Vikings/Packers post-game thread

[fiestavike]

Keenum was not the answer, but a good game manager, ala a healthy version of Alex Smith, and this team is contending for a title this year. In the end, Cousins is merely a stop gap as well. A flashier model, but still a stop gap QB.

Scratching my head here fiesta. I agree he wasn’t the answer but game manager? Maybe but nothing near Alex smith. Smith had some very solid years in this league. Keenum has one.....out of eight. And as someone mentioned on here, Cousins makes some amazing throws or bad throws. Did Keenum not do that? He was the king of making extremely stupid throws, more so than cousins. And I would say less great throws. “Great throws” for Keenum were throwing that stupid off balance lob he did all the time and thielen or Diggs making an insane catch. He made those throws against Washington that year and let them back in the game, he did it against Carolina, he did it against the saints in the playoffs and let them back in the game, he did it vs Philly. That’s not managing a game. That’s as terrible as cousins throw at the end of that game. But how often does cousins do that? I remember cousins did it against Detroit last year. Outside of that I don’t recall a ball he should have thrown away and threw a pick instead. But I will say, you’re right when it comes to him not being the answer. He hasn’t been for any team and never will be for any team. So I don’t understand why we even discuss it

You didn't understand what I wrote.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I think you need to hit the pillow and sleep it off. No matter what people think, Cousins, at the time, WAS the best option. Keenum was dreadful last year and they threw the towel in on him for Joe Flacco. The redskins signed him as a stop gap. That’s what he will he is a forever stop gap/back up. Miss him all you want, he’s not a good QB and was a horrible fit for Flips pass happy system. Oh and teddy, looked pathetic. No different than he did last year in a mop up game vs a Carolina team that was out of the playoffs. Bradford is Bradford. If case Keenum was any good, don’t you think teams would really be going after him? But no, nobody trusts him, he’s been on 2 different teams in 2 years and will soon be benched for Haskins.

Cousins pissed a lot of fans off today, including myself, but ya know what, so did this team. Mike zimmer pissed me off with his horrid calls early on, Rhodes pissed me off with his off coverage, our DEs pissed me off because they lost contain all game, Diggs pissed me off with his helmet penalty and lazy route on the overthrow (yes it was a lazy route. The announcer even called him out for it. He hit his break half as# and had to then sprint to try and catch it. He hits his route at full speed and that’s a catch. My dad actually called me right after that play and said that was lazy on Diggs part and he’s not even a vikes fan), thielen pissed me off today on nearly the same route as Diggs and it almost got picked (he went for a post, plants his foot and jogs, then looks back to Cousins and realized the ball was coming his way. Go back and watch the replay if you don’t believe Mr. Minnesota took a play off), Dan Bailey pissed me off today, Rudy pissed me off today with a terrible blocking effort on the long XP and so on. Nobody wants to say a damn word about the pathetic first quarter we had defensively. One of the worst I can remember. But since Kirk didnt save us from a 21-0 deficit, we’re done with him?

Bottom line is, A LOT of guys didn’t do their job today, Cousins included. And no he was not the reason we lost. The team was the reason we lost. Everyone outside of a few, failed today. We’re the better football team. Everyone tries to point a finger, primarily at Cousins for nearly every loss. The fricken team loses together or the team wins together. Figure it the fuc# out and take care of business next week

Nope, it was pretty much all Cousins today. The kicker sucked too, but that only cost us 4 in a game we lost by 5. The defense didn't stop Green Bay twice to start out the game. It happens, especially against a brand new Packer offense that was difficult to prepare for. Then Cousins basically gave them another score with one of his "unlucky" fumbles. He doesn't do that, maybe the Vikings hold the Packers on the next drive after Zim is able to adjust to an offense he hadn't seen before this game?

Then Cousins continued to suck, and suck, and suck. All he needed to do today was not turn the ball over and manage the game while Cook carried the offense and he couldn't even manage that.

It is inexcusable, and throwing blame around isn't going to change the fact that Cousins is continuing the pattern that we saw last year. Good against bad teams, bad against good.

You were right about Jackson btw. I think he would have been a good fit in our offense, just like you said before the draft. It is looking more and more like he was the best QB available that off season, at a fraction of the cost of our current QB.

