Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Leafman
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

Post by Leafman »

mosscarter wrote:chilly played his cards well? what on earth does that mean? he landed favre who carried him to the nfc championship (and favre actually came because bevell was here), and then he played his cards so well that he put 12 freaking guys in the huddle when we were getting ready to kick a fg to go to the superbowl. makes a lot of sense.
It means he was a sub-par coach who kept his job longer than he should have because he played his cards very well. Which does, in fact, make a lot of sense.

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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Leafman wrote:Yes, I'm calling out others on this board for their extremely uninformed opinions on how professionals do their jobs in the NFL. But hey, it's the internet. So I just sit back, grab my popcorn, and laugh ... it is great entertainment.
If you're going to call people out for what you consider their extremely uninformed opinions on how professionals do their jobs in the NFL, please try to be more specific with your criticisms than you were with the comment about this board being notorious for "armchair beer-swillin fans critiquing professional general managers". If you think people are clueless about what they're discussing, this board is also a place where you can share any knowledge you possess that might inform and enlighten. Sit back, munch popcorn and laugh if you'd like but that's not what you did in this thread.
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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mosscarter wrote:berrian, cook, and tjack all stunk. define the word "potential." because, as demi pointed out as well as others, i'm sick of hearing about players that have so called "potential." i'd like to see players that can actually play. chris cook started at corner for how many seasons and didn't have ONE incerception and berrian was one of the most overpaid signings i've ever seen. this franchise has seen some of the greatest players to ever play the game: carter, moss, peterson, tarkenton to mention a few, but lately we've seen some of the worst. maybe demi wouldn't b*tch as much is there was something to actually cheer about. my only hope is teddy doesn't get hurt because this team is a joke. chilly played his cards well? what on earth does that mean? he landed favre who carried him to the nfc championship (and favre actually came because bevell was here), and then he played his cards so well that he put 12 freaking guys in the huddle when we were getting ready to kick a fg to go to the superbowl. makes a lot of sense.

sorry somehow this posted twice
Maybe Cook didn't play up to his potential, but at least he was a good character guy :wallbang:

Seriously, he's a symbol of much of what's wrong with this franchise -- every bit as much of a symbol as all the draft picks who appear to be busts from the beginning.
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Demi wrote: Which should be a concern after the recent drafts...we lost certain positions, and spend our picks/offseason replacing them. How are we ever going to get ahead enough to compete when we are busy filling holes year by year instead of finding ways to address the upcoming needs ahead of time? Look at the Packers with their QB position, Indy, and heck even the Patriots now drafting a couple guys the last two years to try and be ready when Brady finally moves on for whatever reason.
Exactly, that's what I'm getting at in terms of roster management. They need to have a plan for the whole roster. It needs to be logical and it needs to involve good depth because backups become starters every week in the NFL.

Each decision comes with consequences. It may be worth taking a chance on a player like Harvin in the draft but it hurts the team when they spend a few years developing what they hope will be a key player for them and then have to trade and replace him. If you keep giving a relatively unproductive, problematic player like Jerome Simpson one-year contracts, he takes up a roster spot that could be occupied by a player without those troubles, perhaps a young receiver who would be a valuable contributor to the team right now instead of a free agent who kept blowing opportunities with dumb off-field behavior.

I understand and approved of the trade up to draft Patterson and I still don't think it was a bad move. They drafted talent and potential over developed skill and bet on their ability to develop it. It was looking great at the end of last season. It doesn't look as good right now. In a month, it may look like a great idea again. :) However, I understand the criticism of their decision too. They could have used the picks they traded on other players. They could have drafted a more skilled receiver like Keenan Allen and that might have made more sense as an aid to the young QB they were trying to develop at the time (Ponder) or to the young QB they ended up drafting when Ponder didn't work out.

