Fire everyone and start all over please

[S197]

The list of talent is also a moving goalpost. Pretty sure Mike Hughes made the talent list until he didn’t. And Samia was on the Lynch/potential list, until he wasn’t. Same with Watts and Hercules.

Rick always “wins” the draft on paper with his 10-15 picks. But when it comes to fielding a team, it’s always the same issues year after year.

I mean in all fairness, Hercules wasn’t a pick he was undrafted. Watts was a 6th round pick. Samia a 4th rounder and so on. Hitting on those guys is a luxury because as you get deeper in the draft your hit % drastically decreases. Which is why I like Spielmans strategy of making a lot of late round picks. I mean Samia was simply a bad pick clearly. But hitting on watts or an undrafted free agent like Hercules is 100% a luxury if anything.

Hughes simply didn’t pan out. I mean he was a highly ranked corner just didn’t pan out.

What I mean by these examples is there’s always these “Mr Mankato” type guys that are hyped up and pointed to as part of Rick’s roster building prowess until they turn back into pumpkins and then are forgotten. Lynch is likely just the next in line.

3rd and 4th round guys aren’t throwaway picks, you need to find contributors there. Elflein, Beavers, Clemmings, and Samia are a lot of misses. Bradbury is looking like another miss (at least not worth a 1st). Jalyn Holmes was almost a 3rd round pick (2nd overall in the 4th). Jaleel Johnson is another 4th. Crichton was a high 3rd rounder as well.

If you look at 2016, 2017, and 2018 they really weren’t very good drafts. You have roughly one impact player per year. Even 2019, it’s not looking very good if Bradbury doesn’t get in gear. Irv Smith hasn’t done anything to earn that 2nd round pick.

It’s a lot of holding on to that 2015 draft. Rick has certainly found some gems (Ant Harris, Thielen, etc), some really great mid-round homers (Hunter, Griffen, Diggs etc) but he still has the same blind spots today as he did 10 years ago. And it’s been a while since he’s been able to replicate his 2015 draft despite a massive number of picks he insists on every year.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The talent was pretty easy to spot?? Come on Jim. That’s not even a fair statement. Laquon Treadwell was the best WR in college football and he didn’t pan out. I would say talent wise, that was easy to spot but it didn’t work out. Matt Kalil was hands down the best tackle in college football, that didn’t pan out. That’s why players are called busts. Because they have a lot of talent and it never translates to the nfl. No pick is a sure thing. Maybe talent could be “easy to spot” but it means nothing until they show that talent in the nfl. Then you have Danielle hunter who showed very little talent in the nfl but is arguably one of the best, if not the best DE in the league when you look at all phases of his game.

Criticize Spielman all you want, but to shy away from giving him credit for the talent he brought in because you think it was “easy to spot” is a pretty poor attempt at trying to say he’s the problem.

He has had some nice picks, and some not so nice ones. At the end of the day the rosters he has put on the field have never been good enough to win it all, and the current roster seems to be going downhill fast. How long does the guy need?

But to be honest stump, every GM has some not so nice picks. I just feel like spielmans a better GM than a good 80% of the league. Again, the talent we’ve had on this team since he took over, has been very solid. Talent wise, I would say we’ve had one of the better rosters year after year for quite some time. Analysts are always saying it. Which leads me to believe that it’s more the scheme and coaching than it is spielman. I still think this years draft was one of his best yet as good as 2015 was. And the way he worked the draft board to gain two more picks next year was impressive. I mean this Jefferson pick looks like a home run. I still like both gladney and dantzlers potential. Hell even Harrison hand. Sometimes it’s tough because Zim just fails to ever play these guys. Instead he plays Samia, Bisi, hill, Johnson/Stephen, etc. But from a potential standpoint and what we already have coming next year draft pick wise, I think this team is certainly reloading and I’d like to foresee Spielman continue to revamp this roster

[Mothman]

The talent was pretty easy to spot?? Come on Jim. That’s not even a fair statement. Laquon Treadwell was the best WR in college football and he didn’t pan out. I would say talent wise, that was easy to spot but it didn’t work out. Matt Kalil was hands down the best tackle in college football, that didn’t pan out. That’s why players are called busts. Because they have a lot of talent and it never translates to the nfl. No pick is a sure thing. Maybe talent could be “easy to spot” but it means nothing until they show that talent in the nfl.

None of that is exactly helping your case for Spielman.

