Fire everyone and start all over please

[StumpHunter]

Risk of firing Rick and Zimmer:
You lose a GM who is okay at drafting and the next guy might be worse.

You lose a HC who, when given the right talent, puts together a solid defensive game plan most Sundays and the next guy might not even do that.

I wouldn't argue too much with anyone who wanted to fire both, but IMO if you are looking at it from the perspective of "we could do worse", IMO Rick sticks around longer than Zim in that analysis. IOW, the chances of finding worse than Rick are higher than the chances of finding worse than Zim, and for me it's not that tight of a race.

Still, theoretically we could do better at each position. But made-up statistics in my head say we'd be better off firing coaching staff first.

Yeah, I don't see it. This team is currently devoid of talent while being up against the cap. That is the biggest problem we are facing this year and going forward outside of the QB going full Winston mode on the interceptions. We have nice pieces at WR, RB, MLB and safety. The LT, RT and RDE are solid starters, but the rest of this squad would be backups on a SB contending team.

There are 11-13 starters on this team who shouldn't be seeing starter snaps and not a lot behind them on the bench. Is that not on the GM?

[psjordan]

Listen to Zimmer in his presser after yesterday's game. At 1:25, a reporter asks if he ever thinks about replacing Cousins when he has a day like yesterday, and throws 3 interceptions in a half. He answers curtly, "No," and feels no obligation to expound on the answer. This is what angers me about Zimmer. In this instance, he acts like the reporter was absurd for asking the question.

Hmmm. I don’t see anything wrong with Zim’s answer of “no”. Did it not answer the question asked? He’s there to answer questions asked. And answers get terse after a bad loss. And yes, it was an absurd "gotcha" question. If the answer was "yes", wouldn't Zim have replaced Kirk during this game?

Not a lot of teams have “interchangeable during a rout” QB1 and QB2’s. CHI, DAL, WAS and maybe CLE? Those aren’t exactly bastions of solid football the last several years. Most teams are in the same situation as us talent-wise between QB1 and QB2.

This Kirk quote worries me however, from https://www.nfl.com/news/kirk-cousins-v ... the-season:
"I need to correct it," Cousins said. "I need to finish the season with a different story, regarding the interceptions, so that's something I need to improve with the remaining games we have. I don't know that I'd limit it to the interceptions. I think it's just the entire offensive performance. It's just, I need to be better, we need to be better."

Good golly I hate that rhetoric from a 32 year-old, 8-year veteran. That quote from a rookie, sure, I can accept. But if Kirk has not “gotten better” at the crucial aspects of being an NFL QB by now, he ain’t never getting there with this coaching staff. Another quote that worries me even more:

"There's a little bit of, you got to improve. Whether it's them telling me, 'Hey, we gotta improve,' or them pulling me; we got to get better.”

It sounds like our coaching philosophy to help Kirk get better is to tell him to get better. Sure, yup, that outta work.

The answer Zimmer is avoiding is this: "We haven't really put a competitive player in the QB2 spot and we have overpaid for Cousins, so we will roll with him regardless of how poorly he plays".

Not even a Pop Warner coach will give you that quote, so deriding Zim for not saying it is unrealistic.

[FredJohnson22]

I still don't think any credible GM would want the Vikes' job right now. MAYBE Paton because he's already on staff. Plus, the owners don't want to pay a GM to sit at home, pay a new GM AND have lower revenue due to empty stands.
Regardless of your opinions of fire or keep Spielman, I think the owners will keep him for at least 2 more years beyond this year.
(All bets are off if the team goes 1-15 - they might sell the team then)

[StumpHunter]

Cleveland had an awful game for those of you wondering.

His first start mirrored both Elf's and Samia's first starts with 5 pressures, 1 sack and 3 hits given up.

Another rookie our great GM drafted who Zimmer should have been starting all along that fails as soon as he sees the field.

Gladney, Dantzler and Cleveland down, Wonnum and Lynch to go.

Not every rookie is Justin Jefferson, ready to come in and contribute in a big way. The vast majority aren't.

[psjordan]

Yeah, I don't see it. This team is currently devoid of talent while being up against the cap.
There are 11-13 starters on this team who shouldn't be seeing starter snaps and not a lot behind them on the bench. Is that not on the GM?

