Wilfs will send a message

[Mothman]

Sorry Moth, I'm not agreeing on that front. At some point the coaches have to be culpable.

That's what I meant by "There are some coaching issues".

They had input on some of the talent currently on the field as Spielman wasn't the full blown GM until the 2012 draft.

Also, it is up the coaches to "coach up" guys as well as put them in positions to succeed. I do not feel like either is occuring at level that is competitive in the NFL right now.

I agree that it's up to the coaches to "coach up" plays but I also think there are limits to what coaches can do. If a player doesn't have what it takes to cut it in the NFL or has significant deficiencies in his game, a coach can only do so much. Players aren't robots to be programmed. I see no reason for Spielman, the man in charge of player personnel, to be let off the hook when the starting back 7 has been so bad. There are coaching issues at work but there are clearly talent issues as well. There's more than enough blame to go around.

As for putting players in position to succeed: I haven't seen the whole game yet but I certainly saw plenty of situations where players were in position to succeed and they failed. A few examples:

Sanford drops an easy INT on the Panthers first scoring drive. He was in position to succeed and he blew it.

Later in the same drive, Greenway sacked Newton on third down and that would have ended the drive but Cook was called for defensive holding. The coaches put the defense in position to succeed and the players failed. Ditto for the 4th and 1 Carolina converted on that drive. The Vikes players were simply out-muscled on that play.

How many players missed tackles on the 10 yard shovel pass for a TD? I counted at least 3, maybe 4. Again, the players were in position to make a tackle. They failed to make it.

The coaches didn't throw the INTs either.

I'm not going to sit here and claim the coaching staff bears no responsibility for that debacle of a loss or for the team's 1-4 record because that's not true. However, the players play the games and the Vikings have talent issues, not just coaching issues. You're right that at some point, the coaches have to be culpable but so does the GM.

[losperros]

I agree that it's up to the coaches to "coach up" plays but I also think there are limits to what coaches can do. If a player doesn't have what it takes to cut it in the NFL or has significant deficiencies in his game, a coach can only do so much. Players aren't robots to be programmed. I see no reason for Spielman, the man in charge of player personnel, to be let off the hook when the starting back 7 has been so bad. There are coaching issues at work but there are clearly talent issues as well. There's more than enough blame to go around.

As for putting players in position to succeed: I haven't seen the whole game yet but I certainly saw plenty of situations where players were in position to succeed and they failed. A few examples:

Sanford drops an easy INT on the Panthers first scoring drive. He was in position to succeed and he blew it.

Later in the same drive, Greenway sacked Newton on third down and that would have ended the drive but Cook was called for defensive holding. The coaches put the defense in position to succeed and the players failed. Ditto for the 4th and 1 Carolina converted on that drive. The Vikes players were simply out-muscled on that play.

How many players missed tackles on the 10 yard shovel pass for a TD? I counted at least 3, maybe 4. Again, the players were in position to make a tackle. They failed to make it.

The coaches didn't throw the INTs either.

I'm not going to sit here and claim the coaching staff bears no responsibility for that debacle of a loss or for the team's 1-4 record because that's not true. However, the players play the games and the Vikings have talent issues, not just coaching issues. You're right that at some point, the coaches have to be culpable but so does the GM.

I agree with all that you're saying, Jim. But let's keep in mind regarding Spielman that players like Cook and Robinson were 2nd and 3rd round picks, respectively. They played better in college than they play now and seemed like good picks at the time. Heck, they both played better last year as pros than they are playing now. Maybe Spielman's biggest error was losing Winfield, but I have no way of proving that. I guess I'm not convinced that he's a big problem, especially with some of the porous execution going on during the game.

Anyway, it seems to me that this team is on the verge of total collapse and nothing really seems to be right. Even the parts that should work (AD, Rudolph, the 4 WRs) are victimized by incompetency around them. From the beginning of the season this team has not played well as a unit. The players look like chickens running around with their heads cut off.

[mansquatch]

And lets not forget this was coming out of a bye week. They had more time to prepare for this game than any other since Week 1. At this point is it unfair to expect to see guys getting better not worse?

Jim, I'm zeroing in on the defense. The offense has problems, there is not doubt, but our defense is getting pummeled week in and week out. I don't feel like it is because they are stuck on the field and get tired so much as they just can't get off the field. They are not ready for prime time. Why is that? How do they play as well as they did last year and this year look utterly horrible? Did Winfield bring that much to the table? I'm just not seeing it.

