Min at DET post-game

[Cliff]

That is what happened against the Lions. It is not what has happened against any team that wasn't complete garbage. Spotting a good team 9 points will lose you games against the Rams, Bears, Saints, Cowboys, and Seattle.

If your main point is that the offense can't start like they did and expect to win against better teams I agree. They can have a couple of drives that way but not basically an entire half.

[Mothman]

Meant to have a "caliber" in there. They are not a championship defense like the 2015 Broncos were, but with even an above average offense they are good enough to win it all.

The number of defenses that could stop 3 good teams in a row(the minimum it would take to win it all) while their offense continually gives the other teams good field position, I could count on one hand. Lack of production on offense has been a problem all of Zims career both on the Bengals where he had zero control over that side of the ball, and here where he has some control but where he too often differs to others.

Expectations for Zims defense are way too high in an era where all the rules favor the offense. If the offense struggles to sustain drives and has the other team starting at the 50 on a regular basis, you are going to lose.

That certainly puts more pressure on a defense but I don't think expectations are too high for Zimmer's defense in this era. After all, the Broncos team you mentioned above won a Super Bowl with their defense leading the way and the Seahawks did the same not so long ago. Zimmer has created a situation where the pressure is on his defense by making it his main focus.

The basic premise that Zimmer's defenses are good enough to win it all with an above average offense is only going to prove valid if he can actually field teams with above average offenses (he and Spielman are 1 of 4 in that department so far) and if his defense delivers when they get the opportunity in the postseason. Last year, in the one season in which Zimmer had an above average offense, we all saw his top-ranked defense fail the "stop 3 good teams in a row" test in the postseason. It's just one year and I'm not suggesting they couldn't pass that test in another season but 5 years in, with just one season of above average offense and the Vikes on the edge of the playoffs with a mediocre record, the premise on which the Vikings are hanging their hopes looks increasingly flawed.

Maybe they'll enter the playoffs on a winning streak and get the job done this year. We'll find out soon enough.

[Mothman]

Cousin's didn't beat a wining team before he came here, we should have kept Keenum, who did squat before he was with the Vikings last year. I have come to the conclusion that no matter who the Vikings get at QB some people will never be happy.

Probably not, at least not if the team is mediocre but let's flip things around for a moment. Why should Vikings fans be happy with the way Spielman has managed the QB position or the results we've seen? That question if for anybody and everybody, not just you.

How happy should we really be with Cousins? I'll be the first to acknowledge that, garbage time padding or not, his 29 TD passes are a welcome change from QBs who struggled to get to 15 or 20. However, his 17 turnovers have been problematic and, at times, very costly. Thus far, he hasn't been a difference-maker that's given the Vikes the edge to win big games.

[PurpleMustReign]

Cousin's didn't beat a wining team before he came here, we should have kept Keenum, who did squat before he was with the Vikings last year. I have come to the conclusion that no matter who the Vikings get at QB some people will never be happy.

Probably not, at least not if the team is mediocre but let's flip things around for a moment. Why should Vikings fans be happy with the way Spielman has managed the QB position or the results we've seen? That question if for anybody and everybody, not just you.

How happy should we really be with Cousins? I'll be the first to acknowledge that, garbage time padding or not, his 29 TD passes are a welcome change from QBs who struggled to get to 15 or 20. However, his 17 turnovers have been problematic and, at times, very costly. Thus far, he hasn't been a difference-maker that's given the Vikes the edge to win big games.

My biggest issue with the turnovers is the timing. Obviously it's never good to have a turnover, but if I'm not misraken, he has three pick-6's this season, two of which were at very critical times in the game. He also had a fumble against Seattle that sealed the game, and one against Arizona on a drive right before halftime. Yeah, yeah, offensive line, blah. He still dropped the ball and has a propensity for turnovers at bad time, which is not a trait you want from an $84 million man.

[StumpHunter]

I'll be the first to acknowledge that, garbage time padding or not, his 29 TD passes are a welcome change from QBs who struggled to get to 15 or 20.

I personally will take the QB who scores 17 TDs in an offense that is 14th in scoring efficiency over the one who has 30 TDs and leads an offense that is 21st. Being bad at throwing TDs is not really a thing. Being bad at sustaining drives because of an inability to extend plays on obvious passing downs or struggling under pressure situations or turning the ball over 17 times is a thing. If a QB leads a team down inside the ten and the RB runs it 3 times and scores on the third attempt, that isn't a bad thing for the QB despite not throwing a passing TD
. If the QB struggles for much of the game and throws 2 TDs when the game is out of reach, who cares? Stats in context matter, and Cousins numbers in the context of throwing a lot while scoring a little, matters.

