Mike Zimmer should be fired!!!

[Mothman]

You mention not giving credit to Keenum for winning but giving it to Zimmer. Let's be honest here, if it wasnt for Case Keenum, that Saints game would have been in the bag and there wouldnt be a need for a miracle. Case Keenum (and the special teams) single handedly put NO back in that game. Everyone tries to blame "Zim and his defense" but think about it. Keenum threw an awful "pop fly" (like he did just about once a game or more and would either get lucky on or throw a pick) which got picked off and brought into the red zone

It was returned to the 30 (which is good field position but not the red zone). New Orleans then drove 30 yards for their second TD of the game.

Then our special teams allows a blocked punt that put them in the red zone. That's not on Zim and his defense.

The Saints recovered the blocked punt at the Vikings 40 yard line. That red zone is getting larger.

New Orleans then drove 40 yards for their second TD of the game.

If an opponent takes possession of the ball at the 30 or 40 (the latter is basically the outermost margins of field goal range) and scores a TD, that's on the defense. There's no disputing that the INT and the blocked punt put the defense in difficult positions but the main argument for retaining Zimmer hinges on the quality of his defense, doesn't it? Situations like those above, in a playoff game, are where a supposedly elite defense needs to rise to the occasion. Ditto for the championship game. When a "pick 6 and sucks the air right out of the team" but the game is still close, isn't that when an elite defense needs to assert itself rather than getting dominated for the remainder of the game?

[PurpleMustReign]

You mention not giving credit to Keenum for winning but giving it to Zimmer. Let's be honest here, if it wasnt for Case Keenum, that Saints game would have been in the bag and there wouldnt be a need for a miracle. Case Keenum (and the special teams) single handedly put NO back in that game. Everyone tries to blame "Zim and his defense" but think about it. Keenum threw an awful "pop fly" (like he did just about once a game or more and would either get lucky on or throw a pick) which got picked off and brought into the red zone

It was returned to the 30 (which is good field position but not the red zone). New Orleans then drove 30 yards for their second TD of the game.

Then our special teams allows a blocked punt that put them in the red zone. That's not on Zim and his defense.

The Saints recovered the blocked punt at the Vikings 40 yard line. That red zone is getting larger.

New Orleans then drove 40 yards for their second TD of the game.

If an opponent takes possession of the ball at the 30 or 40 (the latter is basically the outermost margins of field goal range) and scores a TD, that's on the defense. There's no disputing that the INT and the blocked punt put the defense in difficult positions but the main argument for retaining Zimmer hinges on the quality of his defense, doesn't it? Situations like those above, in a playoff game, are where a supposedly elite defense needs to rise to the occasion. Ditto for the championship game. When a "pick 6 and sucks the air right out of the team" but the game is still close, isn't that when an elite defense needs to assert itself rather than getting dominated for the remainder of the game?

Dknt forget, too, after Forbaths FG, the Saints converted a 4th and 10 to get into FG range. The defense didn't stop the Saints on that drive, and had it not been for Anthony Harris, the saints would have had an east TD on the play before their FG with 25 seconds left.

[Pondering Her Percy]

You mention not giving credit to Keenum for winning but giving it to Zimmer. Let's be honest here, if it wasnt for Case Keenum, that Saints game would have been in the bag and there wouldnt be a need for a miracle. Case Keenum (and the special teams) single handedly put NO back in that game. Everyone tries to blame "Zim and his defense" but think about it. Keenum threw an awful "pop fly" (like he did just about once a game or more and would either get lucky on or throw a pick) which got picked off and brought into the red zone

It was returned to the 30 (which is good field position but not the red zone). New Orleans then drove 30 yards for their second TD of the game.

Then our special teams allows a blocked punt that put them in the red zone. That's not on Zim and his defense.

The Saints recovered the blocked punt at the Vikings 40 yard line. That red zone is getting larger.

New Orleans then drove 40 yards for their second TD of the game.

If an opponent takes possession of the ball at the 30 or 40 (the latter is basically the outermost margins of field goal range) and scores a TD, that's on the defense. There's no disputing that the INT and the blocked punt put the defense in difficult positions but the main argument for retaining Zimmer hinges on the quality of his defense, doesn't it? Situations like those above, in a playoff game, are where a supposedly elite defense needs to rise to the occasion. Ditto for the championship game. When a "pick 6 and sucks the air right out of the team" but the game is still close, isn't that when an elite defense needs to assert itself rather than getting dominated for the remainder of the game?

Sorry not the "redzone" but both turnovers were in OUR end of the field. Right after we got done playing defense both times. Keenums pick was the first play after we got the ball back! No, that's NOT on the defense. You put Drew Brees on the 30 or 40 with a tired defense, that's tough to stop. And it doesnt happen if it wasnt for their stupid mistakes. Elite defense or not it doesnt matter. If you put any defense in that situation, chances are they are giving up points. As for the Eagles game, yeah defense played terrible but the offense was just as bad. No questions about either of them. But the DEFENSE was NOT the reason the Saints came back in that game. Agree with it or not, I'm going to sit here and say that wasnt the case 10 times out of 10. So I guess we will agree to disagree there

[Pondering Her Percy]

It was returned to the 30 (which is good field position but not the red zone). New Orleans then drove 30 yards for their second TD of the game.



