49ers Post Game

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'm not saying Keenum has a high likelihood of winning a Superbowl...He's just a journeyman and a guy who isn't likely to even get you to the playoffs on a given year...but he has the character and demeanor needed for big moments and Kirk doesn't.

In what sense? Because he took a shot with no time to go and completed the miracle pass? At least Cousins game vs. NO was impressive. Keenum was part of the problem vs. NO and helped pis# that lead away and he was downright beat if the miracle didnt happen. But when you look at Kirks game vs. NO he was answering back right and left, didnt turn the ball over and went off in OT. That was the biggest moment in Kirk's career to date going in as a huge underdog on the road against a loaded team in the playoffs and he tore it up. Keenum's big moment quickly disappeared because of his carelessness with the ball. No less, we were at home, a better team that year than in 2019 and facing a worse NO team than we faced this year.

I remember guys on here saying Kirk would've never made Keenums throw to Diggs. Why wouldnt he? There was 10 seconds left in the game? You're giving credit to Keenum in "big moments" when he really did what in big moments? Keenum beat 2 winning teams that year (Rams and Falcons). Our defense held the Rams to 7 points and the Falcons to 9. They were both playoff teams! We had the #1 total defense in the NFL, #2 vs. the pass and #2 vs. the run. THAT's how good our defense was. Nothing remotely close to what Cousins had this year. Are you going to tell me Cousins wouldnt have beat the Rams and Falcons with that defense? I sure hope not. But then we land a first round bye and get a home game vs. the Saints where he played a decent half of football and then went an entire half without scoring a TD and threw an INT in our own end that resulted in a TD. But we're saying Keenum has the demeanor for big moments? Because of the miracle or a couple nice completions to Jarius Wright and Thielen? Did Kirk not do that in OT on the ROAD? Completed a key 3rd down to Diggs, lays a deep ball on Thielens lap, throws a TD to Rudy on 3rd and goal.

Bottom line is, I dont buy the Keenum is good in big moments and Kirk isnt garbage. Kirk didnt need luck to beat the Saints, he flat out beat them on the road. Keenum was part of the reason we nearly lost that playoff game against the Saints and somehow redeemed himself with a miracle play.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

Keenum does have deficiencies, and the type that are obvious to casual fans...Kirk also has deficiencies, the type that aren't obvious to casual fans. If my goal is to get the best regular season record, I'm going with Kirk. If the goal is to win a superbowl, I'd tend toward Keenum.

I'm not saying Keenum has a high likelihood of winning a Superbowl...He's just a journeyman and a guy who isn't likely to even get you to the playoffs on a given year...but he has the character and demeanor needed for big moments and Kirk doesn't.

I have my reservations about Cousins too, but what were you saying after the NO game then? Because that was the playoffs and Kirk clearly was instrumental in that win. I think it's way too convenient to say that he doesn't have what it takes after a game like SF (even though I catch myself thinking that way too sometimes). He was really awful in the SF game, and not only due to his Oline, and when things go wrong for him early, it's almost a miracle to see him pull out if it it seems. But, you can't simply disregard the NO game either. There's more to it, I think.

After the NO game, I was saying that I hope this was a turn-around type game for him....that it would become a launching pad for more confidence in high pressure games I was happy to see those throws he made in OT. They were great throws in a big time situation. BUT, as much as some fans were saying he had a great game, I was saying that I didn't think he did. If you go back and scrutinize his performance, he had many plays exactly like linked above. WIde open receivers that he didn't throw to and some awful passes. He made us forget those or not care about them by winning the game in OT, but they still happened.

In the great debate, Keenum was given little credit for the "MIracle" throw because it "was luck", but my argument has always been that at least he threw it. I didn't think that in that same situation that Cousins would have. I believe the above links support that.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

I want to say again how much I hoped the NO win would turn things around for Kirk. He has so much talent and a lot of the physical tools needed to be a great QB. The only only think that gets in Kirk's way many times is Kirk.

Someone had posted a stat about Kirk being among the leaders in completions downfield this year. To be honest, that blew my mind because I would NEVER have guessed that. Where can I go to find that stat. I have to see it with my own eyes.