[The negotiator]

I'll be the first to acknowledge that, garbage time padding or not, his 29 TD passes are a welcome change from QBs who struggled to get to 15 or 20.

I personally will take the QB who scores 17 TDs in an offense that is 14th in scoring efficiency over the one who has 30 TDs and leads an offense that is 21st. Being bad at throwing TDs is not really a thing. Being bad at sustaining drives because of an inability to extend plays on obvious passing downs or struggling under pressure situations or turning the ball over 17 times is a thing. If a QB leads a team down inside the ten and the RB runs it 3 times and scores on the third attempt, that isn't a bad thing for the QB despite not throwing a passing TD
. If the QB struggles for much of the game and throws 2 TDs when the game is out of reach, who cares? Stats in context matter, and Cousins numbers in the context of throwing a lot while scoring a little, matters.

Curious, if Carlson makes one of the three missed field goals, and we are 9-6, beat the bears, finish at 10-6, does that change your perception of the Vikes in general and Cousins in particular?

[Raptorman]

Wentz 7 ints. 6 Fumbles 11 games.
Goff. 12 int 9 fumbles.
Mahomes. 11 int 6 fumbles.
Roethlisburger 15 ints 7 fumbles.
Brees 5 ints 5 fumbles.
Brady. 11 int 5 Fumbles
Rivers 11 int 5 fumbles.
Newton 13 int 5 fumbles
Cousins 10 int 9 fumbles.
Luck 15 int 6 fumbles.
Wilson 6 int 10 fumbles.
Rodgers 2 int 2 fumbles
Ryan 6 int 9 fumbles
Luck 14 int 6 fumbles

Seems to me Cousin's is right about were he average is for int and fumbles. Now, the timing might have something to do with it. But very few QB's are way below average. Seems to me the only 3 QB's not in that average are Brees, and Rodgers.

[YikesVikes]

Wentz 7 ints. 6 Fumbles 11 games.
Goff. 12 int 9 fumbles.
Mahomes. 11 int 6 fumbles.
Roethlisburger 15 ints 7 fumbles.
Brees 5 ints 5 fumbles.
Brady. 11 int 5 Fumbles
Rivers 11 int 5 fumbles.
Newton 13 int 5 fumbles
Cousins 10 int 9 fumbles.
Luck 15 int 6 fumbles.
Wilson 6 int 10 fumbles.
Rodgers 2 int 2 fumbles
Ryan 6 int 9 fumbles
Luck 14 int 6 fumbles

Seems to me Cousin's is right about were he average is for int and fumbles. Now, the timing might have something to do with it. But very few QB's are way below average. Seems to me the only 3 QB's not in that average are Brees, and Rodgers.

Don't use facts against them. It's unfair. We are a delusional bunch with short-term memory. Start of the season we were greatful for Cousins because we would have been getting blown out if not for him. Now, its his fault.

[Mothman]

Wentz 7 ints. 6 Fumbles 11 games.
Goff. 12 int 9 fumbles.
Mahomes. 11 int 6 fumbles.
Roethlisburger 15 ints 7 fumbles.
Brees 5 ints 5 fumbles.
Brady. 11 int 5 Fumbles
Rivers 11 int 5 fumbles.
Newton 13 int 5 fumbles
Cousins 10 int 9 fumbles.
Luck 15 int 6 fumbles.
Wilson 6 int 10 fumbles.
Rodgers 2 int 2 fumbles
Ryan 6 int 9 fumbles
Luck 14 int 6 fumbles

Seems to me Cousin's is right about were he average is for int and fumbles. Now, the timing might have something to do with it. But very few QB's are way below average. Seems to me the only 3 QB's not in that average are Brees, and Rodgers.

Don't use facts against them. It's unfair. We are a delusional bunch with short-term memory. Start of the season we were greatful for Cousins because we would have been getting blown out if not for him. Now, its his fault.

What's his fault?

Let's try to have actual discussions instead of attempting to divide people into ridiculously simplified "us vs. them" camps. Please?

Raptorman, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the stats above. I said Cousins' 17 turnovers were problematic. Would falling in line with a league average make them any less so? Plus, it's worth differentiating between "fumbles" and "fumbles lost" because the former aren't all turnovers and the latter are. Cousins leads the league in fumbles lost. Obviously, when a player loses the ball he doesn't necessarily have any control over who recovers it but nevertheless, the turnover is a problem and as Josh pointed out, the timing of some of the turnovers has been a real problem. They've had real impact on game outcomes.

I'll return to the question: How happy should we really be with Cousins? It's not an all-or-nothing question, where anybody has to be 100% satisfied or dissatisfied with him. Is average where fans here have set the bar, the quality of performance at which Vikes fans should be quietly satisfied with the QB, the GM and the road that led to this point?