IMO the jury is still out on Jackson. He played the dolphins and the cardinals. Two teams they should beat with their eyes closed.

And when you say good against bad teams and bad against good teams? So Atlanta is a bad team and GB is a good one? Granted he threw 10 passes vs Atlanta but threw the ball well when he did. The packers were 6-9-1 last year. And their win over Chicago is looking less than impressive after watching Chicago this week. They were practically beat by Denver. And put up 3 against GB. That offense is horrible. Cousins played bad today and still did more vs that defense on the road than Chicago did at home.

As for the fumble, didn’t say that one was “unlucky” at all, but did he not have guys all over him the second he hit the back of his drop? And it’s why I continue to say I don’t like this constant under center stuff. Cook can run out of the gun. No reason we need to be under center this much. Cousins is going to get killed passing from under center this much. We don’t have the OL to run 5-7 step drops from under center.

And as for the defense, I think it’s pretty unfair to say it was all cousins when he had to dig us out of a hole because the D couldn’t stop a soul. And we had a decent drive going to start that was ended by a Bailey miss. If the defense is playing well but the offense isn’t going anywhere, we have no problem blaming cousins. But when the defense isn’t doing their job, we make an excuse that “it’s tough to get use to because it’s a new offense”. Chicago didn’t have a tough time with their new offense. Why should we? Cousins sucked today but like I said, there were plenty of other players that didn’t do their job either. Which is why I say, it’s not just on cousins it’s on the team. And let’s be honest, if that PI call wasn’t made on cook, it’s a 21-21 game after the 2nd Diggs TD. And could’ve shaken out any way. Cousins probably wouldn’t have been in the position to make that terrible throw in the end.

Either way, we need to figure it out and take care of business next week. Nobody in this division impressed me. Chicago’s offense is horrendous. GB is vulnerable. And Detroit is Detroit.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Scratching my head here fiesta. I agree he wasn’t the answer but game manager? Maybe but nothing near Alex smith. Smith had some very solid years in this league. Keenum has one.....out of eight. And as someone mentioned on here, Cousins makes some amazing throws or bad throws. Did Keenum not do that? He was the king of making extremely stupid throws, more so than cousins. And I would say less great throws. “Great throws” for Keenum were throwing that stupid off balance lob he did all the time and thielen or Diggs making an insane catch. He made those throws against Washington that year and let them back in the game, he did it against Carolina, he did it against the saints in the playoffs and let them back in the game, he did it vs Philly. That’s not managing a game. That’s as terrible as cousins throw at the end of that game. But how often does cousins do that? I remember cousins did it against Detroit last year. Outside of that I don’t recall a ball he should have thrown away and threw a pick instead. But I will say, you’re right when it comes to him not being the answer. He hasn’t been for any team and never will be for any team. So I don’t understand why we even discuss it

You didn't understand what I wrote.

Not sure I do. You said we’re contending for a title this year with Keenum. How? And how do you think Keenum would have even made it through last year with flips pass happy offense. He would’ve been a horror show with zero run game and having to pass all the time. He would’ve been lucky to be on the team this year after last year went with flip.

[J. Kapp 11]

Keenum was not the answer, but a good game manager, ala a healthy version of Alex Smith, and this team is contending for a title this year. In the end, Cousins is merely a stop gap as well. A flashier model, but still a stop gap QB.

Scratching my head here fiesta. I agree he wasn’t the answer but game manager? Maybe but nothing near Alex smith. Smith had some very solid years in this league. Keenum has one.....out of eight. And as someone mentioned on here, Cousins makes some amazing throws or bad throws. Did Keenum not do that? He was the king of making extremely stupid throws, more so than cousins. And I would say less great throws. “Great throws” for Keenum were throwing that stupid off balance lob he did all the time and thielen or Diggs making an insane catch. He made those throws against Washington that year and let them back in the game, he did it against Carolina, he did it against the saints in the playoffs and let them back in the game, he did it vs Philly. That’s not managing a game. That’s as terrible as cousins throw at the end of that game. But how often does cousins do that? I remember cousins did it against Detroit last year. Outside of that I don’t recall a ball he should have thrown away and threw a pick instead. But I will say, you’re right when it comes to him not being the answer. He hasn’t been for any team and never will be for any team. So I don’t understand why we even discuss it

PHP, we're discussing it because I made an offhanded comment that I'm missing Case Keenum more by the day. It's my fault. It wasn't a serious comment, but you you've taken it and run with it. Your disdain for Keenum is obvious, and it's your right.