Well no, not in my book. My book says it is largely on the coaching staff for failing to develop talent. I see it all the time. YMMV. The wrong approach by a coaching staff can ruin a player more or less permanently. I mean, how likely is it statistically that first and second round selections Hughes/Alexander/Waynes/Rhodes at the same position have not panned out as long-term studs - with a defensive-minded HC?

I don't put those player failures at the feet of the GM, not when I can point at four clear examples of drafting talent. Those guys have/had talent, and Rhodes showed great promise.

And if you want to claim Cousins contract situation led to us decimating the secondary, well, I can't make that direct connection. There seems to be reasons we chose those guys to let go. Trust me, if Alexander/Waynes/Rhodes were happy and playing at an all pro level with us there would have been a way to keep some of that talent.

And I do believe (I could be wrong) there is an "agreement to get consensus" between Rick and Zim when it comes to major decisions. Whether that's a draft choice, contract or a release, I don't believe it's simply Rick telling everyone "this is what we are doing and you'll like it".

[Texas Vike]

Listen to Zimmer in his presser after yesterday's game. At 1:25, a reporter asks if he ever thinks about replacing Cousins when he has a day like yesterday, and throws 3 interceptions in a half. He answers curtly, "No," and feels no obligation to expound on the answer. This is what angers me about Zimmer. In this instance, he acts like the reporter was absurd for asking the question.

Hmmm. I don’t see anything wrong with Zim’s answer of “no”. Did it not answer the question asked? He’s there to answer questions asked. And answers get terse after a bad loss. And yes, it was an absurd "gotcha" question. If the answer was "yes", wouldn't Zim have replaced Kirk during this game?

Not a lot of teams have “interchangeable during a rout” QB1 and QB2’s. CHI, DAL, WAS and maybe CLE? Those aren’t exactly bastions of solid football the last several years. Most teams are in the same situation as us talent-wise between QB1 and QB2.

This Kirk quote worries me however, from https://www.nfl.com/news/kirk-cousins-v ... the-season:
"I need to correct it," Cousins said. "I need to finish the season with a different story, regarding the interceptions, so that's something I need to improve with the remaining games we have. I don't know that I'd limit it to the interceptions. I think it's just the entire offensive performance. It's just, I need to be better, we need to be better."

Good golly I hate that rhetoric from a 32 year-old, 8-year veteran. That quote from a rookie, sure, I can accept. But if Kirk has not “gotten better” at the crucial aspects of being an NFL QB by now, he ain’t never getting there with this coaching staff. Another quote that worries me even more:

"There's a little bit of, you got to improve. Whether it's them telling me, 'Hey, we gotta improve,' or them pulling me; we got to get better.”

It sounds like our coaching philosophy to help Kirk get better is to tell him to get better. Sure, yup, that outta work.

The answer Zimmer is avoiding is this: "We haven't really put a competitive player in the QB2 spot and we have overpaid for Cousins, so we will roll with him regardless of how poorly he plays".

Not even a Pop Warner coach will give you that quote, so deriding Zim for not saying it is unrealistic.

You dislike Kirk's answer, in which he admits that "them pulling me" would be a rational response, but you have no problem with Zimmer's terse "no" to the only good question of his entire presser? That's telling.

This franchise has failed miserably in its handling of the QB position for years. The press's role is not to flatter and ask softball questions. An informed, critical reporter SHOULD ask these kinds of questions. It isn't a "gotcha" question. It is absolutely absurd that we don't have a second option to go at QB.

Let me ask you this: if three interceptions in a half of football isn't enough for you or Zimmer to consider putting your backup QB in, what number would be? Would you do it at 5 interceptions? 6? 10? Or are there literally no circumstances under which you would pull him?

[StumpHunter]

Yeah, I don't see it. This team is currently devoid of talent while being up against the cap.
There are 11-13 starters on this team who shouldn't be seeing starter snaps and not a lot behind them on the bench. Is that not on the GM?

Well no, not in my book. My book says it is largely on the coaching staff for failing to develop talent. I see it all the time. YMMV. The wrong approach by a coaching staff can ruin a player more or less permanently. I mean, how likely is it statistically that first and second round selections Hughes/Alexander/Waynes/Rhodes at the same position have not panned out as long-term studs - with a defensive-minded HC?