I'm not saying the choice they made with Patterson was good or bad (the jury is still out on that) but I do think that choice of raw talent over more developed skill comes with consequences and it serves as an example of the choices a GM needs to consider when trying to assemble a good team. They have to consider how all the parts will fit together in the present and as they develop.

Tough job... !
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Mothman wrote:If you're going to call people out for what you consider their extremely uninformed opinions on how professionals do their jobs in the NFL, please try to be more specific with your criticisms than you were with the comment about this board being notorious for "armchair beer-swillin fans critiquing professional general managers". If you think people are clueless about what they're discussing, this board is also a place where you can share any knowledge you possess that might inform and enlighten. Sit back, munch popcorn and laugh if you'd like but that's not what you did in this thread.
I never claimed to have such knowledge.

There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief they know everything.
There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief they know a lot about a lot.
There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief that the knowledge they have is superior to others' knowledge.
And finally there are those whose opinions are informed by the knowledge of what they don't know.

Meaningful discussion is advanced further by those in the last category more than it can be advanced by those in the former three, and that's as specific as I'll get, because calling everyone out specifically in every thread would be a full time job. I pick my spots. Not to say there isn't intrinsic value in pure entertainment, which is one of the main benefits of reading this board along with the very wise and informed contributions of a few posters whom I very much enjoy following.

Munchin and laughin.... :D

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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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PurpleKoolaid wrote: No, I don't care what people argue about here. But when it upsets someone if I post negative things, just foe me. It works for me. Less tension, stress. And I get to read the good thread here that have football meaning. We have another year of a weak roster. That upsets me, and I want the powers that be to fix it. Not promote, what I feel is, one of the leading contributes, to it.

And If I started throwing around how ignorant your posts were, how would that make ya feel? I find it pretty close to a personal attack, which is what some people do when they are losing an argument.
By no means was it a personal attack nor was it even directed to you so I'm not sure why you're getting so upset over it.

However as for the post itself, sorry if I didn't word it correctly, but it's pretty laughable/nonsensical to say that Smith is the only "good starter" on this team. To the point where it's not even worth arguing. Hence why I'm not really arguing it. Maybe those words are a little less harsh for you. I think we all know that only about 2 people on here would actually agree with that statement and it's a big reason why I consistently question those members opinions
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Leafman wrote:I never claimed to have such knowledge.

There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief they know everything.
There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief they know a lot about a lot.
There are those whose opinions are informed by the belief that the knowledge they have is superior to others' knowledge.
And finally there are those whose opinions are informed by the knowledge of what they don't know.

Meaningful discussion is advanced further by those in the last category more than it can be advanced by those in the former three, and that's as specific as I'll get, because calling everyone out specifically in every thread would be a full time job. I pick my spots.
Whether you call everyone out specifically in every thread or just pick your spots, please try to be specific and constructive with your criticisms because that's far more likely to advance meaningful discussion than a snide comment about clueless, armchair beer-swillin fans. A broad, generalized insult is still an insult and there's no need to resort to that. We're trying to encourage respectful discourse here.
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Mothman wrote: Whether you call everyone out specifically in every thread or just pick your spots, please try to be specific and constructive with your criticisms because that's far more likely to advance meaningful discussion than a snide comment about clueless, armchair beer-swillin fans. A broad, generalized insult is still an insult and there's no need to resort to that. We're trying to encourage respectful discourse here.
I think Pondering Her Percy stated the specifics very clearly ... the poster's statement in question that Harrison Smith is the only talented starter on the entire team is clearly ludicrous. I simply extended that specific criticism to a general statement which is true. You may not like generalities, but the truth is still the truth ... most of the people on this board posting opinions about the job performance of NFL professionals know very little about the intracacies of being an NFL professional, just as my relatives at Thanksgiving know very little about Middle East politics. Not that there's anything wrong with opining about that which one knows very little ... but it's still worthy of note, even if some choose to label it an insult.

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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

Post by mansquatch »

Pass the Popcorn!