But ... it was not a serious comment, OK? It was more a statement of how freaking horrible Kirk Cousins was today. Because it would be virtually impossible for the worst version of Case Keenum -- or any other quarterback -- to play poorly as Cousins did today.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I think you need to hit the pillow and sleep it off. No matter what people think, Cousins, at the time, WAS the best option. Keenum was dreadful last year and they threw the towel in on him for Joe Flacco. The redskins signed him as a stop gap. That’s what he will he is a forever stop gap/back up. Miss him all you want, he’s not a good QB and was a horrible fit for Flips pass happy system. Oh and teddy, looked pathetic. No different than he did last year in a mop up game vs a Carolina team that was out of the playoffs. Bradford is Bradford. If case Keenum was any good, don’t you think teams would really be going after him? But no, nobody trusts him, he’s been on 2 different teams in 2 years and will soon be benched for Haskins.

Cousins pissed a lot of fans off today, including myself, but ya know what, so did this team. Mike zimmer pissed me off with his horrid calls early on, Rhodes pissed me off with his off coverage, our DEs pissed me off because they lost contain all game, Diggs pissed me off with his helmet penalty and lazy route on the overthrow (yes it was a lazy route. The announcer even called him out for it. He hit his break half as# and had to then sprint to try and catch it. He hits his route at full speed and that’s a catch. My dad actually called me right after that play and said that was lazy on Diggs part and he’s not even a vikes fan), thielen pissed me off today on nearly the same route as Diggs and it almost got picked (he went for a post, plants his foot and jogs, then looks back to Cousins and realized the ball was coming his way. Go back and watch the replay if you don’t believe Mr. Minnesota took a play off), Dan Bailey pissed me off today, Rudy pissed me off today with a terrible blocking effort on the long XP and so on. Nobody wants to say a damn word about the pathetic first quarter we had defensively. One of the worst I can remember. But since Kirk didnt save us from a 21-0 deficit, we’re done with him?

Bottom line is, A LOT of guys didn’t do their job today, Cousins included. And no he was not the reason we lost. The team was the reason we lost. Everyone outside of a few, failed today. We’re the better football team. Everyone tries to point a finger, primarily at Cousins for nearly every loss. The fricken team loses together or the team wins together. Figure it the fuc# out and take care of business next week

Sorry dude. I respect you a lot. But the inescapable truth is that Kirk Cousins was by far the worst player on our offense today. I've been incredibly fair to him since he's been here ... more fair than I probably should have been. As a matter of fact, within the past 20 minutes on this board, I have given him credit for some great plays he made today. But he also blew it today when it mattered. Yeah, maybe Diggs ran a lazy route. He didn't run a lazy route on the OTHER overthrow Kirk had to him. Nor was Thielen lazy on the underthrown pass to him when he had his man beat, or the overthrow on the sideline in the second half when Cousins had a clean pocket and missed Thielen by 10 yards.

And that last pick ... think about if he doesn't make that boneheaded throw, and we punch it into the end zone and win the game. If that happens, it's a heck of a lot easier to live with the other pick, the two fumbles, and the poorly thrown passes. Matter of fact, if we punch it in and win the game, we're probably not even talking about how poorly he played.

And for the record, Keenum is playing pretty darned well for a bad Washington team. No matter what you think of him, Case Keenum played his butt off for us in 2017. You can legitimately question whether that play was sustainable, but the fact that he played well for us that season is inarguable.

I’m not saying cousins wasn’t bad today. He was. But you just named plenty that didn’t do their job today. So this is why I say it wasn’t all on cousins. A game I would say was mostly on cousins, last year vs Seattle. A game where the D was stout and the offense was terrible. I blame part of that on flip for not running the ball and not adjusting to the constant doubling of our WRs but cousins crapped the bed. This game is a different story when you go down that much, that fast out of the gate. That’s downright poor defense. Zero excuse for it. It was first down after first down. The only excuse I saw with that was stump saying it’s a new offense. Not a good excuse. Chicago had zero problem with it. No reason we should have.