[Raptorman]

Don't use facts against them. It's unfair. We are a delusional bunch with short-term memory. Start of the season we were greatful for Cousins because we would have been getting blown out if not for him. Now, its his fault.

What's his fault?

Let's try to have actual discussions instead of attempting to divide people into ridiculously simplified "us vs. them" camps. Please?

Raptorman, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the stats above. I said Cousins' 17 turnovers were problematic. Would falling in line with a league average make them any less so? Plus, it's worth differentiating between "fumbles" and "fumbles lost" because the former aren't all turnovers and the latter are. Cousins leads the league in fumbles lost. Obviously, when a player loses the ball he doesn't necessarily have any control over who recovers it but nevertheless, the turnover is a problem and as Josh pointed out, the timing of some of the turnovers has been a real problem. They've had real impact on game outcomes.

I'll return to the question: How happy should we really be with Cousins? It's not an all-or-nothing question, where anybody has to be 100% satisfied or dissatisfied with him. Is average where fans here have set the bar, the quality of performance at which Vikes fans should be quietly satisfied with the QB, the GM and the road that led to this point?

And I'll ask this. How many of Cousins fumbles are a result of getting hit because the O-line didn't do their job and how many are Cousins fault directly? When a player fumbles, they have no choice as to who recovers. IF Cousins fumbles had be recovered by the Vikings, would the it still be problematic? Not every fumble is his fault, and not every interception is his fault. Sometimes luck has a play in things. While I don't like his turnovers, I also don't believe that all of them are "just his fault". It's part of the game. Am I happy with his play? Sure, to a point. But I am not going to sit here and claim that he is the only reason that the team is hovering around .500. I hope that next year we have the ability to make some improvements on the O-line, and he has less turnovers.

[YikesVikes]

What's his fault?

Let's try to have actual discussions instead of attempting to divide people into ridiculously simplified "us vs. them" camps. Please?

Raptorman, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the stats above. I said Cousins' 17 turnovers were problematic. Would falling in line with a league average make them any less so? Plus, it's worth differentiating between "fumbles" and "fumbles lost" because the former aren't all turnovers and the latter are. Cousins leads the league in fumbles lost. Obviously, when a player loses the ball he doesn't necessarily have any control over who recovers it but nevertheless, the turnover is a problem and as Josh pointed out, the timing of some of the turnovers has been a real problem. They've had real impact on game outcomes.

I'll return to the question: How happy should we really be with Cousins? It's not an all-or-nothing question, where anybody has to be 100% satisfied or dissatisfied with him. Is average where fans here have set the bar, the quality of performance at which Vikes fans should be quietly satisfied with the QB, the GM and the road that led to this point?

I didn't divide this group into us vs. them. It is already divided. People are looking for someone to blame as to why this season didn't end up in a 15-1 team and the answer for most is Kirk Cousins because the media has been fixated on his contract despite other guys making more money and signing at the same time as him. it's idiotic. We focus on Kirk when the o-line can't stop a nosebleed. Can Kirk improve? sure, but that can be said for every QB not name WIlson, Brees, Tom, and Rodgers. Everyone else has games that you wonder wth was that. Big Ben looked like he was going to quit mid-season last year. What we do have is a QB with a 2-1 td to int ratio. I remember when that used to be something a team would be excited about.

We should be very happy with Cousins. As I pointed out he has played like a top 5 QB at times this season and as a middle of the road qb for others. His below average games have been hard to watch but actually watching the game, you can see that it has typically been tied to an inability to block and the running game getting behind on the sticks. I am more happy with Cousins than any QB we've had in the past 10 years. Additionally, if we are able to fix the oline, the offense will only get better each season with time in it.

[Mothman]

And I'll ask this. How many of Cousins fumbles are a result of getting hit because the O-line didn't do their job and how many are Cousins fault directly?

I can't out a number on it but some of them are obviously the result of pressure and poor blocking (perhaps even most of them). I'm not saying they're all his fault. I'm saying they're a problem, as are the interceptions. Why is that controversial?

When a player fumbles, they have no choice as to who recovers.

I literally made that same point in my post.

While I don't like his turnovers, I also don't believe that all of them are "just his fault". It's part of the game. Am I happy with his play? Sure, to a point. But I am not going to sit here and claim that he is the only reason that the team is hovering around .500.

I'm not doing that either. They're obviously hovering around .500 for a whole bunch of reasons but Cousins' performance is one of them. He does need to play better.

I hope that next year we have the ability to make some improvements on the O-line, and he has less turnovers.

