"Bubble" players

[Mothman]

Out of curiosity, why? Would it be much different if it was Mike Mayock or Norv Turner watching Kalil getting beaten on the edge or inside?

Mayock and Turner would provide the perspective of experienced professionals. I see too much bias in the amateur press and they lack that kind of perspective. I also think they have a greater tendency to read too much into small things and angle for web traffic. They seem to love turning molehills into mountains.

While I'll concede perhaps he could share some of the responsibility for a missed assignment with Fusco, I doubt getting beat as often as he is is a result of anything but his lack of execution.

How often is he actually getting beat? I don't think that's clear from what's been reported. He's inevitably going to miss some blocks during practices. The DEs are talented. Reporting on the misses feeds into doubts about Kalil's capabilities but do a few misses paint an accurate picture of Kalil's overall performance thus far in camp?

If he hadn't allowed anybody to get past him last week, we'd be able to fret about Griffen, Hunter and the pass rush. It's camp! I just don't get worked up about it. My main concern at this time of year is that players stay healthy.

I suppose we'll never know how healthy he truly is but count me in the corner of those that take his poor showing (by multiple sources, not just your buddy Arif dogging him) to date as a barometer (he's not just getting beat by Griffen)

Yes, I know. Hunter beat Kalil on a clean inside move. I've been paying attention.

[dead_poet]

Mayock and Turner would provide the perspective of experienced professionals. I see too much bias in the amateur press and they lack that kind of perspective. I also think they have a greater tendency to read too much into small things and angle for web traffic. They seem to love turning molehills into mountains.

I suppose, but does seeing a guy getting beat one-on-one (repeatedly) really take an offensive coordinator to spot that the guy may not be competent (average) starting NFL left tackle material? At what point does it become clear that, yeah, this is a guy that has no business starting at left tackle...

I'm not sure they're making mountains out of molehills. They've said he's "struggled" not "he should be cut." I think they have some perspective and ideas as to how guys are doing compared to others. I mean, they've been saying Babs has been overwhelmed and there's no way he'd make the 53. Maybe they're just biased against him, too?

How often is he actually getting beat? I don't think that's clear from what's been reported. He's inevitably going to miss some blocks during practices. The DEs are talented. Reporting on the misses feeds into doubts about Kalil's capabilities but do a few misses paint an accurate picture of Kalil's overall performance thus far in camp?

If he hadn't allowed anybody to get past him last week, we'd be able to fret about Griffen, Hunter and the pass rush. It's camp! I just don't get worked up about it.

The problem for me is when a guy is getting beat repeatedly or "too often" as he did during the last couple of seasons. I understand the point of getting beat on occasion and that's going to happen (well, maybe. I doubt a guy like Joe Thomas gets beat very often by Randy Starks or a rookie, even in camp, but I'll concede the point). I might be way off, but I don't think it's that hard to see a guy "engaged in a good battle" (for example perhaps Loadholt vs. Robison) than a guy that's losing more battles than you'd like (Kalil vs. Barr, Hunter, Griffen). We also know what we have in Griffen, so I wouldn't really be all that worried if Griffen wasn't getting to the QB as often as Kalil was winning.

I don't expect Kalil to be perfect, but I don't it's too much to ask that in a single team session or scrimmage he doesn't give up a would-be sack. If he's giving up a few would-be sacks with a small sample size (one would think, individually, breakout, team and one-one- sessions are fewer snaps vs. a normal game) then I'm not sure how we can expect better things out of him with more snaps.

My main concern at this time of year is that players stay healthy.

We share that concern.

I suppose I just want Kalil to improve and am looking for even the smallest signs of that.

[Mothman]

I suppose, but does seeing a guy getting beat one-on-one (repeatedly) really take an offensive coordinator to spot that the guy may not be competent (average) starting NFL left tackle material? At what point does it become clear that, yeah, this is a guy that has no business starting at left tackle...