And as for Keenum, like I said above sure he played his butt off but idk how anyone can say it was sustainable. Where or when is he going to do that again? We’re now defending Keenum on a “bad Washington team” but guys harped on Cousins for not winning in Washington when he was on teams that were just as bad or worse. How is that fair? Keenum wasn’t good in Denver and he won’t get Washington anywhere. He will then go to a new team after Haskins takes over and get them nowhere as well. If he was any good, he would have shown it more than just 2017. He’s an 8 year vet. And had 1 good year in 8 years. I don’t care what he did in 2017 at this point, he wasn’t the answer for us and clearly any other nfl team

[cogitator]

https://walterfootball.com/draft2020QB.php

Man, has that site ever gone to the dogs with about 50 pop up ads. I could barely scroll down the page.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Scratching my head here fiesta. I agree he wasn’t the answer but game manager? Maybe but nothing near Alex smith. Smith had some very solid years in this league. Keenum has one.....out of eight. And as someone mentioned on here, Cousins makes some amazing throws or bad throws. Did Keenum not do that? He was the king of making extremely stupid throws, more so than cousins. And I would say less great throws. “Great throws” for Keenum were throwing that stupid off balance lob he did all the time and thielen or Diggs making an insane catch. He made those throws against Washington that year and let them back in the game, he did it against Carolina, he did it against the saints in the playoffs and let them back in the game, he did it vs Philly. That’s not managing a game. That’s as terrible as cousins throw at the end of that game. But how often does cousins do that? I remember cousins did it against Detroit last year. Outside of that I don’t recall a ball he should have thrown away and threw a pick instead. But I will say, you’re right when it comes to him not being the answer. He hasn’t been for any team and never will be for any team. So I don’t understand why we even discuss it

PHP, we're discussing it because I made an offhanded comment that I'm missing Case Keenum more by the day. It's my fault. It wasn't a serious comment, but you you've taken it and run with it. Your disdain for Keenum is obvious, and it's your right.

But ... it was not a serious comment, OK? It was more a statement of how freaking horrible Kirk Cousins was today. Because it would be virtually impossible for the worst version of Case Keenum -- or any other quarterback -- to play poorly as Cousins did today.

I went with it because I figured you were serious. Listen I’m just as ticked as anyone. A lot of guys including cousins failed to do their jobs today. But this season is far from over and I didn’t lose confidence in cousins. I’m losing some when it comes to constantly putting him under center but overall, I think he can still get it done. These next 3 games are big. 2 teams we should beat and 1 that we should battle with. But I can definitely see us winning the next 3.

[fiestavike]

You didn't understand what I wrote.

Not sure I do. You said we’re contending for a title this year with Keenum. How? And how do you think Keenum would have even made it through last year with flips pass happy offense. He would’ve been a horror show with zero run game and having to pass all the time. He would’ve been lucky to be on the team this year after last year went with flip.

I did not say we would be contending for a title with Keenum. I did say we would be contending for a title with a guy like Alex Smith (if he were healthy). Forgive me if I didn't communicate it clearly.

[VikingLord]

True team loss today in every sense of those words.

- The defense stunk. Yeah, I know they stiffened up, but giving up three consecutive TD drives to start a divisional game? Really? Rodgers and the Packers looked better than the Pats at their best and 16 minutes and change in the game was almost out of reach already. To top that stinker of an opening, the defense couldn't get off the field as the clock drained late in the 4th. Just an inexcusable performance from a supposed team strength, and yeah, I really don't care that they looked OK the rest of the game. This is the same sh*t we saw from this supposed top-flight unit all last year - play great for 3 of 4 quarters in key games. Didn't get the job done last year, and won't this year either.

- Special teams was special once again. Bobbled punt return by Beebe almost cost them big. Missed field goal. Blocked extra point. What do the Vikings have to do to field a competent and reliable special teams? One week great, the next crap. Like the defense, just like last year.