Jim, IMO Leafman is just stating what most of us dance around when we make a post to push the conversation in what we think is a "more rational" direction. If he is guilty of anything, it is being blunt, of course some of us might consider that a positive. I know I do.


Jim on your post on having a plan for the roster. I think they do have a plan, but as any military commander will tell you, all plans end as soons as the first shot is fired. Quite simply, you can have a great plan, but there is no guarrantee when selecting NFL players. Matt Kalil is looking shakey right now and he was a consensus top 5 pick. Tom Brady is a first ballot HOF QB and he was a 6th round pick. When there is that much variability in the selection process, how can you truly plan?

Consider the draft itself. You might have this grand plan and even know the types of athletes you want. What if the draft is shallow for the type of guys you want? Then what? This is an uncontrollable macro factor, but it has to be dealt with.

On top of the draft, if a coaching regime is tossed out every 4-5 seasons, you get issues with guys fitting into a scheme. An example for the Vikings is none other than Jared Allen. We got 6 seasons of pro bowl play out of our 2008 1st round pick. Now he is playing for the Bears as our scheme shifted and he wanted a fresh start. Our 2008 "draft pick" is gone. Free Agency and Scheme Change are also not entirely possible to plan for. (FA is to some extent via contract extensions.)

I think they need a plan, but I also think a lot of it is stability in the Management Team, which starts with the philosophy of the ownership as well as their making a good hire. I think Childress and Frasier were both bad hires for the Wilf's. I think Zimmer will be different, but it is way too early to tell. Regardless, if this is not stable, then plannig a roster is even harder.

I do no think there is a good answer here. I do think we are exactly where we deserve to be in terms of the roster given almost 15 years of poor coaching hires and bad ownership decisisons. The positives for me are that I think the Wilf's finally got it together with the Zimmer hire. Bridgewater also gives a lot of hope, we haven't seen a guy with this kind of upside since Culpepper. Is the coaching staff right for him? Can the GM fill in the pieces quickly? Will ownership have the patience to keep it together?
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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mansquatch wrote:Jim, IMO Leafman is just stating what most of us dance around when we make a post to push the conversation in what we think is a "more rational" direction. If he is guilty of anything, it is being blunt, of course some of us might consider that a positive. I know I do.
Thank you for your perspective but I don't want to discuss it further in this thread, which needs to get back on topic, so I'll simply say I think the post in question went too far and broke the board's rules.

Regarding the rest of your post: it was a good read. thanks. I'll respond to it in more detail later. I'm out of time to post this morning!
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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You have had a few hours. I DEMAND A RESPONSE!

:rofl:
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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Demi wrote: Toby: Childress 3 months before he was fired Chris Cook TJoke End of 2009 season talking about Ray Edwards Bernard Berrian in 2009 And you're calling out other people on having a single clue. :confused:
Wow dude. You actually did RESEARCH to find out where Leafman has been "wrong" over the years?

Hmmm, let me try that.
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

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J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wow dude. You actually did RESEARCH to find out where Leafman has been "wrong" over the years?

Hmmm, let me try that.
Wow. It really really works!
:rofl: *Crunch, crunch* Damn, this popcorn is tasty.

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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

Post by Cliff »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wow dude. You actually did RESEARCH to find out where Leafman has been "wrong" over the years?

Hmmm, let me try that.
Wow. It really really works!
I love it!

Take note everyone ... the message board doesn't forget. You've likely had opinions in the past that were wrong (that's the thing with opinions, ain't it?) ... try to go easy on those whose opinions you think are wrong now, odds are you're not perfect either. :wink:
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Re: Rick Spielman's Draft Record

Post by Pondering Her Percy »

J. Kapp 11 wrote: Wow dude. You actually did RESEARCH to find out where Leafman has been "wrong" over the years?

Hmmm, let me try that.
Wow. It really really works!
:lol: :lol: :lol: burnedddd
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