would spend a 1st rounder on this guy. He's a long term development guy. Does that sound like a 1st rounder to anyone? I know the value of QBs. Willis is the typical dual threat guy. He gets a big advantage with his running ability because it breaks defenses down and plays become jail breaks. Guys will be wide open which makes the throw easier. That's college ball. In the NFL things are different. Yes the jail break stuff works and it's entertaining for the fans who don't like passing. Based on the Rams they don't look for the dual threats. That's not the offense they run. Goff and Stafford are basically flat footed guys. People will say Goff sucks but that wasn't always the case. Look it up. He lost it for some reason. Seems now 40 speed is a big deal with QB prospects and Goff ran a 4.8 and people mad fun of him. Who cares about that crap. He was a fantastic passer. In the end that's what it will come down to. Eventually you better be able to pass. If not you won't be around. Willis lacks accuracy and if you can't throw an accurate ball it's over. It's hard to throw the ball in the NFL and that's why half the teams need a QB. It's also why the same bums/bridges keep floating from team to team and it never ends. The NFL is begging teams to throw and they change the rules to make throwing easier all the time. That didn't start now. It's been like that for sometime now. The pocket is the safest place for a QB. But some teams send there guys out there running through defenses. That's the lions den stay out. That's stupid beyond stupid. Below are the 4 QBs that were in this years conf champ games. Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Matthew Stafford, Jimmy Garoppolo. Does anyone see a dual threat in that group? I don't. But the media states you can't win without a dual threat. That's not close to true. Mahomes has some movement but the rest are flat footed guys from all ages. Don't look like you can't win to me.
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
I don't know why any team would spend a 1st rounder on this guy. He's a long term development guy. Does that sound like a 1st rounder to anyone?
He has 1st round potential due to his ceiling as a passer and his athleticism. He possesses physical traits that can't be developed or taught. He's kind of like a player who runs a 4.3 at the combine. Can't teach speed or develop elite speed through training. A guy either has that or he doesn't.
So a team that drafts Willis has to place a bet that they can mold and develop the traits that can be taught, which are essentially how to read defenses pre and post snap, better anticipate receivers coming open, scramble to throw rather than scramble to run, etc. A team with confidence in its QB coaching and offensive coordinator that also has an established starter in place that allows Willis the time to develop and learn has a good chance of turning Willis into a game altering QB in the pros. The kind of QB that actually scares opposing defenses because of his arm talent, ability to keep plays alive, and ability to break down how the defense is playing him.
I'd be OK if the Vikings took Willis at #12. It's a huge bet, but given they have Cousins in place and KOC is supposed to be an excellent coach (which he should be since he's a former QB himself), Willis would be coming into a situation that is very favorable to his ability to properly develop. I like his potential and think he could be a QB that torments defenses for a long time. We haven't had a QB like that for the Vikings since Fran Tarkenton.
vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:19 pm
Didn't he play for Liberty or am I thinking of another guy? Liberty is an independent FBS school.
Liberty, yes. My bad. He's not Division III.
But Liberty is still a school that plays at a level far below the Power 5 or even the Group of 5. And the scouts are in unison ... he's going to wow people at the Combine, but he's going to struggle in a system. That doesn't mean he won't work out as an NFL quarterback. It's just that if we expect him to come into the NFL and be Justin Herbert his first season, we're likely to be disappointed.
Again, I'm all-in if the Vikings draft him. But Deshaun Watson he's not ... not yet.
Totally agree. It's a tough road coming from the FCS, but it's doable.
I'm an FCS guy, so I always have my eye on the studs of this division. I played against Jared Allen and he put together a nice career coming from little old FCS Idaho State. Super Bowl MVP Cooper Kupp is an FCS kid from Eastern Washington. I'm a Big Sky conference guy so I loved hearing about how this undersized white kid from the FCS would never do anything in the NFL.
Sometimes kids are just late bloomers, and don't get the opportunities out of high school. But your point remains. Seems like this kid has enough to at least garner some talk from the powers that be in the league. Good for him.
I'm biased, but keep your ears open about my guy Troy Andersen from Montana State. He was one of only a few FCS players invited to the Senior Bowl and called plays on defense. He's a freak athlete and people are assuming the combine will only upgrade his draft status. 6'4", 235lb LB and was the third fastest guy on defense at the Senior Bowl behind two FBS CB's. Just my plug for my hometown kid who I think will be another FCS kid with a shot at a good NFL career.
Things get into Kirks head and affect his play on the field. I wonder how Kirk would function knowing his replacement was on the bench?
Another myth like check down Charlie
On 3rd and 4-12 (long enough where a check down is possible, short enough where throwing for a 1st is still reasonable), Cousins is 20th out of 31 QBs since 2018 in percentage of completions without a 1st down (check downs). He checks down a lot.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:09 pm
and needs perfect conditions to succeed.
He hasn't succeeded yet, so you are correct, there is no proof this is true. It is entirely possible he could have perfect conditions and still fail.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:09 pm
Another myth like check down Charlie
On 3rd and 4-12 (long enough where a check down is possible, short enough where throwing for a 1st is still reasonable), Cousins is 20th out of 31 QBs since 2018 in percentage of completions without a 1st down (check downs). He checks down a lot.
VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:09 pm
and needs perfect conditions to succeed.
He hasn't succeeded yet, so you are correct, there is no proof this is true. It is entirely possible he could have perfect conditions and still fail.
Another absurd reply as I have learned to expect. Cousins has succeeded many, many times and has never had perfect conditions. His average depth of target was top 10 last I checked. This may have changed so you can dig deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepppppppppppppp to see if that is still true.
You don't need to do the digging. I did it. Of QBs that threw more than 100 passes in 2021 Cousins was exactly 10th.I dug a little deeeeeeeper and found a stat called air yards per attempt before being caught and Cousins was 3rd behind Burrow and Stafford, but the number was 4.8 so that didn't make sense to me. Maybe you can explain it.
I'm sure you can do some deeeeeeeeeper digging like from above to support your position. That's the thing with you. If research doesn't support your stance you just keep looking for something until it does. You will never acknowledge any stats that don't support your position.
You used to be all about the last minute drives being all that mattered. However, this year since Cousins got really good at last minute drives those no longer mattered. The new stat that mattered was 3 and outs. It doesn't matter that Cousins was top 10 in yards, TDs, low interceptions and the list goes on and on and on. Next year it will change to total touchdown passes on every Monday night game that comes after a blue moon.
Plus, they'd likely have to spend their 1st rounder on him and maybe even trade up to get him depending on how he shows prior to the draft. I get the sense Willis is the sort of player who is going to get a lot of QB needy GMs to fall in love with his potential prior to draft day.
As an additional comment to your earlier points about Willis and Deshaun Watson, I agree with what you're saying. I didn't mean to imply that Willis can come in and perform at the level of Watson, but more that he resembles Watson in terms of play style, athleticism, and potential as a pro. If the Vikings drafted him I'd want them to keep Cousins as the starter for at least a year because Willis is going to take time before he's ready.
This kid reminds me of Jamarcus Russell, high praise in college But mediocre in the pros
Reminds me of a shorter TJacker. I seen that for 5 years not to many fond memories that I can think of. Can't think of anything really. He was a star bridge QB. That was Chilldogs big move. Just play Mannion. Same result. Instead of throwing away a 1st round pick how about Kyle Hamilton S Notre Dame. 6' 4" makes it tough to throw over this guy. Get rid of money hungry Harrison Smith. I wonder if he's worth a draft pick? I doubt it.