[mondry]

I agree with all that you're saying, Jim. But let's keep in mind regarding Spielman that players like Cook and Robinson were 2nd and 3rd round picks, respectively. They played better in college than they play now and seemed like good picks at the time. Heck, they both played better last year as pros than they are playing now. Maybe Spielman's biggest error was losing Winfield, but I have no way of proving that. I guess I'm not convinced that he's a big problem, especially with some of the porous execution going on during the game.

Anyway, it seems to me that this team is on the verge of total collapse and nothing really seems to be right. Even the parts that should work (AD, Rudolph, the 4 WRs) are victimized by incompetency around them. From the beginning of the season this team has not played well as a unit. The players look like chickens running around with their heads cut off.

Right, it just doesn't hold enough water to put the majority of the problem on the players. If we had a top notch system and top notch coaches you aren't 30th in the league at something so the question is, do we really have the 30th worst talent on defense? I don't think so! I think if you have a top notch system and top notch coaches you should STILL be better than 30th because your units should be better than the units without top notch coaches and similar or less talent.

That's not to say we have ample talent because we don't, but again I don't think that falls on the players. The players are who they are and I think you have to look at the defensive coaches because at some point it was their decision to push for the Henderson's, Sanfords, Mitchells, and Robinson's and make them their starters. If you're a strong defensive coach with a top notch scheme and play calling then surely you can take a look at the practice field and see Josh Robinson isn't cutting it right? It's that kind of decision making that even goes back to training camp. A good coach should have been able to see how bad Robinson was struggling and made the decision to give Sherels (who looks like the better player as of now) the starting reps at slot corner.

And now for the 2nd time in what, 5 years our players are questioning the coaching, decision making, and play calling so much that we're about to lose the locker room again? I just have a hard time believing that the players would turn on the coaches like that AGAIN.

[Mothman]

I agree with all that you're saying, Jim. But let's keep in mind regarding Spielman that players like Cook and Robinson were 2nd and 3rd round picks, respectively. They played better in college than they play now and seemed like good picks at the time. Heck, they both played better last year as pros than they are playing now. Maybe Spielman's biggest error was losing Winfield, but I have no way of proving that. I guess I'm not convinced that he's a big problem, especially with some of the porous execution going on during the game.

I'm not convinced he's a big problem either, Craig. I didn't mean to give that impression. I'm just saying he bears some responsibility for what's going on.
Overall, I think Spielman has done some good things since becoming GM but this IS his roster. These aren't his coaches though so maybe he should be given a crack at hiring their replacements.

Anyway, it seems to me that this team is on the verge of total collapse and nothing really seems to be right. Even the parts that should work (AD, Rudolph, the 4 WRs) are victimized by incompetency around them. From the beginning of the season this team has not played well as a unit. The players look like chickens running around with their heads cut off.

They're a mess and despite talent issues, I think that has to reflect a lack of leadership.

[Mothman]

And lets not forget this was coming out of a bye week. They had more time to prepare for this game than any other since Week 1. At this point is it unfair to expect to see guys getting better not worse?

Jim, I'm zeroing in on the defense. The offense has problems, there is not doubt, but our defense is getting pummeled week in and week out. I don't feel like it is because they are stuck on the field and get tired so much as they just can't get off the field. They are not ready for prime time. Why is that? How do they play as well as they did last year and this year look utterly horrible? Did Winfield bring that much to the table? I'm just not seeing it.

He brought a lot, on the field and off. Just look at where the most victimized member of this current defense plays.

It's not just Winfield though. there were signs of these problems last year (there was more than one game where the defense collapsed or struggled mightily to get off the field) and one of the things that helped cover them up (along with Winfield) was the ball control offense. This year, they've been unable to keep that going.

Who knows? Maybe Brinkley brought more to the defense than we gave him credit for too...

[thatguy]

Maybe Spielman's biggest error was losing Winfield, but I have no way of proving that. I guess I'm not convinced that he's a big problem, especially with some of the porous execution going on during the game.

It may have played a part in this mess, but the defense's current issues are bigger than any one player.

[Mothman]

Right, it just doesn't hold enough water to put the majority of the problem on the players. If we had a top notch system and top notch coaches you aren't 30th in the league at something so the question is, do we really have the 30th worst talent on defense? I don't think so! I think if you have a top notch system and top notch coaches you should STILL be better than 30th because your units should be better than the units without top notch coaches and similar or less talent.