[fiestavike]

I'm not saying Keenum has a high likelihood of winning a Superbowl...He's just a journeyman and a guy who isn't likely to even get you to the playoffs on a given year...but he has the character and demeanor needed for big moments and Kirk doesn't.

In what sense? Because he took a shot with no time to go and completed the miracle pass? At least Cousins game vs. NO was impressive. Keenum was part of the problem vs. NO and helped pis# that lead away and he was downright beat if the miracle didnt happen. But when you look at Kirks game vs. NO he was answering back right and left, didnt turn the ball over and went off in OT. That was the biggest moment in Kirk's career to date going in as a huge underdog on the road against a loaded team in the playoffs and he tore it up. Keenum's big moment quickly disappeared because of his carelessness with the ball. No less, we were at home, a better team that year than in 2019 and facing a worse NO team than we faced this year.

I remember guys on here saying Kirk would've never made Keenums throw to Diggs. Why wouldnt he? There was 10 seconds left in the game? You're giving credit to Keenum in "big moments" when he really did what in big moments? Keenum beat 2 winning teams that year (Rams and Falcons). Our defense held the Rams to 7 points and the Falcons to 9. They were both playoff teams! We had the #1 total defense in the NFL, #2 vs. the pass and #2 vs. the run. THAT's how good our defense was. Nothing remotely close to what Cousins had this year. Are you going to tell me Cousins wouldnt have beat the Rams and Falcons with that defense? I sure hope not. But then we land a first round bye and get a home game vs. the Saints where he played a decent half of football and then went an entire half without scoring a TD and threw an INT in our own end that resulted in a TD. But we're saying Keenum has the demeanor for big moments? Because of the miracle or a couple nice completions to Jarius Wright and Thielen? Did Kirk not do that in OT on the ROAD? Completed a key 3rd down to Diggs, lays a deep ball on Thielens lap, throws a TD to Rudy on 3rd and goal.

Bottom line is, I dont buy the Keenum is good in big moments and Kirk isnt garbage. Kirk didnt need luck to beat the Saints, he flat out beat them on the road. Keenum was part of the reason we nearly lost that playoff game against the Saints and somehow redeemed himself with a miracle play.

[Dames]

After the NO game, I was saying that I hope this was a turn-around type game for him....that it would become a launching pad for more confidence in high pressure games I was happy to see those throws he made in OT. They were great throws in a big time situation. BUT, as much as some fans were saying he had a great game, I was saying that I didn't think he did. If you go back and scrutinize his performance, he had many plays exactly like linked above. WIde open receivers that he didn't throw to and some awful passes. He made us forget those or not care about them by winning the game in OT, but they still happened.

In the great debate, Keenum was given little credit for the "MIracle" throw because it "was luck", but my argument has always been that at least he threw it. I didn't think that in that same situation that Cousins would have. I believe the above links support that.

I think we were all hoping for that. He seems to have those types of games every year. For example, in 2017 vs GB (the stupid tie game). He made a big-time throw to Thielen in that game to tie it at the end. That was what people call a Keenum type throw. But, he also had horrible games later in the year (i.e. the final vs the Bears). It's mind boggling. Just when we think he's turned the corner and is ready to just let it fly...Hyde shows up. QBs having off games is one thing, but it really appears he just goes into a shell sometimes, and is a different person.

[StumpHunter]

I want to say again how much I hoped the NO win would turn things around for Kirk. He has so much talent and a lot of the physical tools needed to be a great QB. The only only think that gets in Kirk's way many times is Kirk.

Someone had posted a stat about Kirk being among the leaders in completions downfield this year. To be honest, that blew my mind because I would NEVER have guessed that. Where can I go to find that stat. I have to see it with my own eyes.

It is a bit misleading. He threw for a high completion but it wasn't like he was throwing it deep a lot. In multiple games this season he did not complete more than 3 passes over 10 yards.

The Second GB, Seattle, Dallas and Chicago. That is 3 of his 5 losses. Dallas, the lone win, is a team that you want to throw short passes against to beat them. He had 4 against GB in our first loss, 5 if you include the interception. 4 against SF.



