Mike Zimmer should be fired!!!

[vikeinmontana]

Following this thread is like listening to a political debate.

The simple fact is football is the ultimate team game. When things are going great there is a ton of credit that needs to go around. When things are bad there is almost always a ton of blame to go around.

I get it. Coaches and QB's are ALWAYS going to take most of the heat when it's bad. Same reason they get all the cred when we're rolling. I think we're learning that many people are to blame for where we are at right now. It doesn't have to be a Cousins vs. coaching topic.

Cousins hasn't looked great. Our O-line has been just awful as long as I remember. The offensive play calling has been a head-scratcher all year. Our running game a non-factor. I think Spielman needs to do a better job making our OLine a priority. With that I believe the running game improves. An improved run game helps the pass game. Balance on offense makes coordinators look great. If the coordinators look great the head coach looks great. When the head coach looks great you usually have a championship caliber team!


Hate seeing one guy or one coach take so much heat when so much has to be done right to have success. Cousins is just a piece.

[Mothman]

Following this thread is like listening to a political debate.

Feels like it too...

[Pondering Her Percy]

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football. But he made those ridiculous throws almost every game where he falls to his back foot and throws a lollipop up in the air. The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked. The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

You are blaming Case for not taking care of the ball, but praising Cousins? What are you on? Did you see that pitch or whatever it was, to Cook or Murray late in the game? I think Cousins messed his pants cause he had no idea what to do with the football.

Did I praise cousins for taking care of the football? However I’m pretty sure Case made a lot more dumb throws off his back foot last year than cousins ever did. No less did it in the playoffs. Foe me please

[J. Kapp 11]

So if you don't currently think Zimmer should be fired what would it take?

For me if they manage to miss the playoffs this year and don't make a noticeable improvement next year. It would help his case a lot if the team got a playoff win between now and then, even just a wild card. It would make me feel better about Zimmer in the playoffs. I know technically he has a win ... but that win doesn't make me feel good either apart from the awesome "miracle" play.

He's signed through next season anyway I believe which will be the perfect time for an evaluation.

Agree on the evaluation. It needs to happen, and probably will happen. I can't see them extending Zimmer before the season, especially if we miss the playoffs.

But in fairness, if you're going to put an asterisk next to the New Orleans win, then you have to also put one next to the Seattle loss when Blair Walsh pooped the bed. Zimmer could easily have two playoff wins right now.

[Cliff]

Agree on the evaluation. It needs to happen, and probably will happen. I can't see them extending Zimmer before the season, especially if we miss the playoffs.

But in fairness, if you're going to put an asterisk next to the New Orleans win, then you have to also put one next to the Seattle loss when Blair Walsh pooped the bed. Zimmer could easily have two playoff wins right now.

That is a fair point and one I'll keep in mind when thinking about Zimmer's performance. Though I will say kicker problems have been a reoccurring problem under Zimmer. Or is it just a Vikings thing? Either way, that was a pretty "gimme" field goal and really should have been a win as far as coaching/the rest of the team goes.

I don't think that changes my mind about the requirements for him being fired, but it does remind me that he has had some success there, even if that game didn't translate to a win.

[Mothman]

That is a fair point and one I'll keep in mind when thinking about Zimmer's performance. Though I will say kicker problems have been a reoccurring problem under Zimmer. Or is it just a Vikings thing? Either way, that was a pretty "gimme" field goal and really should have been a win as far as coaching/the rest of the team goes.

I look at the two games as balancing each other out: one lucky win, one unfortunate loss. Zimmer could easily have two playoff wins right now or just as easily have none. Based on how all 3 games played out, 1-2 seems about right.

[J. Kapp 11]

That is a fair point and one I'll keep in mind when thinking about Zimmer's performance. Though I will say kicker problems have been a reoccurring problem under Zimmer. Or is it just a Vikings thing? Either way, that was a pretty "gimme" field goal and really should have been a win as far as coaching/the rest of the team goes.

I look at the two games as balancing each other out: one lucky win, one unfortunate loss. Zimmer could easily have two playoff wins right now or just as easily have none. Based on how all 3 games played out, 1-2 seems about right.

Well, we'll disagree on the lucky win part. We dominated the Saints game for 3 quarters, and a bad interception and a blocked punt put New Orleans back in the game. To their credit, New Orleans made the most of it.