I'm not sure how to answer that other than to say if/when it reaches that point, I think we'll hear plenty about it from the professional beat writers and we'll probably hear about it from Mike Zimmer or Norv Turner as well.

The problem for me is when a guy is getting beat repeatedly or "too often" as he did during the last couple of seasons. I understand the point of getting beat on occasion and that's going to happen (well, maybe. I doubt a guy like Joe Thomas gets beat very often by Randy Starks or a rookie, even in camp, but I'll concede the point). I might be way off, but I don't think it's that hard to see a guy "engaged in a good battle" (for example perhaps Loadholt vs. Robison) than a guy that's losing more battles than you'd like (Kalil vs. Barr, Hunter, Griffen). We also know what we have in Griffen, so I wouldn't really be all that worried if Griffen wasn't getting to the QB as often as Kalil was winning.

I don't expect Kalil to be perfect, but I don't it's too much to ask that in a single team session or scrimmage he doesn't give up a would-be sack. If he's giving up a few would-be sacks with a small sample size (one would think, individually, breakout, team and one-one- sessions are fewer snaps vs. a normal game) then I'm not sure how we can expect better things out of him with more snaps.

We share that concern.

I suppose I just want Kalil to improve and am looking for even the smallest signs of that.

I understand. Personally, I think we already saw signs of it during the second half of last season and I suspect we'll see signs of it again this preseason.

I'm sorry if that's not a very satisfying answer. I just don't know what else to say. I really don't worry much about reports coming out of training camp.

[fiestavike]

Moth, I think if there was noise coming from at least the coaches about Kalil playing well, one could more thoroughly suspend judgement, but its been pretty much crickets from his coaches and he's getting killed in reports from camp as well. A guy like Patterson is getting mixed reviews, but is at least getting praise from teammates and coaches. I think nobody wants to say anything about Matt Kalil because they have nothing nice to say. Not saying that's a fact, just reading the tea leaves so to speak. I hope he is playing really well and makes my skepticism look foolish.

[jackal]

IMO(which means little) Fusco was moved to LG to help Kalil.. Johnson left Kalil on an island missing
blocks. I believe Zimmer and company saw this last year and dumped Johnson.

If they are willing to move Fusco to the other side to support Kalil.. means they want to
keep him. The blog guys and beat writer guys have to write something..They know the fan base,
is consumed with the OL (especially Kalil). My guess is until Kalil can play in actual games and
perform, at high level..He will get more than his share of critics...

[dead_poet]

Starting to think Mr. Munnerlyn is one of these players. Something's going on here.

Captain Munnerlyn has spent enough time standing around on the sidelines this summer to raise the eyebrows of Vikings beat reporters. The veteran cornerback’s situation became even more curious Sunday night when he didn’t play a single snap against the Steelers in the Hall of Fame Game.

As expected, it was Xavier Rhodes and Terence Newman who started at cornerback in the base defense. But when the Vikings needed their top nickel package on the only third-down play the starting group faced, it was first-round pick Trae Waynes who got the nod, not Munnerlyn.

The starters were pulled after the first drive, but Munnerlyn didn’t play.

So yesterday morning, Zimmer was asked why Munnerlyn only watched.

“That’s a good question,” Zimmer said. “We planned on him playing the 42 and Newman playing the nickel on third down and we didn’t get any in that series. Then I pulled the rest of the guys out.”

But, as noted above, the Vikings did use the nickel once on that first drive.

So I tracked down Munnerlyn as he came off the field Tuesday afternoon and asked him if he was given an explanation of why he didn’t play.

“You’ve got to ask Coach Zim,” Munnerlyn said.

Munnerlyn was told that Zimmer had explained that the plan was for him to play in the first-team nickel package, but that it didn’t work out that way.

“You’ve got to ask Coach, man. I don’t know,” he said.

Maybe Munnerlyn was told to defer to his head coach, but it was odd to hear Munnerlyn, one of the best talkers on the team, be so tight-lipped.