Of the losses, only against KC did he have a decent amount of completions over 10 yards, 7 over 10, but 0 over 20. He also struggled with short passes more than any other game in that one.

[CharVike]

For the players the only goal is to win a Super Bowl. Come on that's a pipe dream. How about the money in their pocket? They don't do it for that. Money is why they do it. If an NFL job paid 9 bucks an hour nobody would do it or want it. The Super Bowl wouldn't men a thing if they lived on the street. Baseball went through the same thing which is why I no longer watch it. When they struck the world series the fan outcry was what about the World Series. The players said they don't care about that BS. We want more money. Is that so hard to see? It's about the coin. It's entertainment for the avg joe blow. It's no more than that. Our biggest problem is the defense isn't good enough. Zim has yet to create a D that's good enough. 2017 D was the best in the NFL which was BS. We shut out the Pack. Why? No QB. If we shut them out twice this year we would be golden. Our D can't hold up to Rodgers. That's the difference. We won't find a QB in Rodgers class this off season. I don't care if we picked that Burrow kid who will go No 1. He's not in his class. The guy was projected to be a 2 or 3 round pick before the season and I thought great he's ours. He still has that same skill set. His "team" won but it;'s still the same skill set. He didn't start running faster, or throwing a bomb deeper. The team threw him in the spot light and he delivered. But his skill set is not close to Rodgers. We need to build a dominate D. Something very close to the 49ers or old Raven team ect..... Our D isn't close to that right now. That's our biggest problem. Most feel it's Cousins. Look at some of the bum starters in the NFL. Look at our division. Tribisky blows. The guy for the Lions blows because he can't win. I could go on by why.

It's hard to follow your response because you cover a lot of ground, but there are a few things to say.

Money is why a lot of people do something, but its rarely the only reason they do it. Personal achievement within a profession or a sport is also important. Legacy is important. Maybe not equally to everyone, but I would guess few players are in it solely for the monetary rewards, especially playing a sport where severe and long-lasting injury is possible if not likely even.

You conflate the actions of the player's unions with the individual players as well when you mention the player strike that cost the World Series. When considering things like that, you have to acknowledge that the overall interests of larger groups come into play in such things and it's not just the players who caused that. The owners also dug in their heels. One could look at it like the two groups (owners and players) sacrificed a world series in pursuit of a better long term deal that would ensure many future world series. This happens in other venues too, most notably Olympic boycotts and such. It doesn't alter the individual or team motivations or goals, however.

My basic point in responding to your first claim is that if the team overall is excused for this reason or that, then nothing substantial is likely to change heading into next season, and for those of us who are tired of the status quo with this team, for those of us who would prefer it is the Vikings who are hosting playoff games and who are favored to win and not teams like the Packers and 49ers, for those of us who think fundamental changes are necessary to position the team to be legitimate Superbowl contenders in the future, excuses can't cut it anymore. Not for the team overall, nor for individual players and coaches who consistently underperform, especially in key situations.

The Wilfs ultimately bear responsibility for deciding on what level of change will happen. They have to decide if they're getting what they're paying for and if the results are what they should reasonably expect given that investment.

I post this again. The Wilfs are Giant fans. We are a business and an investment. Would he like us to win? Sure. But he would much rather have his investment work out. So far he has done great with the new stadium, a competitive team ect..... He even lets the team spend to the CAP. We are in a tough spot. If we were in the AFC east it would be easy. Our problem is winning the division. For us to do that Speilman needs to get a QB that is better than Rodgers. I don't know who that is. Perhaps you do and can help me. I know it's not in this draft so that option is out. What's next? Who's available. We could get 2 time Super Bowl winner Elli Manning who most think blows. But he's a winner. If we offer a few 1st round picks he is ours. Will that winner do it? I doubt it. We might miss the playoffs. So again were is this guy???? Nobody gives an answer and they all blame Speilman. My answer is there isn't one available at this point in time. Not this Tau from the draft. He's not close to a Rodgers level. So he can't help us. I don't think he's at Cousins level.I wanted Drew Lock last year but right now he sucks. Maybe later he'll get better maybe not. Could be worse than Cousins. He's no Rodgers that's for sure.
To me the next path is to build a defense. Something even with the 49ers. That won't happen this off season. It could but it's highly unlikely. The draft won't help. Not many players start right off the bat and perform outstanding. Even a guy like our Doleman struggled for a few years. Bradberry started and was pushed around. Is there any difference maker in FA? I doubt it and if there is get ready to overpay to the extreme. Some feel we can get 4 starters from the draft. That won't happen. It's impossible matter of fact. If we get two it will take a few years before they hit their peak.
Bottom line I don't have an answer. The players we need like a top flight QB won't be there. The D will take a few years I think. I know I didn't answer anything. Like Speilman I'm also lost to construct a true contender right now. Maybe Rodgers will go down again next year and SF will go in the tank. That would help us the most and quickly.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