- Offense... I know Cousins is going to get raked here and he deserves a lot of it, but does anyone really think he alone deserves this loss laid at his feet? He throws a TD pass to Diggs that is freakin called back because after replay officials in New York look at a play that is already in the books they decide posthumously that Dalvin Cook was blocking downfield? The Dalvin Cook whose route was being impeded by a Packer DB more than 5 yards past the LOS? My god, the refs... I thought instant replay was supposed to produce just results, not allow nitpicking of plays where there was and is no clear reason to overturn or insert another opinion into the outcome. The NFL really has to clamp down on this. Packer fans may rejoice today at a result like that, but they'll surely rue it on another. Those incompetents responsible for that ruling should be fired immediately. You could get blind monkeys who could produce the same result and pay them a lot less.

OK, back to the offense. The offense played much like the defense early IMHO. The Packers brought so much pressure. They were begging to be hurt deep and Cook finally hurt them, but I am more than a little disappointed that it took so long for the Vikings to figure out what had to be done to counter that defensive style. NONE of the guys on this team are rookies. Well, some are, but not the key ones. Certainly not the ones who should be able to adjust to what the Packers were doing and friggin hurt it. They eventually did, and there were a lot more big plays the Vikings left on the field in this one and they know it, but as with the defense, you can't give the other team 21 points and 16+ minutes of dominance at their place and reasonably expect to get back in it playing the style you want to play.

The one thing that stands out to me watching the Vikings today is that this is literally the same team we saw last year. Literally the same. Not just the players and the coaches, but the style and approach, the unwillingness or inability to quickly adapt to what is happening, the inconsistency and lack of overall discipline. The same. Other than Cook being healthy and being a much better option as a running back with Mattison effectively spelling him, this is the same team we saw all of last year. Play great for 3 of 4 quarters, but man, that one quarter, especially against the good teams, is going to kill them all year just like it did last year.

The problem goes way beyond Cousins. This is Zimmer, this is the team leadership, this is the Minnesota Vikings of the late 2010's. Good enough to be right there, but when it matters, when they have to step up, they'll fold. They're like the team version of Leroy Hoard - if you need 2 yards they'll get you 3, if you need 5 yards they'll get you 3. Hoard could produce some exciting runs and was an effective running back, but he wasn't a game changer. These Vikings of Mike Zimmer are the team version of Leroy Hoard.

Blame Cousins till the cows come home, but you put almost any other QB behind center on this team and you'll get the same result. The QB doesn't play defense. He doesn't play special teams. He doesn't drop passes, and he doesn't control the blind monkey review refs in New York. He doesn't prepare the team for games and doesn't control the overall offensive strategy or determine what adjustments get made and when they get made. That's not being an apologist for Cousins, either. He stunk on his own today, and it's pretty clear if the Vikings need to rely on him to win games they're going to lose a lot more than they win. It's just at this point, with this much experience and continuity on the team, it shouldn't come down to Cousins. The fact that it still is, is a damning indictment on the rest of the team, from the coaches on down in every phase of the game.

So depressing because the Packers really aren't that good this year. That will be clear soon enough. This was a game the Vikings could have and should have won.

[CharVike]

This was a team lose. The defense was a joke and not just at the beginning. They couldn't stop them at the end either. I'm not even sure we did stop them or they backed off. Just like we backed off Atlanta. The running game was brilliant again and this OC we have decided to put the ball up. Why? Our coaching was pathetic. We turned the ball over. As I have said many times TOs are key. We got some home cooking from the refs. Right now we look to be a 500 team. I said before the season started these 1st two games will tell me what our D is. I don't see a top 5. We are middle of the pack and that don't cut it. Will never make the show with a D like that. This idiot OC shouldn't even bother to put the ball up. Too many bad things can happen. Plus our pass blocking blows. Watch it will be another 30+ PA game coming up. But Cousins was the biggest joke. He was horrible. Couldn't even think straight. But at this point we don't have a guy in the wings. That's why I wanted us to pick that QB Lock. At least he could have sat until Cousins contract is up. Green Bay could win this division. Two division games and two victories. Long way to go but it don't look good right now.