Criticize Spielman all you want, but to shy away from giving him credit for the talent he brought in because you think it was “easy to spot” is a pretty poor attempt at trying to say he’s the problem.

It would be if that's what I was saying. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for the good picks he's made. I'm just saying most of those players weren't exactly hidden gems. Spielman's not special. Any solid GM with a good scouting department should be able to have a similar hit rate in the early rounds of the draft.

[Mothman]

They can still easily fire Spielman and Zimmer and I had no real qualms with them extending those two even though I think Rick has destroyed this franchise. It is not a good thing to have your GM and HC attempting to build a team to save their jobs in the NFL. You always want your GM and HC looking to win the upcoming season, but not at the expense of future years, and that is what might have happened if Rick and Zimmer were in a make or break year.

I wasn't suggesting that Zimmer and Spielman should have been retained for a "make or break" year. I think they should have been replaced.

The inexcusable extension was Cousins, and not just because I think he was a bad signing from the start. There is no realistic way out of that contract and now any HC you bring in will be saddled with a guy he probably will not want starting for him.

Agreed and that's a problem they could (and should) have avoided by hiring a new GM and HC last offseason.

[Pondering Her Percy]

The talent was pretty easy to spot?? Come on Jim. That’s not even a fair statement. Laquon Treadwell was the best WR in college football and he didn’t pan out. I would say talent wise, that was easy to spot but it didn’t work out. Matt Kalil was hands down the best tackle in college football, that didn’t pan out. That’s why players are called busts. Because they have a lot of talent and it never translates to the nfl. No pick is a sure thing. Maybe talent could be “easy to spot” but it means nothing until they show that talent in the nfl.

None of that is exactly helping your case for Spielman.

Criticize Spielman all you want, but to shy away from giving him credit for the talent he brought in because you think it was “easy to spot” is a pretty poor attempt at trying to say he’s the problem.

It would be if that's what I was saying. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve credit for the good picks he's made. I'm just saying most of those players weren't exactly hidden gems. Spielman's not special. Any solid GM with a good scouting department should be able to have a similar hit rate in the early rounds of the draft.

I mean I’ve always said that I think Matt Kalil was Matt Kalils own problem. But if he’s a solid GM with a good scouting department, why fire that? If I had to rank Spielman as a GM, I’d put him anywhere from probably 6-10 out of 32. In turn, the window of finding a better GM than that is much more difficult because there isn’t a ton of wiggle room there. I’ve just seen too many dysfunctional clueless GMs in this league that take over and run a team into the ground and destroy a teams future. Why do you think the jets, dolphins, redskins, browns, etc have been bad for so long? Hell look at what O’Brien did to Houston’s future.

This team has plenty enough talent and plenty of upcoming picks, I’d rather keep Spielman and let him continue to build the roster than to hand it over to someone that could very well ruin it because these players “aren’t their guys”

[psjordan]

TL/DR: Fire the coaches, keep GM and staff - for now.

IMO, where you fall on the "is it Zimmer, Spielman - or are both equally culpable?" scale depends on whether you think the coach or "what the player is before he gets to the team" is the major factor in whether the players, and thus the team, is successful.

As someone who has coached from peewee to college, and over many years, I can comfortably state my opinion that it's the coaching staff that BY FAR makes the biggest difference when players are moving up a level. Sure, every now and then there are players that seamlessly make the transition up to the next level no matter what the coaches do. Those players are simply natural talents that will be a success under almost any conditions.

But for the vast majority of players - to make it simple (but wholly inaccurate) I'll say any draft picks beyond #20-25 or so - they need great coaching to be highly successful at the next level.

My experience says that coaching is 60-80% of the equation, especially when helping players move up a level.

It's just baffling to me that a lot of posters here feel that literally EVERY ONE of the OL that we have drafted say since 2010 were destined to be crappy-to-average in the NFL. I mean, statistically, even if all of the metrics we use to draft OL were rotten to the core, we still would end up with one player in 10 years that would be solidly above average (is O'Neill above average? I don't know, but he's probably the best of the lot). And I find it very strange that fans think a professional staff doesn't learn and adjust from any mistakes they make in the draft. Yes, even if you don't like Rick, my guess is that he's not a complete buffoon that is no better than any of us at drafting OL talent. Has there ever been anything said or written by anyone even remotely qualified stating that Spielman's drafting for the Vikings is pure out-and-out folly at the OL position, like a lot of posters here claim? He is generally thought of as a decent GM in NFL circles to the best of my knowledge.

