Dilfer: 'Christian Ponder is Elvis Grbac'

[yezzir]

I know you were being facetious, but when it comes to assessing QBs, it sure seems like he does. He's called the ball on more than a few.

True. Dilfer bothers me, but, you don't have to have been a good QB to have solid arguments/predictions.

[Demi]

You ask me to come up with options other than what we should have done three years ago, I mention a few, and you spend a paragraph focused on one word of the entire post. How about instead of squelching discussion by focusing on that, you discuss the specific response to the suggestion you made and the options I posted?...

Dilfer bothers me as well, but he was pretty spot on in a few cases...

[dkoby]

Only people who consider themselves lovers/haters are offended by such comments.

[Raptorman]

not to mention that if a guy who played over a decade in the league and won a superbowl doesn't have the pedigree to have an opinion on qb's then what the hell does that say about all of us experts here?

That's the point. His opinion is no better than anyone else's. It's an opinion.

From a Packer fan to the Packer president at the time. 1959

Dear Dominic Olejniczak, President of the Green Bay Packers,.

I'm writing to you to offer advice on how to turn around your once proud franchise. I believe it begins with a switch at quarterback. Please indulge me for a few minutes, as I explain my reasons to you.
..................Enough's enough: it's time to bench Bart Starr.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=5008

We all have opinions. Not saying Dilfer's or anyone is right or wrong. But most QB's that come into this league that are perennial winners usually have some time on the bench or at least a few bad years before they turn the corner. Very few that come in and win right off the bat. And those that do, well you have to have a losing season to get one. And then he might not be the one that is a winner. Of the QB's drafted with Ponder, name one, other than Kaepernick that has done squat? Which one would you have preferred? This is a question I have asked several times on this board of several people, and yet not one person has offered up a better solution of a QB that was available to the Vikings with selling or trading away the farm.

So who is it folks? Who is that QB that the Vikings could have had that would have made the difference.?

[Raptorman]

Philip Rivers, Josh Freeman. hell almost anyone. See how Cassel does to finish the season? Give Ponder to the bye to get his act together. Maybe the draft, but depends where we are drafting. If we're 7-17 no way do I just draft whoever is there like the idiot move they made with Ponder. If there isn't a possible elite talent there, give Cassel the start. Sign a veteran. Whatever you do, if Ponder doesn't pick it up between now and the bye, he gets benched. Start Cassel, if he struggles and the season is pretty much done, throw MBT out there. Ponder will have over 30 NFL starts by then. If he doesn't have it together it should be clear to even the most hardcore Ponder lover that he's not going to get it......

And how do you propose we could have got a hold of Freeman, Rivers?

[BGM]

I never asked... but you can fairly consider me duly chastised...

So your option is to bench Ponder. Did Cassel show anything this preseason with the second string that he would be a good option? I'm serious! I didn't see it, but maybe it's there. Yeah, he had one good partial season with an almost can't fail system in NE, but will he do any good within this system? I thought he was brought in as a veteran should Ponder get hurt. After one game this season, as infuriating as it was, I am not ready to see him benched. But then, I also think that the chance of that is sliver thin considering the Vikings' commitment to Ponder.

Draftwise, you say go for an elite prospect. Makes sense. Who is going to be available? Does Manziel declare? Bridgewater, but is he as good as advertised? Who else is there? I know it's a little difficult to answer this early in the season, but I know Spielman and staff are evaluating.

So, you float Freeman as a possible replacement option. Does he give the Vikings a chance to make it to the Super Bowl? Judging from your past posts, you feel that it takes an elite QB to find consistent success in today's NFL. If so, does Freeman (or Rivers for that matter) qualify?

It seems like we have a grass is greener outlook. Anyone but Ponder. There may be some truth to that, and I am willing to accept that might be true. But are we going to settle for a minimum upgrade just because it's anyone but Ponder? And, if Ponder is a workout warrior, like Dilfer insists (and I tend to agree), then is the failure at the QB coaching level?

[yezzir]

We all have opinions. Not saying Dilfer's or anyone is right or wrong. But most QB's that come into this league that are perennial winners usually have some time on the bench or at least a few bad years before they turn the corner. Very few that come in and win right off the bat. And those that do, well you have to have a losing season to get one. And then he might not be the one that is a winner. Of the QB's drafted with Ponder, name one, other than Kaepernick that has done squat? Which one would you have preferred? This is a question I have asked several times on this board of several people, and yet not one person has offered up a better solution of a QB that was available to the Vikings with selling or trading away the farm.