[StumpHunter]

Blame Cousins till the cows come home, but you put almost any other QB behind center on this team and you'll get the same result.

LOL! The depths to which Cousins apologists will go to defend the QB blows my mind. All Cousins had to do in that game was not give it away to the Packers. That is it.


I actually came in to this thread to talk about the positives from yesterday's game, and read your post saying the exact opposite of what I saw.

Defense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.

STs: I actually agree on this one. They are bad, and it turns out our kicking problems weren't on the holder or STs coordinator, but get this, they were actually on the kicker. Shocking.

Offense: Line played better than any time last year, giving Cousins time to throw most dropbacks and opening holes for Cook. I don't know if you can go back to Elf after Dozier played at least good enough where I didn't really notice him. Kline is an upgrade over Remmers it looks like, if not great. Bradbury will get better as he gets more games under his belt.

The run game was fantastic. Cook might be the most explosive RB in the NFL, and he can break tackles to boot. It is a shame we wasted a year of his career by putting that line in front of him last year. It is going to be a fun season watching him go off on teams this season as we turn to running the football more than passing.

WRs are still great, despite an almost impossible to catch pass dropped by Diggs on 3rd down after it was tipped right before it got to him. I also don't care about the helmet penalty. Blai...er...Carl...er...Bailey should be able to make that kick anyway, and the line should be able to block well enough for him to not get it blocked.

The officiating is what it is. The Packers will always get the calls when we play them, there is nothing we can do about it. Even with pretty much every call going against us, that game was winnable at the end, which just goes to show just how good this team is. Or how bad the Packers are. I am good with either one honestly.


So for the most part this game showed us that we have a very talented team minus the QB and kicker. There are a ton of positives to take away from it, and I actually feel better about the team today than I did before the game. Of course, I knew the QB wasn't good enough and didn't need this game to tell me otherwise, just like I knew the kicker was still the same one we had last year. I had reasonable expectations for those two, and so I am not disappointed like others apparently are, when they fail.

[StumpHunter]

As I have said many times TOs are key...I said before the season started these 1st two games will tell me what our D is. I don't see a top 5.

I am confused, after the first two games they are likely top 5 in both takeaways and points given up. By the rules YOU put out there for what makes a great D, they are top 5.

I am beginning to think that the Vikings never have and never will have a good enough defense to meet your standards.

[TSonn]

I avoided coming to this board over the past year because of all the Cousins haters but I am now one of them. So I'm back. Cousins sucks until he proves me otherwise... not the other way around anymore. But the silver lining (if it could be considered that) is that Keenum would've thrown that exact same pass and Teddy still looks terrible even with the Saints offense around him so I can't say we necessarily made the wrong decision.

Anyway... can we bring in Bradford? Seriously. I'll take broken knees all day over a broken head.

[Maelstrom88]

An extremely disheartening loss. The QB play is atrocious and the playcalling in the red zone when you're averaging 8 yards a pop on the ground was beyond stupid.

[Mothman]

Defense: Caught off guard after an abysmal showing by Rodgers and the Packers offense against the Bears. Rodgers shook the rust off for this game, and the Packers came out with a great game plan to start. After a very bad showing for the first 2.5 drives (the third was at least half on the QB, and that is being generous to the QB), they had the best 3 quarters I have seen a Vikings defense play in a long time. This D is legit, and is championship caliber.

It's a good unit but we've been hearing for years that Zimmer's defenses are championship caliber and they're simply not. I say that so emphatically because his history as an HC and defensive coordinator backs it up. It's further reinforced by the fact that, in the one actual championship game in which a Zimmer defense played, the Vikings were blown out. Yesterday's performance certainly wasn't indicative of a championship-caliber unit. Nothing about giving up 3 TDs on GB's first 3 possessions was "championship caliber". As VikingLord pointed out, they failed to come through with a stop late in the game when it was desperately needed. Plus, they allowed 144 yards rushing! It's certainly to their credit that they prevented GB from scoring again after those first 3 TDs and they were effective for the better part of 3 quarters but, as we all know, football games are 4 quarters long.

EDIT: Maybe we should just refer to Zimmer's defenses as "Wild Card caliber" or "playoff caliber". I'm being facetious but that does seem appropriate!