The Saints recovered the blocked punt at the Vikings 40 yard line. That red zone is getting larger.

New Orleans then drove 40 yards for their second TD of the game.

If an opponent takes possession of the ball at the 30 or 40 (the latter is basically the outermost margins of field goal range) and scores a TD, that's on the defense. There's no disputing that the INT and the blocked punt put the defense in difficult positions but the main argument for retaining Zimmer hinges on the quality of his defense, doesn't it? Situations like those above, in a playoff game, are where a supposedly elite defense needs to rise to the occasion. Ditto for the championship game. When a "pick 6 and sucks the air right out of the team" but the game is still close, isn't that when an elite defense needs to assert itself rather than getting dominated for the remainder of the game?

Dknt forget, too, after Forbaths FG, the Saints converted a 4th and 10 to get into FG range. The defense didn't stop the Saints on that drive, and had it not been for Anthony Harris, the saints would have had an east TD on the play before their FG with 25 seconds left.

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football. But he made those ridiculous throws almost every game where he falls to his back foot and throws a lollipop up in the air. The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked. The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

[PurpleMustReign]

Dknt forget, too, after Forbaths FG, the Saints converted a 4th and 10 to get into FG range. The defense didn't stop the Saints on that drive, and had it not been for Anthony Harris, the saints would have had an east TD on the play before their FG with 25 seconds left.

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football. But he made those ridiculous throws almost every game where he falls to his back foot and throws a lollipop up in the air. The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked. The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

I'm done with this. If that us seriously all you are getting from my posrs then I can't help you.
Cousins, Zimmer, and spielman are all gods. I will bow down to them from now on.

[Mothman]

Sorry not the "redzone" but both turnovers were in OUR end of the field. Right after we got done playing defense both times. Keenums pick was the first play after we got the ball back! No, that's NOT on the defense. You put Drew Brees on the 30 or 40 with a tired defense, that's tough to stop.

It is tough to stop but you can't have it both ways. Do the Vikes have a defense so good they can't afford to lose Zimmer or not? That's the basic line a lot of Zimmer supporters have pushed for years now, although it's obviously not the only point made in support of his coaching. Shouldn't it be equally tough for Brees to drive the Saints to TDs in both of those situations? After all, they were up against the top-ranked defense in the NFL. I've seen truly great defenses shut situations like that down or turn the tables and take the ball back.

High rankings and declarations that Zimmer's a defensive mastermind the Vikes can't afford to lose mean nothing if the defense can't step up in situations that crucial.

[Cliff]

So if you don't currently think Zimmer should be fired what would it take?

For me if they manage to miss the playoffs this year and don't make a noticeable improvement next year. It would help his case a lot if the team got a playoff win between now and then, even just a wild card. It would make me feel better about Zimmer in the playoffs. I know technically he has a win ... but that win doesn't make me feel good either apart from the awesome "miracle" play.

He's signed through next season anyway I believe which will be the perfect time for an evaluation.

[Mothman]

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

There's no such thing as "guaranteed point" territory.

The loss (of the lead) isn't entirely on the defense but they had a 17 point lead to protect and they didn't protect it.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football.

Nobody is denying that he made a mistake but his mistake doesn't justify simply absolving the defense of responsibility for giving up a TD. That's justified on a pick 6, not a turnover that sets the opposition up at the 30.

The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked.

It also literally doesn't happen if the defense doesn't give up the TD. That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

Who gave up the actual TDs? Case didn't throw a pick 6. The blocked punt wasn't returned for a TD. You're making excuses. This is beyond simple: if the defense is on the field when the opposing offense scores a TD, the defense gave up the TD.

[Pondering Her Percy]

So if you don't currently think Zimmer should be fired what would it take?

For me if they manage to miss the playoffs this year and don't make a noticeable improvement next year. It would help his case a lot if the team got a playoff win between now and then, even just a wild card. It would make me feel better about Zimmer in the playoffs. I know technically he has a win ... but that win doesn't make me feel good either apart from the awesome "miracle" play.

He's signed through next season anyway I believe which will be the perfect time for an evaluation.

Thats exactly what I'm saying and Ive said all along. Firing him when he still "makes the playoffs" (assuming here) one year removed from the NFC championship game and you fire him, thats asinine sorry. But if he missed the playoffs this year and goes in the tank next year, 100% consider it. I'm not tied to Mike Zimmer in any way. I just think he's a damn good coach and firing him at this point makes absolutely zero sense. Especially if they still make the playoffs. And like it or not, I can tell you, he will NOT get fired this offseason if they make the playoffs

[Pondering Her Percy]

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

There's no such thing as "guaranteed point" territory.

The loss (of the lead) isn't entirely on the defense but they had a 17 point lead to protect and they didn't protect it.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football.