What I DO think is that New Orleans uncovered something with Zimmer's defensive scheme that other teams copied, and the effect carried over well into the 2018 season. To his credit, Zimmer has adjusted nicely. The defense is playing really well over the past 7 or 8 games. But the offense is as bad or worse right now than it has been in the past 10 years. The past two games, it has to challenge even the Ponder years, where we had little talent at wideout and quarterback, but at least we had Adrian Peterson.

As I've outlined earlier, even though I like Mike Zimmer, my belief is that the utter ineptitude on offense HAS to put him on notice. Next year is a contract year, and if the Wilfs don't extend him before the season (I don't know how they could with a straight face) then it's a clear indication that his job is on the line.

[mansquatch]

Following this thread is like listening to a political debate.

Feels like it too...

This is why I've avoided this thread like the plague. No need to roll around in the mud.

That being said, I think this season has brought to the forefront a weakness of his, which is the hiring process used on high level assistants. The ST issues have gone on way too long, there is obviously an issue with how they are coaching kickers. And then there is OC. Shurmer was a good hire. Norv and JDF were not. He needs to get the next OC hire right. This is year where it was obvious that they had most of the pieces needed for a successful offense. They have completely failed to utilize those pieces well on Sundays and a lot of that IMO, has been on the game planning, play calling, and general scheme.

My dream: He gets Bruce Arians to come out of retirement.

[Mothman]

Well, we'll disagree on the lucky win part. We dominated the Saints game for 3 quarters, and a bad interception and a blocked punt put New Orleans back in the game. To their credit, New Orleans made the most of it.

They did but they also created those opportunities. The blocked punt and INT weren't unforced errors.

I think it's fair to dispute my "lucky win" comment. The more I think about it, there's probably no such thing as a lucky win or even a loss that "should have been a win". Given the nature of the game, every win is earned and every loss deserved.

But the offense is as bad or worse right now than it has been in the past 10 years. The past two games, it has to challenge even the Ponder years, where we had little talent at wideout and quarterback, but at least we had Adrian Peterson.

It's been awful.

As I've outlined earlier, even though I like Mike Zimmer, my belief is that the utter ineptitude on offense HAS to put him on notice. Next year is a contract year, and if the Wilfs don't extend him before the season (I don't know how they could with a straight face) then it's a clear indication that his job is on the line.

Agreed (and ditto for Rick Spielman).

I keep thinking back to that article I mentioned a few pages ago and the description of Zimmer's response during a head coaching interview before he came to the Vikings. When asked to provide a window into his philosophy, to provide something to indicate how he’d run a team and build his staff, Zimmer wouldn’t go there. He just kept saying he would figure it out.

It sure seems like that's exactly what we've seen over the last 5 years in Minnesota. Zimmer came to the Vikes, knew he wanted to run his defense, worked to get that defense in place and he still seems to be "figuring out" the rest.

[Dames]

I keep thinking back to that article I mentioned a few pages ago and the description of Zimmer's response during a head coaching interview before he came to the Vikings. When asked to provide a window into his philosophy, to provide something to indicate how he’d run a team and build his staff, Zimmer wouldn’t go there. He just kept saying he would figure it out.

It sure seems like that's exactly what we've seen over the last 5 years in Minnesota. Zimmer came to the Vikes, knew he wanted to run his defense, worked to get that defense in place and he still seems to be "figuring out" the rest.

I remember reading that article a couple years back. We don't really know if his interview with the Vikings went similarly, so I kind of wrote it off. I happen to really like Zim and I think he should get at least one more year regardless of how the season ends. Generally he's been successful here. That said, there are some things he is lacking in, and maybe it goes back to some of what the article spoke about.

Regarding the offense, he clearly needs a full service OC, since he doesn't seem to be involved with any of the O on game day. I would really prefer a HC that runs the entire team on game day instead of mainly the defense. I love our D for the most part, but either you trust your DC to do his job or you don't. If not, find someone that you do. Then run the whole game and tweak both sides as needed. It can still be your defensive philosophy. I dunno, it worked very well last year with Shurmur, so maybe he just didn't find the right guy for OC. Or maybe it wasn't entirely his call. There was a LOT of hype around DeFilippo last year, so there was probably some pressure to get him.

Anyway, I personally thought Stefanski should have got the job last year, so this is a nice way to try it out. The fact that Shurmur tried to steal him away said an awful lot about how he felt about him. I guess we'll see what happens for the rest of the season.

[mansquatch]

It's been awful.