So who is it folks? Who is that QB that the Vikings could have had that would have made the difference.?

Cam Newton, Andy Dalton. Might be missing 1 or 2.

[Demi]

Kaepernick and Dalton where both prospects in that draft we passed on. That we could have got with a later pick if we had done what I suggested at the time...not forced a QB regardless of who was there are the 12th pick. Ponder was projected as a 2nd, 3rdish pick. After the draft before anything else Dilfer and others said he had issues.

That's the point. His opinion is no better than anyone else's. It's an opinion.

Well, unlike my opinion, yours, and everyone on this board, it was backed up by watching film of all of his games in college...as part of his job. Oh, he was also a player in college, and the league. And is a paid professional. Who's job is to analyze QBs. So yeah, his opinion is better than anyone else's. Unless of course it's another paid expert who's played in the league....and to be honest he's done a heck of a better job than most. I was honestly a little surprised when I heard about his break down of Ponder from 2 years ago. And even more surprised when someone mentioned Kaepernick and I went to search for Dilfer's take at the time on him. It's easy to look at what people say now. But going back to the draft it's pretty interesting to see Dilfer's take on two guys taken outside of the first and how they've panned out thus far.

And, if Ponder is a workout warrior, like Dilfer insists (and I tend to agree), then is the failure at the QB coaching level?

That's where it gets even more difficult. But judging by the QBs this team has had, would it really surprise anyone? Ponder was worse than he had been last year. How does a guy regress going into his third season? Even in the preseason he looked pretty bad. Joe Webb was given a chance at QB and didn't improve a lick. Ponder's play action is just as bad now as it was before, his accuracy, heck his accuracy is even worse. Is it coaching? Or is he just that bad? Musgrave, like Childress before him with McNabb, got credit for Matt Ryan (and to a lesser degree Matt Schaub), but really how much effect did he have? If any? Is it even possible to measure that?

To me it's on the player. Whether it's having the skill, or working to improve the skill you have. is a coach really going to be able to improve that much, especially if the player simply lacks the ability to improve? Heck the QB coach we brought in when we signed Ponder had 7 years with the Titans...and before we signed him ended up at the HB coach for a year. Musgrave never called plays and we handed him that job. Seems like some pretty questionable hirings to me...

[Raptorman]

I'd take Bridgewater, Boyd, Fales, Murray and McCarron all before Manziel.

Before you get hot on Manziel, you really need to take a look at how Heisman winner QB's do in the NFL. Not a good track record.

[The Breeze]

Philip Rivers, Josh Freeman. hell almost anyone. See how Cassel does to finish the season? Give Ponder to the bye to get his act together. Maybe the draft, but depends where we are drafting. If we're 7-17 no way do I just draft whoever is there like the idiot move they made with Ponder. If there isn't a possible elite talent there, give Cassel the start. Sign a veteran. Whatever you do, if Ponder doesn't pick it up between now and the bye, he gets benched. Start Cassel, if he struggles and the season is pretty much done, throw MBT out there. Ponder will have over 30 NFL starts by then. If he doesn't have it together it should be clear to even the most hardcore Ponder lover that he's not going to get it......

I can see Fraizer turning up the heat after the bye
I still cannot get a read on where they truly are with his development vs their commitment. Either way I want them to draft another guy asap. I don't feel overly concerned about the position this season. To me the team is needing more than a solid QB before I'll take them too seriously for contenders
. If Ponder gets the hook I'll be fine with Cassel.

[VikingLord]

I'd take Bridgewater, Boyd, Fales, Murray, Carr and McCarron all before Manziel.

Then you'd be missing out on a guy who is likely going to be the best QB of the class IMHO.

When you watch Manziel, you can see he has that special something. He sees things that few QBs see, and he has the moxie to make plays few QBs can even attempt. He has that innate talent. Is he cocky? Sure, but that isn't always a bad thing. Deon Sanders was cocky, but he was capable of backing it up. Manziel didn't just hold his own against top-flight talent as a rookie QB - he *thrived* against it. He was at his best when the pressure was on. Think about that for a minute, and then think about the type of guy you want behind center when a game is on the line.

To be sure, there are other potentially great QBs in this upcoming class, and Manziel is hardly a lock. Just as his immense confidence and talent could take him to rarified air as a pro, it could also cause him to self-destruct, and I do think he needs to reign it in just a tad here. But I think the talent and potential vastly outweigh the negatives. Just watch - Manziel will demonstrate he can sit in the pocket and be every bit as effective as he is scrambling. I am really glad that there are several other very strong QB prospects in this year's class, because unless the Vikings are much worse than I expect they would otherwise not have a shot at him. When all is said and done this year and assuming he comes out, he won't last past #10, and may very well go in the top 5 and be the first or second QB off the board.