And I would guess that "positional priority" during a draft is decided by more than just Rick. So whether we take DB's early in the first and then OL's in the fourth is probably not simply a function of what Rick thinks. IMO he has whiffed badly at the QB position over the years, so in the big scheme it would not kill me to see him canned same time as Zim. But otherwise I don't think our incoming talent level was that poor. I do feel however that Zim and staff have screwed up a lot of talented players.

However if I am the Wilfs and do not want to start everything over from scratch, I fire Zimmer and staff as soon as I feel comfortable doing it. I leave Rick and staff in place until we see what the new coaching staff can do with the 2019 and 2020 draft class. If the new coaches can't make anything of the last 20 draft picks before they got here, then fire Rick and the front office staff.

That would be my approach. Zimmer's a great guy, but at this point not a good HC. I've run into this plenty over the years and I've seen a lot of head coaches ruin a lot of teams. Sorry Zim, but your time has come and gone. Just PLEASE do not win 6 meaningless games this year.

[StumpHunter]

They can still easily fire Spielman and Zimmer and I had no real qualms with them extending those two even though I think Rick has destroyed this franchise. It is not a good thing to have your GM and HC attempting to build a team to save their jobs in the NFL. You always want your GM and HC looking to win the upcoming season, but not at the expense of future years, and that is what might have happened if Rick and Zimmer were in a make or break year.

I wasn't suggesting that Zimmer and Spielman should have been retained for a "make or break" year. I think they should have been replaced.

The inexcusable extension was Cousins, and not just because I think he was a bad signing from the start. There is no realistic way out of that contract and now any HC you bring in will be saddled with a guy he probably will not want starting for him.

Agreed and that's a problem they could (and should) have avoided by hiring a new GM and HC last offseason.

Extend or fire them was the choice and the Wilfs chose the former. Hopefully they don't stick to their guns this off season since we need a change big time.

[makila]

It's just baffling to me that a lot of posters here feel that literally EVERY ONE of the OL that we have drafted say since 2010 were destined to be crappy-to-average in the NFL. I mean, statistically, even if all of the metrics we use to draft OL were rotten to the core, we still would end up with one player in 10 years that would be solidly above average (is O'Neill above average? I don't know, but he's probably the best of the lot). And I find it very strange that fans think a professional staff doesn't learn and adjust from any mistakes they make in the draft. Yes, even if you don't like Rick, my guess is that he's not a complete buffoon that is no better than any of us at drafting OL talent. Has there ever been anything said or written by anyone even remotely qualified stating that Spielman's drafting for the Vikings is pure out-and-out folly at the OL position, like a lot of posters here claim? He is generally thought of as a decent GM in NFL circles to the best of my knowledge.

Good read, thanks for the post.

Do you think it's a matter of them being developed with proper coaching then? If we're drafting the right people and they aren't succeeding then we aren't developing them, no?

That is still Spielman's responsibility imo. He isn't just personal/draft. I realize the GM isn't hiring all the positional coaches, etc, the HC is. It's his HC though.There sure seems to be a patch of years where none of the drafted offensive lineman panned out and helped the team. Drafted Vikings O-Line since 2006 (Rick's first season with team):

2006
2nd - 19 (51) - OT Ryan Cook

2007
none

2008
6th - 21 (187) - C John Sullivan

2009
2nd - 22 (54) - OT Phil Loadholt

2010
5th - 30 (161) - G Chris DeGeare

2011
6th - 3 (168) - OT DeMarcus Love
6th - 7 (172) - C Brandon Fusco

2012
1st - 4 (4) - OT Matt Kalil

2013
6th - 28 (196) - G Jeff Baca
7th - 8 (214) - G Travis Bond

2014
5th - 5 (145) - G David Yankey

2015
4th - 11 (110) - OT TJ Clemmings
6th - 9 (185) - OT Tyrus Thompson
7th - 11 (228) - OT Austin Shepherd

2016
4th - 23 (121) - G Willie Beavers

2017
3rd - 6 (70) - C Pat Elflein
5th - 37 (180) - G Danny Isidora

2018
2nd - 30 (62) - OT Brian O'Neill
6th - 39 (213) - G Colby Gossett

2019
1st - 18 (18) - C Garrett Bradbury
4th - 12 (114) - G Dru Samia
6th - 21 (193) - OT Olisaemeka Udoh
7th - 36 (250) - LS Austin Cutting

2020
2nd - 26 (58) - OT Ezra Cleveland
6th - 24 (203) - OT Blake Brandel
7th - 39 (253) - G Kyle Hinton

[StumpHunter]

He has had some nice picks, and some not so nice ones. At the end of the day the rosters he has put on the field have never been good enough to win it all, and the current roster seems to be going downhill fast. How long does the guy need?