I don't put those player failures at the feet of the GM, not when I can point at four clear examples of drafting talent. Those guys have/had talent, and Rhodes showed great promise.

And if you want to claim Cousins contract situation led to us decimating the secondary, well, I can't make that direct connection. There seems to be reasons we chose those guys to let go. Trust me, if Alexander/Waynes/Rhodes were happy and playing at an all pro level with us there would have been a way to keep some of that talent.

And I do believe (I could be wrong) there is an "agreement to get consensus" between Rick and Zim when it comes to major decisions. Whether that's a draft choice, contract or a release, I don't believe it's simply Rick telling everyone "this is what we are doing and you'll like it".

Rhodes did play at an all pro level with us, he had a down year last year, and is better in Indy, but his best overall season was under Zimmer. Mack is not playing as well in Cincy as he did here and we have no idea if Waynes or Hughes would be better elsewhere. We do know Waynes played well enough here to get a massive contract this past season.

You are making some assumptions about the talent that is or isn't being developed that you don't really have evidence to be true. We do know that Zimmer developed a top 2 defense in 2017, and top 5 in 2016 and 2018 and top 10 in 2019. We don't know if another coach could have done better with that talent. Hunter, Kendricks, Smith, Harris, Rhodes in 2017 are all elite/borderline elite players that Zimmer developed. Could another coach have done better? Possibly, but I doubt there are many that could have if they do exist.

[vikeinmontana]

Maybe we'll win one or two games this season, draft Lawrence, and hire Dabo in a package deal!

[psjordan]

You dislike Kirk's answer, in which he admits that "them pulling me" would be a rational response, but you have no problem with Zimmer's terse "no" to the only good question of his entire presser? That's telling.

How so? Kirk doesn't control whether he gets pulled or not, so his opinion is a side note. The only opinion that matters in pulling the QB is the HC. I suppose Kirk could always ASK to come out of the game.

This franchise has failed miserably in its handling of the QB position for years.

No argument there.

The press's role is not to flatter and ask softball questions. An informed, critical reporter SHOULD ask these kinds of questions. It isn't a "gotcha" question.

Sure it is. That was not an informed, critical question. Unless the question was "how come 75% of NFL teams don't have a proven, reliable backup QB on the roster?"

It is absolutely absurd that we don't have a second option to go at QB.

Meh. We have an unproven option, not "no" option. And many teams have unproven options. But if you want me to agree that our QB situation kind of sucks, I'm there.

Let me ask you this: if three interceptions in a half of football isn't enough for you or Zimmer to consider putting your backup QB in, what number would be? Would you do it at 5 interceptions? 6? 10? Or are there literally no circumstances under which you would pull him?

Well it's kind of a silly question, but sure, Mannion would get in should Kirk look like he's throwing the game. Kirk is not playing well right now, and I'm right with you in giving him blame for even the tipped pass INT's. And honestly I do not believe he's going to get any better playing for this staff. But due to the high contracts most starting QB's are getting paid nowadays, having an Andy Dalton or Nick Foles is an absolute luxury for teams. So no, three INT's with two tipped? probably does not call for benching the starting QB in my book. Four INT's directly into DB's hands, I'd pull Cousins and put you in.

I mean, who did you want us to get as the proven, reliable backup QB, and what contract did you want to pay them? And when would you play them?

Getting a "franchise" QB is a difficult endeavor, otherwise there would be more than 10 in the league at any point in time. Have we (Rick) failed to get one in the last dozen years? Yep. And that is a damning mark indeed.

And do me a favor - you are making 7 points in your posts, all of them good, but split them out so I don't have to copy and paste the quotation parts!

[psjordan]

You are making some assumptions about the talent that is or isn't being developed that you don't really have evidence to be true. We do know that Zimmer developed a top 2 defense in 2017, and top 5 in 2016 and 2018 and top 10 in 2019. We don't know if another coach could have done better with that talent. Hunter, Kendricks, Smith, Harris, Rhodes in 2017 are all elite/borderline elite players that Zimmer developed. Could another coach have done better? Possibly, but I doubt there are many that could have if they do exist.

Well, that's the danger of message board posting, opinions tend to come out black and white when grey was intended.