That's not to say we have ample talent because we don't, but again I don't think that falls on the players. The players are who they are and I think you have to look at the defensive coaches because at some point it was their decision to push for the Henderson's, Sanfords, Mitchells, and Robinson's and make them their starters. If you're a strong defensive coach with a top notch scheme and play calling then surely you can take a look at the practice field and see Josh Robinson isn't cutting it right? It's that kind of decision making that even goes back to training camp. A good coach should have been able to see how bad Robinson was struggling and made the decision to give Sherels (who looks like the better player as of now) the starting reps at slot corner.

Okay, but at what point does the GM enter that picture? Spielman cut Winfield (Frazier certainly didn't ask for that) and who did he give Frazier to replace him? Robinson. They didn't re-sign Brinkley to play the middle (I was fine with that) but who did Spielman give Frazier to man that position?

As I said, there's more than enough blame to go around.

[mondry]

Okay, but at what point does the GM enter that picture? Spielman cut Winfield (Frazier certainly didn't ask for that) and who did he give Frazier to replace him? Robinson. They didn't re-sign Brinkley to play the middle (I was fine with that) but who did Spielman give Frazier to man that position?

As I said, there's more than enough blame to go around.

Well I'll be the first to say I don't have insider knowledge on the subject. With that said, I feel like this has always been a collaboration although Spielman makes the final say now. What I mean by that is, I'm sure they talked pre-draft / free agency and had many many discussions on what their plan and course of action should be. I don't know if it went down like this but if I'm Spielman and I'm talking to Frazier and I'm asking questions like "alright it looks like we won't be able to resign Brinkley and Winfield's salary is really weighing on us, do you think we'd be okay moving on without them?" "Can you run your defense without them?" "Do you feel comfortable going in with Henderson, Mitchell, Sanford, Guion, and of course Robinson in a starting role if we let winfield go?"

I imagine Frazier said yes to all of it, he's never seemed to think we might just not have the talent to do well. In fact I bet Frazier was completely fine with the roster he's been given and in the beginning of the year if we asked him "do you think this defense can be in the top half of the league?" I bet he himself would have said "without a doubt, Jim." Now maybe I'm wrong about that but in a nutshell, that's part of the problem if Frazier's telling Spielman he can do the job with those guys and he can't.

I really doubt Spielman went "Rambo" and said "these are the moves I want to make so you're on your own with this group."

[Orion]

spielman's biggest mistake was drafting ponder first round.

[losperros]

It may have played a part in this mess, but the defense's current issues are bigger than any one player.

Yes, very true. There are plenty of weak links in the chain right now. Many more than any strong links.

[Mothman]

Well I'll be the first to say I don't have insider knowledge on the subject. With that said, I feel like this has always been a collaboration although Spielman makes the final say now. What I mean by that is, I'm sure they talked pre-draft / free agency and had many many discussions on what their plan and course of action should be. I don't know if it went down like this but if I'm Spielman and I'm talking to Frazier and I'm asking questions like "alright it looks like we won't be able to resign Brinkley and Winfield's salary is really weighing on us, do you think we'd be okay moving on without them?" "Can you run your defense without them?" "Do you feel comfortable going in with Henderson, Mitchell, Sanford, Guion, and of course Robinson in a starting role if we let winfield go?"

I imagine Frazier said yes to all of it, he's never seemed to think we might just not have the talent to do well. In fact I bet Frazier was completely fine with the roster he's been given and in the beginning of the year if we asked him "do you think this defense can be in the top half of the league?" I bet he himself would have said "without a doubt, Jim." Now maybe I'm wrong about that but in a nutshell, that's part of the problem if Frazier's telling Spielman he can do the job with those guys and he can't.

I really doubt Spielman went "Rambo" and said "these are the moves I want to make so you're on your own with this group."

That's not really what I'm suggesting anyway, although in Winfield's case, considering how that reportedly went down, it could be that Frazier was as surprised by the cut as Winfield. I imagine he and Spielman had discussed the possibility but who knows? The real point is that if we're going to say at some point the coaching staff has to be culpable then it makes sense to look at the guy in charge of the roster too. If this roster is truly a collaborative effort that's all the more reason to take a hard look at Spielman.

This isn't a call for the GM's job. I'm just saying, if the team is really so bad that heads should start rolling then it's problems might start higher up than the head coach.

The Vikes have been very competitive this year prior to that Panthers loss. To me, the real test of the coaching staff and players will be how they react to it against the Giants and for the rest of the season.

[mansquatch]

Jim,

I agree in general with your take, however, I think one thing deserves consideration and that is the fact that Frasier was the coach before Spielman was made king. Spielman was certainly part of the decision making prior to becoming full GM but it is debateable as to just how much Frasier was Rick's guy.