It also has been odd seeing Munnerlyn’s practice reps get significantly reduced, especially since he insists he feels fine right now after missing most of the spring workouts with a foot injury. “I’m good,” he says.

http://www.startribune.com/munnerlyn-sa ... 321563921/

[Norv Zimmer]

I have also heard that captain has a very good chance of being cut.

[84BreaksAnkles]

Personally, I put very little stock in camp reports, especially those from the amateur press, who seem to be doing the most commenting/criticizing when it comes to Kalil this summer. If he's truly healthy, I think he's likely to play well again, although there's certainly no guarantee that will be the case. We'll learn a lot more when we get to see him perform in some games.

Agreed Moth. Yet there is a give and take here..
Multiple sources converge on the same outcome- which is that Everson Griffen outclasses Matt. I would conservatively estimate that 80% of the feedback I hear from their one-on-one's & team work is that Everson was destroying him regularly, especially on the inside moves (That's why we brought Fusco over to LG).

So does this mean that Everson is hopefully a top-10 Pass Rusher, and we should expect Kalil, let alone any Tackle to struggle against him?
Or does it mean that Matt Kalil can't even handle our best guy, thus will struggle mightily against opposing teams best pass rushers?

I tend to believe the former

[Pondering Her Percy]

I'm far from convinced that last line is true but time will tell.

I agree. Here is a video off of vikings.com breaks down Kalil's game http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... 13b43023a3

[dead_poet]

Agreed Moth. Yet there is a give and take here..
Multiple sources converge on the same outcome- which is that Everson Griffen outclasses Matt. I would conservatively estimate that 80% of the feedback I hear from their one-on-one's & team work is that Everson was destroying him regularly, especially on the inside moves (That's why we brought Fusco over to LG).

So does this mean that Everson is hopefully a top-10 Pass Rusher, and we should expect Kalil, let alone any Tackle to struggle against him?
Or does it mean that Matt Kalil can't even handle our best guy, thus will struggle mightily against opposing teams best pass rushers?

I tend to believe the former

FWIW his last couple of practices have been much better from what I've read.

[fiestavike]

FWIW his last couple of practices have been much better from what I've read.

I'm glad to finally hear something positive!

[84BreaksAnkles]

I went back and watched every sack of Ted this year..

Matt Kalil is not THE problem.. We were devastated with injuries across the OL.
Phil going down killed us, especially after fusco went down. Leaving a gaping chasmic void on the right side.
Kalil usually didn't get completely worked by one guy, although he did on occasion.. (Jared Allen, Ziggy Ansah, Cameron Wake, Jerry Hughes, etc..)
But Teams usually tried to exploit charley johnson and stunted extra men to the left side, because the right side of our line didn't need any extra bodies providing pressure to get through.. So they threw all of their extra resources towards the Kalil, Johnson, Sullivan side of the line and often times it made Matt look really bad.

[jackal]

But Teams usually tried to exploit charley johnson and stunted extra men to the left side, because the right side of our line didn't need any extra bodies providing pressure to get through.. So they threw all of their extra resources towards the Kalil, Johnson, Sullivan side of the line and often times it made Matt look really bad.

I often thought Johnson's inconsistency really hurt Matt. Players would be blitzing through both sides of Johnson and
he would Wiff on blocks. Kalil would have to hesitate and choose which player was the biggest threat to Teddy.

[84BreaksAnkles]

Kalil would have to hesitate and choose which player was the biggest threat to Teddy.

Not only that, but our protection from the backfield was more often slid to the right side, leaving Kalil and Charles to deal with 3 guys at times- And in the event either got beat, it was a clear path straight to Teddy.

[jackal]

Not only that, but our protection from the backfield was more often slid to the right side, leaving Kalil and Charles to deal with 3 guys at times- And in the event either got beat, it was a clear path straight to Teddy.

Loadholt looked good coming into camp.. from what I saw ...