Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by Mothman »

mansquatch wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:11 amIn this particular circumstance the defense was reeling, having just giving up two consecutive TD drives. The offense gave them maybe a 20 second breather and then they are back out defending a short field with almost no time to make any needed adjustments to how the opposing offense was beating them. That might not equal 7 points but it isn't far from it. Once the offense actually put together a meaningful possession the defense had time to adjust and then Green Bay never found the scoreboard again, but the damage was done.


Indeed. Plus, even though the offense didn't score on their opening drive, they moved the ball well and gave the defense a solid breather and some time to adjust. Obviously, coming right back out to defend bad field position after allowing a second early TD is a very tough situation but sometimes defenses DO rise up in situations like that. I've just always hated it when fans treat a turnover as a "mulligan" for the defense. I grew up watching Vikings defenses that excelled in goal line stands and could often spin bad situations like from straw into gold. I don't think a turnover should be viewed as an automatic score for the other team unless they literally score on the turnover play.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Cliff wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:58 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 amYep defense is only one half. When has he had a championship caliber offense? One year with a backup QB? He is responsible for that half too, or at least has been for going on 6 seasons now, but has he had the talent to work with on that side of the ball?
It's not just the final scores. Forget whether or not the team he was coaching won or lost. Look specifically at the defensive performances in the playoffs. His *defenses* not just teams, have done terrible in the playoffs.
Have they all been terrible in the playoffs though? I have gone over this I believe before, but the defense was great in 2015, pretty good against the Saints before Case put the Saints back in the game with a pick, and horrible against the SB champion offense when they played the Eagles.

I can't comment on the games in Cincy, didn't watch them. Were the defense all bad, or were the offenses giving the opposition points or putting the opposition in a good spot to score? Was the D on the field for too long and got worn down?
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:04 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:55 amYep defense is only one half. When has he had a championship caliber offense?
Where's the dominant defensive performance that carries a sub-par offense to a postseason win, even once? Where's any evidence in his 20 years as a coordinator and OC that we should expect postseason success from a Zimmer-coached defense or team?

We could go around and around about this but the bottom line is Zimmer's never had a defense actually earn the designation of "championship-caliber". Never.
Yep, and Andy Reid has never had a Championship caliber offense ever either then. That doesn't mean he isn't a top 5 HC and one of the best offensive coaches in the history of the game.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:46 am
Cliff wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:58 am

It's not just the final scores. Forget whether or not the team he was coaching won or lost. Look specifically at the defensive performances in the playoffs. His *defenses* not just teams, have done terrible in the playoffs.
Have they all been terrible in the playoffs though? I have gone over this I believe before, but the defense was great in 2015, pretty good against the Saints before Case put the Saints back in the game with a pick, and horrible against the SB champion offense when they played the Eagles.

I can't comment on the games in Cincy, didn't watch them. Were the defense all bad, or were the offenses giving the opposition points or putting the opposition in a good spot to score? Was the D on the field for too long and got worn down?
I wrote this last year in the NFCC reaction thread.
Cliff wrote: Mon Jan 22, 2018 11:19 am I like Zimmer and think it would be a mistake at this point to fire him - at the moment. He did make it farther than any other coach since 2009 (and even then the offensive coach was basically Favre). He has put together a great team and they played well all year. That said, his playoff history is beyond disturbing. I posted some stats about it in the past but here it is again;

(Last 10 years - prior to this season)
  • Bengals 2009 @ home against Jets - Gave up 171 rushing yards and 2 TDs. Allowed 12/15 182 yards 1TD/0INT to Mark Sanchez. 0 sacks, 0 INTs, 0 FFs, lost 24-14 in the Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2011 @ Houston - Gave up 188 rushing yards and 2TDs. Passing game was ok; 11/20, 159 yards 1TD/0INT to T.J. Yates. 2 sacks, 0 INTS, 0 FFs Lost 31 - 10 in Wildcard round.
  • Bengals 2012 @ Houston - Gave up 158 Rushing yards and 1 rushing TD. Matt Schaub went 29/38 for 262 yards 0TD/1INT. 0 Sacks, 1 INT, 0 FFs
  • Bengals 2013 @ Home against Chargers - gave up 196 rushing yards and 2 rushing TDs. Rivers went 12/16 for 128 yards and 1TD/0INT. 1 sack, 0 INT, 0 FFs
**I didn't include the 2015 game because I feel the circumstances were somewhat extreme. Specifically the weather. However, it was much better.

The playoff game that a team led by him (as head coach or DC) actually did win came by a "miracle" on the last play of a game they should have handily won. The way the Eagles came out after the half and continued to control the game is what a better team would have done to the Saints.

In my opinion Zimmer has a history of his defenses being exposed in the playoffs. That's honestly what I think happened this year too. It seems like Sean Peyton went into the half of that game, was able to crack the defense, and then the Eagles simply copied this week. Maybe that's too simplistic but it sure seems like what happened.

There were also some pretty major injuries. Thielen wasn't himself but the Rhodes injury was a killer. With Griffin playing hurt we weren't getting enough pressure.