But to be honest stump, every GM has some not so nice picks. I just feel like spielmans a better GM than a good 80% of the league. Again, the talent we’ve had on this team since he took over, has been very solid. Talent wise, I would say we’ve had one of the better rosters year after year for quite some time. Analysts are always saying it. Which leads me to believe that it’s more the scheme and coaching than it is spielman. I still think this years draft was one of his best yet as good as 2015 was. And the way he worked the draft board to gain two more picks next year was impressive. I mean this Jefferson pick looks like a home run. I still like both gladney and dantzlers potential. Hell even Harrison hand. Sometimes it’s tough because Zim just fails to ever play these guys. Instead he plays Samia, Bisi, hill, Johnson/Stephen, etc. But from a potential standpoint and what we already have coming next year draft pick wise, I think this team is certainly reloading and I’d like to foresee Spielman continue to revamp this roster

They do all have misses, but overall the great GMs hits end up building championship caliber teams, something Rick has never done. Rick, like Zimmer is just an okay GM. The Vikings could do worse, but they could also do better. They need better to win it all so to me the answer is pretty simple.


Lynch, Wonnum and Cleveland are not going to make this team significantly better. I would like them getting more reps over guys who have no future on the team, but that won't benefit us this year like you are implying. Heck, Cleveland started today and it was the second worst showing by the offense. He wasn't the missing piece, neither are two late round draft picks.

[YikesVikes]

We conflate knowing a player's name to them having talent. That's why we are often taken aback when they suck.

[FredJohnson22]

Might as well let the GM/HC/QB go down with the ship. No one worth a darn will want to come here with the QB/o-line situation. If Spiel and Zim are fired (now or season's end), it will not make a difference. The soonest this team will have a winning season again is 2025 - about 2 years after Cousins is gone. Just saying it like I see it.

[Crax]

For those that want to keep Spielman for the job he's done drafting, don't forget he's in charge of the whole thing and doing pretty good at one thing doesn't make up for the rest.

He hasn't done a good job signing free agents or making trades..
Who is the best free agent Spielman has brought in? Ignoring Cousins here to not go down that road, would you say it's Linval Joseph? Others include Terrance Newman, Captain Munnerlyn and guys like Bradford, Keenum. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone, but the good ones I can think of were pre-spielman. I realize Minnesota may not be an attractive destination, but we've made some mediocre FA signings on the O-Line, but nothing to write home about. I'm not talking undrafted FA either, that's back to the draft. We're always looking for QBs and never developing them either. We're so quick to trade our upper picks, we miss on guys like other late QBs that have potential to develop.

He hasn't done a good job with coaches.
Even if you don't want to count Frazier, he was part of it.

[FredJohnson22]

For those that want to keep Spielman for the job he's done drafting, don't forget he's in charge of the whole thing and doing pretty good at one thing doesn't make up for the rest.

He hasn't done a good job signing free agents or making trades..
Who is the best free agent Spielman has brought in? Ignoring Cousins here to not go down that road, would you say it's Linval Joseph? Others include Terrance Newman, Captain Munnerlyn and guys like Bradford, Keenum. I realize Minnesota may not be an attractive destination, but we've made some mediocre FA signings on the O-Line, but nothing to write home about. I'm not talking undrafted FA either, that's back to the draft.

He hasn't done a good job with coaches.
Even if you don't want to count Frazier, he was part of it.

Who will come here to replace them?

[kidfozzy.]

Most of y’all are like “Fire Spielman, Fire Spielman!”

Do any of you guys know any viable GM candidates? I’m lazy to Google.

[Crax]

Most of y’all are like “Fire Spielman, Fire Spielman!”

Do any of you guys know any viable GM candidates? I’m lazy to Google.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2019/12/26/nfl-f ... t-fitterer

Borgonzi seems to be the hot choice as being part of the Chiefs.