Nobody is denying that he made a mistake but his mistake doesn't justify simply absolving the defense of responsibility for giving up a TD. That's justified on a pick 6, not a turnover that sets the opposition up at the 30.

The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked.

It also literally doesn't happen if the defense doesn't give up the TD. That's not a difficult concept to grasp.

The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

Who gave up the actual TDs? Case didn't throw a pick 6. The blocked punt wasn't returned for a TD. You're making excuses. This is beyond simple: if the defense is on the field when the opposing offense scores a TD, the defense gave up the TD.

How did the DEFENSE not protect the 17 point lead Jim? It was our ball. Case didnt protect that lead. And then put it on the defense to stop them inside the 30 because of his stupid play. My goodness

[Cliff]

Likewise; if you currently think Zimmer should be fired what would he have to do (assuming he'll stay on through 2019) to change your mind between now and then?

[PurpleKoolaid]

Dknt forget, too, after Forbaths FG, the Saints converted a 4th and 10 to get into FG range. The defense didn't stop the Saints on that drive, and had it not been for Anthony Harris, the saints would have had an east TD on the play before their FG with 25 seconds left.

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football. But he made those ridiculous throws almost every game where he falls to his back foot and throws a lollipop up in the air. The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked. The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

You are blaming Case for not taking care of the ball, but praising Cousins? What are you on? Did you see that pitch or whatever it was, to Cook or Murray late in the game? I think Cousins messed his pants cause he had no idea what to do with the football.

[PurpleKoolaid]

So are we just going to nitpick every play the defense made in the 2nd half and not hold Keenum or the ST accountable? This defense wasnt invincible. They cant carry all the weight. Especially when they are getting pinned into "guaranteed point" territory with both turnovers.

How about "yeah, Case made one of the dumbest throws I've ever seen when we were backed up in our own end".....Not immediately jumped to "well the defense should have stopped them". Like what?! That TD literally doesnt happen if Case takes care of the football. But he made those ridiculous throws almost every game where he falls to his back foot and throws a lollipop up in the air. The other TD literally doesnt happen if we dont allow a punt to get blocked. The game would have been in the bag. But since Case pulled off the miracle "Go Case"! and Zim's defense is the one that blew the lead.

I'm done with this. If that us seriously all you are getting from my posrs then I can't help you.
Cousins, Zimmer, and spielman are all gods. I will bow down to them from now on.

Frustrating isnt it. To some people those 3 are saints. You cant even question their decisions. The sad truth is ALL of them share in the blame for whats happened to this team. As if firing Deflip will help much. Way too little, way too late.

[Mothman]

How did the DEFENSE not protect the 17 point lead Jim? It was our ball. Case didnt protect that lead. And then put it on the defense to stop them inside the 30 because of his stupid play. My goodness

My goodness, indeed. This is simple:

The Vikings had a 17 point lead and they ended up trailing in the final seconds of the game. I assume we can agree the Vikings gave up their lead.

New Orleans didn't score any points on returns or safeties.

Therefore, all of the Saints points were scored against the Vikings defense (with the obvious caveat that technically, FGs are a special teams play).

There's no such thing as "guaranteed point" territory. There's certainly no such thing as guaranteed touchdown territory. The defense gave up the points. Case and the STs put them in a couple of tough situations but that doesn't alter the bottom line.

[Mothman]

Likewise; if you currently think Zimmer should be fired what would he have to do (assuming he'll stay on through 2019) to change your mind between now and then?

Assuming there would be no extension between now and the end of 2019, I'd want to see:

— Offseason moves and hires that show a genuine vision for the offense:
• What kind of scheme does he want them to run?
• Has he hired an OC that matches well with that ideology?
• Roster moves that make sense with the choices above and enable improvement

— Better game-planning and in-game coaching: no more obvious problems like coming out of the bye week to play for first place against the Bears and looking unprepared for the most basic strengths of their opponent. On a related note:

— A season without "flat game" blowouts and upsets like the Buffalo game this year (where they also looked unprepared), the SF game to open 2015, etc. I feel there have been too many games like that where Zimmer and his team were obviously underprepared and out-coached. I can think of fewer games where his team out-coached a quality opponent so a real upset win for the Vikings would be very encouraging, though not necessary.

— A top defense that plays like it when it counts. They certainly haven't done that this season or in the playoffs last year. Defense is Zimmer's biggest selling point. His teams need to really deliver in that area, especially in big games.

— Improved kicking game and improved OL play.

— A winning record and a playoff win. If they lose in the playoffs, it needs to be in a hard-fought, well-coached effort, not the kind of embarrassment they suffered against the Eagles. If they don't lose in the playoffs, that will obviously indicate a satisfactory and extension-worthy performance.

One last point: for the Vikings to consider extending Zimmer's deal this offseason, I'd hope to see them win out and then the same playoff comments mentioned above would apply.

I realize some of what I wrote above inevitably involves Spielman too. I think their fates are inextricably tied together at this point and it sounds like their contracts expire at the same time.