My biggest fear about Zimmer is that we end up in a similar situation to what his old team is in with Marvin Lewis. The guy has a winning record and has went to the playoffs 7 out of the 15 years he's been with the team. Including a run where they didn't miss in 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, or 2015. However, he has not won a single playoff game. He's done well enough on a regular basis and is well liked enough to keep his job but I think it's obvious at this point the Bengals aren't going to the super bowl with him.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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mansquatch wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:11 am In this particular circumstance the defense was reeling, having just giving up two consecutive TD drives. The offense gave them maybe a 20 second breather and then they are back out defending a short field with almost no time to make any needed adjustments to how the opposing offense was beating them. That might not equal 7 points but it isn't far from it. Once the offense actually put together a meaningful possession the defense had time to adjust and then Green Bay never found the scoreboard again, but the damage was done.

The defensive staff deserves blame for coming into this game so flat, there is no denying that. But the short field on the last TD they gave up wasn't just on them, the offense deserves a lot of credit on that one. Overall, that was probably the worst possible situation for them to find themselves at that point in the game. Don't get me wrong, I would argue that this was one of, if not the worst, 1st quarters we've ever seen a Zimmer team play, at least in recent memory. No excuse for it, not when you are going on the road against our biggest rival.
OK, so the logic here is that the Vikings offense put them in that spot with the turnover, but guess who created that turnover? The Packers defense did. The Packers defense not only created that short field, but they also stymied the Vikings 2nd drive to open the game and got the ball back quickly for their offense.

So if the Packer defense can do stuff like that early, why can't the vaunted Vikings defense be expected to, or or at least hold the Packers to a field goal there?

Football is a team game. Sometimes the offense needs to compensate for the defense, sometimes the defense for the offense, sometimes the special teams for, well, everyone else. Making excuses for the defense in a huge divisional game like this is just making excuses for them.

And honestly, I don't have a problem with that unless those making the excuses are turning around and holding someone else's or another unit's feet to the fire. That is the definition of hypocrisy.

If Cousin's sucked yesterday and blew it, then the defense did too. And if the fact that Cousins hit Diggs on a beautiful deep strike and had another legit TD called back by blind monkey refs along with watching the field goal unit miss 3 points doesn't absolve Cousins, then neither does the 21 points on 3 drives absolve the defense. Either both sucked, or both were otherwise incredible, or, more honestly, both had their moments interspersed with total failures that ultimately cost the team the game.

In my view, the Vikings defense under Zimmer is *exactly* like the offense under Cousins - if you need 5 yards, they'll get you 3. At least they're consistent in that.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:50 amYep, and Andy Reid has never had a Championship caliber offense ever either then.
He literally won an NFC Championship with the Eagles. Plus, his teams appeared frequently in championship games, which certainly speaks more to "championship-caliber" quality.

I see your point and Zimmer is a fine defensive coach but he's not the defensive equivalent of Andy Reid.

It may seem like I'm being picky and perhaps I am but I've watched the myth-making surrounding Zimmer since he set foot in Minnesota and he simply hasn't lived up to it. Just this morning I saw a fan on Twitter praising him for "rescuing" the Vikings from their previous mediocrity. The poor sap doesn't seem to realize the team is still mired in it.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:25 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:50 amYep, and Andy Reid has never had a Championship caliber offense ever either then.
He literally won an NFC Championship with the Eagles. Plus, his teams appeared frequently in championship games, which certainly speaks more to "championship-caliber" quality.

I see your point and Zimmer is a fine defensive coach but he's not the defensive equivalent of Andy Reid.

It may seem like I'm being picky and perhaps I am but I've watched the myth-making surrounding Zimmer since he set foot in Minnesota and he simply hasn't lived up to it. Just this morning I saw a fan on Twitter praising him for "rescuing" the Vikings from their previous mediocrity. The poor sap doesn't seem to realize the team is still mired in it.
I meant SB, don't really care about winning another NFC Championship game.

In 2013 the defense was tied for 29th worst in scoring efficiency against.

In 2014 they were 18th.

2015 12th

2016 7th

2017 2nd

2018 3rd

He is a good defensive coach.

Just for comparisons sake Reid on offense:

2012 they were the 2nd worst offense (Before Reid got there)

2013 they were 19th

2014 they were 12th

2015 they were 9th

2016 16th

2017 6th

2018 #1


Both took over teams that sucked at what they do best, both turned those units around. Both have probably neglected the other side of the football too much. I would also take both to HC my team.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:55 amI meant SB, don't really care about winning another NFC Championship game.

In 2013 the defense was tied for 29th worst in scoring efficiency against.

In 2014 they were 18th.

2015 12th

2016 7th

2017 2nd

2018 3rd

He is a good defensive coach.
I agree. I stated that in the post to which you're responding.
Both took over teams that sucked at what they do best, both turned those units around. Both have probably neglected the other side of the football too much. I would also take both to HC my team.
Well, Reid's not an option for the Vikings (and considering his overall track record, probably not the best option for a team that wants to win a Super Bowl, although maybe he'll get one yet). I concluded years ago that as a head coach, Zimmer makes a good defensive coordinator. Unfortunately, that hasn't been enough.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:09 am
CharVike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:59 am As I have said many times TOs are key...I said before the season started these 1st two games will tell me what our D is. I don't see a top 5.
I am confused, after the first two games they are likely top 5 in both takeaways and points given up. By the rules YOU put out there for what makes a great D, they are top 5.