We could get 2 time Super Bowl winner Elli Manning who most think blows. But he's a winner. If we offer a few 1st round picks he is ours.

Not only would a "few 1st round picks" be completely absurd for Manning, but he's a free agent. If you want him, pretty much just have to make an offer. I'll be surprised if he gets any.

[Pondering Her Percy]

We could get 2 time Super Bowl winner Elli Manning who most think blows. But he's a winner. If we offer a few 1st round picks he is ours.

Not only would a "few 1st round picks" be completely absurd for Manning, but he's a free agent. If you want him, pretty much just have to make an offer. I'll be surprised if he gets any.

Dude wait...what?? Did he just really want to offer the giants a few first round picks for Eli Manning? A guy that is probably going to retire, can hardly move and is so far past his prime its not even funny?

Oh the offseason....

[YikesVikes]

Keenum does have deficiencies, and the type that are obvious to casual fans...Kirk also has deficiencies, the type that aren't obvious to casual fans. If my goal is to get the best regular season record, I'm going with Kirk. If the goal is to win a superbowl, I'd tend toward Keenum.

I'm not saying Keenum has a high likelihood of winning a Superbowl...He's just a journeyman and a guy who isn't likely to even get you to the playoffs on a given year...but he has the character and demeanor needed for big moments and Kirk doesn't.

I have my reservations about Cousins too, but what were you saying after the NO game then? Because that was the playoffs and Kirk clearly was instrumental in that win. I think it's way too convenient to say that he doesn't have what it takes after a game like SF (even though I catch myself thinking that way too sometimes). He was really awful in the SF game, and not only due to his Oline, and when things go wrong for him early, it's almost a miracle to see him pull out if it it seems. But, you can't simply disregard the NO game either. There's more to it, I think.

He was ok in the NO game. The joy of winning that game makes it look bigger but her was ok. Not a high completion percentage. He played well in OT but I want a QB that wins that game without OT.

[J. Kapp 11]

I want to say again how much I hoped the NO win would turn things around for Kirk. He has so much talent and a lot of the physical tools needed to be a great QB. The only only think that gets in Kirk's way many times is Kirk.

Someone had posted a stat about Kirk being among the leaders in completions downfield this year. To be honest, that blew my mind because I would NEVER have guessed that. Where can I go to find that stat. I have to see it with my own eyes.

I don't remember where, but I've seen that stat multiple times. I'm pretty sure it's true.

Here's the thing. That stat doesn't take into account how many times Kirk didn't throw the ball to guys who were open downfield. Not just bombs, but in that intermediate 15-20 yard range. The San Francisco game is a great example. Sage Rosenfels broke it down on Twitter and showed at least 5 times where Kirk had open receivers, especially on deep crossing routes, which are right in front of him, and checked it down instead. On all of these instances, he had good enough protection to get the ball where it needed to go. In fact, he usually threw the check down at the same point or even after when he would have needed to throw the deeper pass.

The problem is that Kirk doesn't feel pressure. He sees it.

When the other team is getting pressure often, as SF was on Saturday, Kirk panics a little and goes from first read (deep) to fourth read (checkdown) in about a nanosecond. Essentially, he's hyper-sensitive to the rush and bails to the check down, skipping over other reads deeper downfield. This isn't the case all the time, but it definitely was true against certain teams, such as the Bears, the second Packer game, and the SF game.