Sure, Zim and staff have had success with players. Otherwise I don't think he'd be in the NFL. My point surrounds the fact that in order to be something better than 1-5 in the year 2020, our staff would have had to develop players on a much wider basis than they have.

And my assumptions are based on statistical probability, that's all. Like four players drafted rd 1-2, same position, all thought highly of by virtually all evaluators, none of which panned out long term. I suppose I could list all the OL drafted in the last 8 years and make the same analysis. It's not like I'm grasping at straws here. And I don't simply look at how they do once we cut them, because as I mentioned prior, 4-5 years with a bad staff can ruin a player. Or make it difficult to improve quickly.

Our woeful playoff record under Zim is another statistic that, to me, indicates he and his staff are not going to be the ones to get us consistently better, long term. Zim and staff are good enough for the occasional individual great success on the player and game level, but it takes a lot more than that to be highly successful long term.

And they've had enough time for me to see what their version of "long term" entails. And I'd prefer they do their thing elsewhere.

[StpViking]

I was thinking this whole season about the Wilfs luring Bill Belichick away from the Patriots. I think that is the one thing Belichick has not done in his coaching career, bring a Championship to a cursed franchise like the Vikings. But I see Belichick without Brady and I understand now that coaches are not the field general. You can come up with the greatest plan, but if you don't have the people to execute it, it means nothing.

The NFL has shown that an Elite QB is more important to winning the Superbowl than a Hall of Fame Coach. If people on this board really feel that Trevor Lawrence can live up to the hype and win that Superbowl. Then it's time the franchise and fans do everything possible to make that happen.

[VikingLord]

Yeah, I don't see it. This team is currently devoid of talent while being up against the cap. That is the biggest problem we are facing this year and going forward outside of the QB going full Winston mode on the interceptions. We have nice pieces at WR, RB, MLB and safety. The LT, RT and RDE are solid starters, but the rest of this squad would be backups on a SB contending team.

It is not possible for team hard up against the cap to be devoid of talent. There is plenty of talent on the team and, I would argue, there has been plenty of talent on this team for the duration of Spielman's time here.

Spielman may not be the most astute GM in the NFL, but he's not a blind monkey throwing darts at a wall.

In my view what has held Spielman back as a GM is that he takes big risks, many of which seem to be based on hope rather than shrewd calculation. He swings for the fences and while he hits some monster home runs that make the highlight reels, his on base percentage sucks. The teams he's built reflect this. They either hit or miss, and this season so far is turning out to be perhaps his biggest miss yet.

[vikeinmontana]

Four INT's directly into DB's hands, I'd pull Cousins and put you in.

This line made me laugh. Comedy might be our only cure to this season.

[FredJohnson22]

"I wouldn't want to belong to a club that would have me as a member." - Groucho Marx (and every decent GM candidate)

[StumpHunter]

Yeah, I don't see it. This team is currently devoid of talent while being up against the cap. That is the biggest problem we are facing this year and going forward outside of the QB going full Winston mode on the interceptions. We have nice pieces at WR, RB, MLB and safety. The LT, RT and RDE are solid starters, but the rest of this squad would be backups on a SB contending team.

It is not possible for team hard up against the cap to be devoid of talent. There is plenty of talent on the team and, I would argue, there has been plenty of talent on this team for the duration of Spielman's time here.

Spielman may not be the most astute GM in the NFL, but he's not a blind monkey throwing darts at a wall.

In my view what has held Spielman back as a GM is that he takes big risks, many of which seem to be based on hope rather than shrewd calculation. He swings for the fences and while he hits some monster home runs that make the highlight reels, his on base percentage sucks. The teams he's built reflect this. They either hit or miss, and this season so far is turning out to be perhaps his biggest miss yet.

I see what you are saying, and the devoid was a bit of hyperbole. There is some talent, just not close to being enough.

2021 negative cap space available:
Saints
Eagles
Falcons
Steelers
Chiefs
Rams
Texans
Vikings
Raiders

Underlined are 4 teams that have 1 win apiece. This terrible cap management, more than poor drafting, is a sign of a bad GM imo.

Even if the Vikings cut Reiff, Barr, Rudy, and Stephen they are 12 million under the cap(after signing their rookies) with no starting LT, SAM, 3 tech or safety next season.

That isn't the HC's coaches fault, that is on the GM.