I am beginning to think that the Vikings never have and never will have a good enough defense to meet your standards.
Green Bay dominated. A good defense doesn't get dominated like that. They took the foot off the gas. We did the same against Atlanta. What do you need 40 points up there? We needed to stop them in the end and couldn't. What more needs to be known. But we are still in it. It looks bleak now but it's only one game. I'm proud that we clawed our way back into it after the D handed it to them. Down 21 makes the road much tougher. Don't you see that?
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:33 am
StumpHunter wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:30 amDefense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.
It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long. :)

EDIT: Maybe we should just refer to Zimmer's defenses as "Wild Card caliber" or "playoff caliber". I'm being facetious but that does seem appropriate!
Honestly, I think that's pretty silly. Zimmers defense has been consistently good. I would appreciate if they played a more attacking and less reactive style at times...they are clearly reading keys and reacting to them rather than forcing the issue...but with a competent, complimentary offense, This could be a championship defense and a championship team. Honestly, put aside the refs, the first two turnovers, if our imminently flapable QB doesn't throw the game away, the Vikings come away with a tough road win yesterday. Not perfect, but complimentary...and 2-0. This team finally has the line and the skill position pieces on O to get it done...this had to be the final kick in the #### wake up call for #8 or he'll officially become an NFL stop gap.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:36 am
TSonn wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:08 am

Yes. Now that PI is reviewable the refs can basically take away any passing TD they'd like. I'm not a conspiracy type of guy, but that's just a lot of potential for foul play. Our TD that got overturned was terrible for multiple reasons - 1. Cook wasn't blocking. 2. The defense made contact with Cook past 5 yards. 3. It most likely didn't even effect the play. Compound those with the fact that the announcers and Dean Blandino disagreed with the call it was just terrible overall.

I'd like to go back on the all-22 and look at the Packers TD scores and nitpick to find an offensive PI on each of them because I'm sure they're there just as much or more than what Cook did.

Moreover, Kirk threw a terrible ball, but there was some questionable contact on Diggs on that INT that could have very well been defensive PI. Also - how was that INT even a catch? It didn't seem like they even "reviewed" that INT at all and there was a lot to look at (defensive PI and was it a catch).

When was the last time a game had 4 offensive PI calls and 0 defensive PI calls? I'm guessing never?
If we're honest, even the OPI call on Green Bay's tight end was a bogus call.

The NFL has a problem. They've allowed the officials to become the focal point of the game.
The NFL has become Wrastlin', and the refs are meant to be part of the entertainment.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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fiestavike wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:28 pmHonestly, I think that's pretty silly. Zimmers defense has been consistently good. I would appreciate if they played a more attacking and less reactive style at times...they are clearly reading keys and reacting to them rather than forcing the issue...but with a competent, complimentary offense, This could be a championship defense and a championship team
So could the defenses on a dozen or more other teams in the NFL. Maybe it's silly to challenge it but this phrase has been associated with Zimmer's Vikings defenses for years now and I don't think they've ever really lived up to it. Personally, I think it implies more than just a good unit that could be part of a postseason champ. It implies dominance and consistency, the kind of defense we've seen from some of the better-known Super Bowl-winning defenses in the past (Seattle, Denver and Tampa Bay being some of the more recent examples). It certainly doesn't apply to the kind of performance we saw yesterday and if it's applied very broadly, it loses significance.
Honestly, put aside the refs, the first two turnovers, if our imminently flapable QB doesn't throw the game away, the Vikings come away with a tough road win yesterday.
Maybe. There was plenty of time left when Cousins threw that last pick so even if the Vikings had finished that possession with a TD, it's hard to say what would have happened. Unless they had gone for 2, GB would have been in position to win it with a FG.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by TSonn »

Are there any castaway QBs that we could look into picking up or trading for now to get someone to compete next year? Not that I don't think Cousins properly prepares, but Mannion isn't pushing him to work harder or make him think he could lose his job. Josh Rosen?
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

Post by TSonn »

Mothman wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 2:53 pm Maybe. There was plenty of time left when Cousins threw that last pick so even if the Vikings had finished that possession in for a score, it's hard to say what would have happened. Unless they had gone for 2, GB would have been in position to win it with a FG.
Oh yeah, we'll never know but I've seen how that movie goes many times. Too much time left for Rodgers - I'm sure he'd turn it on and lead GB to at least a FG. Our defense looked much better but GB also ran it more often than normal and took the ball out of their best player's hands which worked to our advantage.
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Re: Vikings/Packers post-game thread

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:slice:
TSonn wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:12 pm Are there any castaway QBs that we could look into picking up or trading for now to get someone to compete next year? Not that I don't think Cousins properly prepares, but Mannion isn't pushing him to work harder or make him think he could lose his job. Josh Rosen?
What is this thought process? Why do some Vikings fans continue to want to rely on someone else's garbage QB to fix our QB problems?

How many Super Bowls has that gotten this team?
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