My thing on the players is we've seen many of these guys play better as recently as last year. I can see a few guys having sophmore slumps or re-adjustments. Some guys get hurt, some guys the league adapts to, etc. However, IMO a lot of the NFL is much more mental than we give it credit for and IMO, when a team is just not competitive as our defensive unit currently is not it stinks of something far more systemic. That is why I think this is a coaching issue.

They can adjust to one guy having a tough season either by scheming around him or benching him. Right now we are seeing most of the entire defense just not playing up to snuff. Furthermore we saw the vast majority of this unit playing at a competitive level last season. This just screams of morale and/or schematic issues IMO. Frankly, I think a big part of it is the league and it's QBs have seen the Cover 2 for over a decade and if you have nothing new to offer, then offenses know what to do. I personally wish Frasier would challenge a lot more Jim Johnson and a lot less Tony Dungy, but that is just me.

I'm not in MGMT at the Vikings, but my guess is the GM doesn't worry about this kind of stuff, or if they he does, his action item is to go talk to the HC and tell him to fix his locker room. This stuff is very hands on and that is the purview of the coaching staff.

[Mothman]

Jim,

I agree in general with your take, however, I think one thing deserves consideration and that is the fact that Frasier was the coach before Spielman was made king. Spielman was certainly part of the decision making prior to becoming full GM but it is debateable as to just how much Frasier was Rick's guy.

It's certainly possible that Spielman has been saddled with a coach he doesn't ant.

My thing on the players is we've seen many of these guys play better as recently as last year. I can see a few guys having sophmore slumps or re-adjustments. Some guys get hurt, some guys the league adapts to, etc. However, IMO a lot of the NFL is much more mental than we give it credit for and IMO, when a team is just not competitive as our defensive unit currently is not it stinks of something far more systemic. That is why I think this is a coaching issue.

They can adjust to one guy having a tough season either by scheming around him or benching him. Right now we are seeing most of the entire defense just not playing up to snuff. Furthermore we saw the vast majority of this unit playing at a competitive level last season. This just screams of morale and/or schematic issues IMO. Frankly, I think a big part of it is the league and it's QBs have seen the Cover 2 for over a decade and if you have nothing new to offer, then offenses know what to do. I personally wish Frasier would challenge a lot more Jim Johnson and a lot less Tony Dungy, but that is just me.

I'm not in MGMT at the Vikings, but my guess is the GM doesn't worry about this kind of stuff, or if they he does, his action item is to go talk to the HC and tell him to fix his locker room. This stuff is very hands on and that is the purview of the coaching staff.

I know what you're saying but some of it just doesn't ring true to me. I don't think offenses know any more about attacking the Cover 2 this season than they knew a year ago. I've said for a long time that I'd be all for a new scheme. I think we're just drawing some different conclusions from the same evidence and they're not wholly different conclusions, it's more a matter of emphasis. You're saying the performance of the defense last season vs. this season suggests morale and/or schematic issues. To me, it suggests underachieving players and a few changes in personnel. I have no idea if one answer or the other is right. Maybe they're both right. Maybe age is catching up to players like Greenway, Allen, Williams and Robison (I hope not since they just re-signed the latter). The drop in performance from Winfield to Robinson has clearly been precipitous. Maybe the drop in quality from Brinkley (an experienced MLB) to Henderson (new to the position) is greater than it seems on the surface. We saw this defense get manhandled and embarrassed at times last year too. Maybe being a year older and a little weaker at a few spots has been enough to send it over the edge.

When it comes to the coaching, I'm not convinced the problem is schematic as much as it has to do with playcalling and decision-making. I'm on board with the idea of developing players "in action" but if they're hurting the team too much, at some point they have to be taken off the field.

I'm with you on wanting to see a little more Jim johnson and a little less Tony Dungy in the playcalling.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Winfield is one of my favor players ever, but I think 36 year old Winfield is being severely overrated on these boards.

Winfield would help us some, but I don't think he's a difference maker. Seattle cut him for a reason. He's still great against the run and shutting down those short passes but his coverage skills have deteriorated the past few years.

Really? OFC he would have helped us, big time. Have you seen the replacements for the nickel and slot corners? And Friazer in his stupidity is still trying to force feed Robinson in learning how to play his position. It may be the biggest reason our secondary is so bad. It was a bad move by Spielman, it should have been handled different, and we needed a presence like Winfield on the field and in the locker room. And Seattle dropped him cause they have one of the best secondary's ive seen in the NFL, I don't know why they picked him up. He was not only a good tackling cover 2 CB he was an awesome blitzing CB. No one else on the D has a clue how to blitz.