Look, I like Kirk Cousins. He works hard, he prepares like nobody else, and he's a stand-up guy. I think he's got all the tools to be a great QB. But he's skittish with the rush. When he tries to escape pressure, his eyes come away from downfield. Guys like Mahomes and Rodgers escape pressure and never really look where they're going. Cousins looks where he wants to escape and loses track of his receivers.

Can he correct it? I don't know. Seems like it would be hard.

[StumpHunter]

I'm not saying Keenum has a high likelihood of winning a Superbowl...He's just a journeyman and a guy who isn't likely to even get you to the playoffs on a given year...but he has the character and demeanor needed for big moments and Kirk doesn't.

In what sense? Because he took a shot with no time to go and completed the miracle pass? At least Cousins game vs. NO was impressive. Keenum was part of the problem vs. NO and helped pis# that lead away and he was downright beat if the miracle didnt happen. But when you look at Kirks game vs. NO he was answering back right and left, didnt turn the ball over and went off in OT.

Well hold on a second there. Case did indeed help get NO's back in that game with a bad interception, but outside of that play he had a very good game. The guy lead an offense that scored 29 points in regulation, 23 before the miracle happened.

I don't think Cousins even keeps us in that game.

Now, I also don't think Case wins in 2019, and probably throws a bad pick in a game where we just needed safe QB play to keep us in it, and then a really great QB play to win it.

Let's not pretend Cousins was anything special in that NO game before OT though. 179 yards on 14 of 25 passing with a passer rating of 79 before OT. Those are his numbers for the game if Lutz hits a very makeable FG before halftime. Not terrible, and he didn't do anything to lose us the game, but very underwhelming.

I kind of wonder what the narrative would have been if that game had ended in a 23-20 loss? The line didn't play poorly, the D played great, and the RB had a great game. Interesting to think about.

[RandyMoss84]

We could get 2 time Super Bowl winner Elli Manning who most think blows. But he's a winner. If we offer a few 1st round picks he is ours.

Not only would a "few 1st round picks" be completely absurd for Manning, but he's a free agent. If you want him, pretty much just have to make an offer. I'll be surprised if he gets any.

I would not be surprised if that happens, Vikings did trade for over the hill McNabb remember?

[Pondering Her Percy]

In what sense? Because he took a shot with no time to go and completed the miracle pass? At least Cousins game vs. NO was impressive. Keenum was part of the problem vs. NO and helped pis# that lead away and he was downright beat if the miracle didnt happen. But when you look at Kirks game vs. NO he was answering back right and left, didnt turn the ball over and went off in OT.

Well hold on a second there. Case did indeed help get NO's back in that game with a bad interception, but outside of that play he had a very good game. The guy lead an offense that scored 29 points in regulation, 23 before the miracle happened.

I don't think Cousins even keeps us in that game.

Now, I also don't think Case wins in 2019, and probably throws a bad pick in a game where we just needed safe QB play to keep us in it, and then a really great QB play to win it.

Let's not pretend Cousins was anything special in that NO game before OT though. 179 yards on 14 of 25 passing with a passer rating of 79 before OT. Those are his numbers for the game if Lutz hits a very makeable FG before halftime. Not terrible, and he didn't do anything to lose us the game, but very underwhelming.

I kind of wonder what the narrative would have been if that game had ended in a 23-20 loss? The line didn't play poorly, the D played great, and the RB had a great game. Interesting to think about.

I guess I don’t get how you think Kirk wouldn’t keep up in the 2017 saints game, at home no less with the #1 defense in the nfl but was able to beat the saints on the road this year, with a much worse defense and not needing a miracle to do it? That just doesn’t make any sense to me. At all.

[808vikingsfan]

Here's a good scouting report of Kirk from 8 years ago. Looks like Kirk had the same issues back when he was at MSU.

What's the saying about expecting different results?

He almost appears stiff in the pocket as if he’s not comfortable working it from side to side or stepping into pressure. It’s not as if Cousins avoided punishment in this game, but he moves in the pocket like someone who has never danced before.

breakdown with pics:
QB Kirk Cousins: Footwork and Pocket Management by MATT WALDMAN MARCH 8, 2012


He's never going to change. If the Vikings want to reach the next level, it's time for a change. I don't want 4 more years of this.