This is where I really think the issues on the offensive coaching staff were glaring. You basically had the same group from last year outside of the injuries at Guard. They had more Cook to use this year vs. 2017 and they had a significant upgrade at QB. Yet now the Offense has taken a massive step back. When you look at what changed YOY, it is very hard to not point a finger at JDF. The players are there. The hits at Guard were bad, but is that enough to turn this rushing attack into bottom of the league and take the passing offense with it as it has the last few games? I just do not see that from a purely talent standpoint. If you blame the OL, that is almost like saying the Guards have an effect similar to a QB on the whole operation. That just doesn't carry water. The OC has mismanaged this unit mightily. Hopefully Stefanski can right the ship.

[PurpleKoolaid]

It's been awful.

This is where I really think the issues on the offensive coaching staff were glaring. You basically had the same group from last year outside of the injuries at Guard. They had more Cook to use this year vs. 2017 and they had a significant upgrade at QB. Yet now the Offense has taken a massive step back. When you look at what changed YOY, it is very hard to not point a finger at JDF. The players are there. The hits at Guard were bad, but is that enough to turn this rushing attack into bottom of the league and take the passing offense with it as it has the last few games? I just do not see that from a purely talent standpoint. If you blame the OL, that is almost like saying the Guards have an effect similar to a QB on the whole operation. That just doesn't carry water. The OC has mismanaged this unit mightily. Hopefully Stefanski can right the ship.

How is Cousin a significant upgrade from last year? Hes won 6 whole games this year, the most he can win in the regular season is 9. CASE WON 13 games and only lost 3!! Why is that so hard for some to understand? Why do those same people think Case could go from losing 3 games all of last year, to only winning 2? Because Cris Carter told you? All of our problems were Deflip?? Really?

[Pondering Her Percy]

How can nobody see that Case is not a good QB? He's had ONE good year out of 7. ONE. That's what baffles me. He nearly blew us the game vs. NO but everyone defends him because he had a miracle play. But tend to forget that he flopped hard the following game. That's like guys defending Teddy just because he's a nice guy and they feel bad for him. Neither were very good QBs. Carson Wentz goes 11-2 and a dud takes over for him and wins a SB. The Eagles add talent to an already loaded roster and get Wentz back this year and they are 6-7. Chances are, they are going to miss the playoffs entirely. How does that happen? Must mean Wentz drastically regressed since he's not repeating last years performance right? Going from 11-2 to 6-7....yeah its easily all because of Wentz. Nick Foles took over at the most critical time and won a damn Super Bowl!! And Nick Foles isnt even starting anywhere. And probably never will again unless it's by default. Case Keenum was nothing but a mirage last year. It was a luck filled, riding a high horse type year and that luck carried into our first playoff game. If he was really that good, he would have done SOMETHING else in this league either before 2017 or now. He hasnt. Still the same old Case.

Just simply looking at wins and losses in 2017 and 2018 to judge "who the better QB is", shows me that you know little about football. There is so much more that goes into that than just wins and losses. I'm so sick of hearing the Case Keenum garbage. He's gone and he did exactly what we thought he'd do.....come back down to earth. Putting him in an offense with pass heavy Flip.....recipe for disaster. So yeah, Carter is right, Keenum would be terrible here because he would be throwing 40 times a game and have no help from his OL.

[Mothman]

How is Cousin a significant upgrade from last year?

I don't see it either. I understand why people view Cousins as a superior QB to Keenum when comparing their entire pro careers but if you just compare the performance at QB for the Vikes in 2017 and 2018, it's pretty clear Cousins has not been a significant upgrade.

[Mothman]

How can nobody see that Case is not a good QB? He's had ONE good year out of 7. ONE.

In a head-to-head comparison between the quality of performance the Vikings had at QB last season and the quality of performance they're getting at QB this season, that's the only year that matters because it's the only year Keenum was a Viking.

Just simply looking at wins and losses in 2017 and 2018 to judge "who the better QB is", shows me that you know little about football.

Disagree and respond to the post, do not attack the poster.

There is so much more that goes into that than just wins and losses.

That's right, there is... there's chemistry, mobility, leadership, response to pressure, performance and composure in critical situations, turnovers (Cousins has twice as many in 13 games as Keenum had last year in 14+) and more, all of which contribute to wins and losses. Whether Keenum's 2017 performance was a fluke or whether it could have been sustained with the Vikings is a different discussion than whether Kirk Cousins, in 2018, has been a significant upgrade over what case Keenum brought to the position in his "one good year". Cousins has clearly not been a significant upgrade.