[Mothman]

One thing about the hindsight argument is that Childress left the team in such disarray at the QB position that Spielman had no choice but to reach. I wanted Amukamara or Fairley but knew the Vikings would take a QB. That being the case I was hoping Locker would fall and if not him then I wanted Dalton.

For arguments sake let's say Ponder is also gone like CK and Dalton were when we pick in round 2 and we still take Rudolph we're left with McNabb and Webb at QB along with some 3rd round or later project. Some of you like love Ryan Mallett but I've never like him.

I don't blame Spielman for reaching it's just he reached for the wrong guy. You could have conceivably put trying to get a franchise QB off another year but that woulda just made 2011 even more of a waste than it already was.

Good post.

As the saying goes, Spielman was caught between a rock and a hard place. He took a swing and it looks like he missed but he had to take a big swing on a QB in that draft. He may end up in a similar position next year too. We'll see. I wish he'd provided himself with a better backup plan already but at least he'll have a QB or two with significant NFL experience under contract going into next year (Cassel and Ponder) as opposed to Joe Webb and... nobody else.

[majorm]

Then you'd be missing out on a guy who is likely going to be the best QB of the class IMHO.

When you watch Manziel, you can see he has that special something. He sees things that few QBs see, and he has the moxie to make plays few QBs can even attempt. He has that innate talent. Is he cocky? Sure, but that isn't always a bad thing. Deon Sanders was cocky, but he was capable of backing it up. Manziel didn't just hold his own against top-flight talent as a rookie QB - he *thrived* against it. He was at his best when the pressure was on. Think about that for a minute, and then think about the type of guy you want behind center when a game is on the line.

To be sure, there are other potentially great QBs in this upcoming class, and Manziel is hardly a lock. Just as his immense confidence and talent could take him to rarified air as a pro, it could also cause him to self-destruct, and I do think he needs to reign it in just a tad here. But I think the talent and potential vastly outweigh the negatives. Just watch - Manziel will demonstrate he can sit in the pocket and be every bit as effective as he is scrambling. I am really glad that there are several other very strong QB prospects in this year's class, because unless the Vikings are much worse than I expect they would otherwise not have a shot at him. When all is said and done this year and assuming he comes out, he won't last past #10, and may very well go in the top 5 and be the first or second QB off the board.

Manziel would scare me a little bit. He just SEEMS to be such a punk. I know that can change with some maturity but I'd be worried he could possibly be another Matt Leinert. A guy who spends a little too much time enjoying the celebrity that comes along with being a big-time athlete and too little time putting in the work required to continue to improve your game.

I don't know too much about the kid though. i just know that he can get by on pure talent at the level he is now. He'll need much more than that to be a top NFL QB. Is he serious enough about being a great QB or does he enjoy the parties and all the other stuff more??

He'll certainly get his chance to prove it as he'll go high to somebody.

[Mothman]

Manziel would scare me a little bit. He just SEEMS to be such a punk. I know that can change with some maturity but I'd be worried he could possibly be another Matt Leinert. A guy who spends a little too much time enjoying the celebrity that comes along with being a big-time athlete and too little time putting in the work required to continue to improve your game.

I don't know too much about the kid though. i just know that he can get by on pure talent at the level he is now. He'll need much more than that to be a top NFL QB. Is he serious enough about being a great QB or does he enjoy the parties and all the other stuff more??

He'll certainly get his chance to prove it as he'll go high to somebody.

We'll see. He has almost an entire season of football to play before he'll even be draft eligible.

I think you raised some good questions about him that NFL scouts are undoubtedly asking as well.

[Vikefan68]

I hate to say this or even wish this on a player, but the best thing that can happen to this team right now is for Ponder to get hurt and miss some time. This gets Cassel in the game without putting Frazier in Spielman's doghouse, gives Spielman the excuse that he brought in a viable backup plan and gives Cassel an opportunity with AD and #1s.

I mean, if we are going to argue that Ponder struggled in the pre-season because AD wasn't out there, how are we going to say Cassel looked worse when he was out there with a terrible 2nd string O-Line and the likes of Joe Banyard at RB? Cassel is not the saving grace or long term answer for this team, but he is a viable option and should be enough of an upgrade to take advantage of 8-9 defenders in the box.

Dilfer's assessment was/is spot on and at the time I was hoping Dalton would have been the QB we had selected at some point.