I'm with you on that. I'm not giving up on him. My dissatisfaction is more with the road that led to giving him a 3 year guaranteed contract and the questionable management of his position and the o-line.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

I'm definitely not 100% dissatisfied. I think he's overrated. But he may not be that far off. I guess the best way to explain it is that his lack of mobility doesn't suit the current Vikings team well, and more importantly, he doesn't have that "IT" Factor. Don't ask me to describe what that is because I don't think it can be defined. If Cousins is the QB that is going to take the Vikings to a Super Bowl, then obviously it was a good decision. But if he doesn't take us there this year, then as I look around the league, these are the QB's that I'd rather have right now. (and I'm not including Rogers because I can't stand him, and he's a Packer)

Russell Wilson
Patrick Mahomes
Tom Brady
Deshaun Watson
Carson Wentz
Drew Brees
Andrew Luck
Phillip Rivers
Jared Goff
Mitchell Trubinsky
Josh Rosen
Baker Mayfield
Lamar Jackson
Case Keenum
Josh Allen
Matthew Stafford

I list some of these because I think they would give us a better chance THIS year, and others because of their upside and potential to take us there in the not too distant future. So what does that say for Cousins that I have listed 17 other QB's that I'd rather have?

[Mothman]

I didn't divide this group into us vs. them. It is already divided

All I'm asking is for people to please not reinforce it with comments like "Don't use facts against them. It's unfair."

People are looking for someone to blame as to why this season didn't end up in a 15-1 team and the answer for most is Kirk Cousins because the media has been fixated on his contract despite other guys making more money and signing at the same time as him. it's idiotic.

It's also NOT what I'm doing or what Josh was doing. I hope it's clear by now who I hold responsible for the overall quality of the team's performance this season and it's not a player (or a single individual). Anyway, the wisdom of Cousins' contract is questionable but people who question it here aren't all simply responding to the media's fixation.

We focus on Kirk when the o-line can't stop a nosebleed.

There have literally been dozens of posts this season (probably many more than that) discussing what a huge problem the o-line is and the impact it's had on the team. Heck, I'll bet it's one issue virtually the entire board agrees on by this point.

Can Kirk improve? sure, but that can be said for every QB not name WIlson, Brees, Tom, and Rodgers. Everyone else has games that you wonder wth was that. Big Ben looked like he was going to quit mid-season last year. What we do have is a QB with a 2-1 td to int ratio. I remember when that used to be something a team would be excited about

We should be very happy with Cousins. As I pointed out he has played like a top 5 QB at times this season and as a middle of the road qb for others.

He's also looked bad at times. All of the same could have been said about Jay Cutler during almost every season he played for the Bears. He could look fantastic at times but he was wildly inconsistent, sometimes average, sometimes awful. Cousins is better but because he has played that way, and because a few of his weaker performances have been in important games where the Vikings needed him to play a lot better, fans are not all "very happy" with him and that's reasonable.

His below average games have been hard to watch but actually watching the game, you can see that it has typically been tied to an inability to block and the running game getting behind on the sticks. I am more happy with Cousins than any QB we've had in the past 10 years.

For the most part, I am too but I can feel that way and still not be satisfied. The best QB the Vikes have had in the past 10 years is Brett Favre and he was a long-time Packer, which is why I'm happier with Cousins despite the fact that Favre was better in 2009. Other than Favre and Keenum's career-best performance last year, let's face it, the bar is pretty low.

I don't expect Cousins to be something he's not. He's an upgrade but it still remains to be seen whether he's an answer or just another in a long line of veteran stopgaps.

[Pondering Her Percy]

What's his fault?

Let's try to have actual discussions instead of attempting to divide people into ridiculously simplified "us vs. them" camps. Please?

Raptorman, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with the stats above. I said Cousins' 17 turnovers were problematic. Would falling in line with a league average make them any less so? Plus, it's worth differentiating between "fumbles" and "fumbles lost" because the former aren't all turnovers and the latter are. Cousins leads the league in fumbles lost. Obviously, when a player loses the ball he doesn't necessarily have any control over who recovers it but nevertheless, the turnover is a problem and as Josh pointed out, the timing of some of the turnovers has been a real problem. They've had real impact on game outcomes.

I'll return to the question: How happy should we really be with Cousins? It's not an all-or-nothing question, where anybody has to be 100% satisfied or dissatisfied with him. Is average where fans here have set the bar, the quality of performance at which Vikes fans should be quietly satisfied with the QB, the GM and the road that led to this point?

I didn't divide this group into us vs. them. It is already divided. People are looking for someone to blame as to why this season didn't end up in a 15-1 team and the answer for most is Kirk Cousins because the media has been fixated on his contract despite other guys making more money and signing at the same time as him. it's idiotic. We focus on Kirk when the o-line can't stop a nosebleed. Can Kirk improve? sure, but that can be said for every QB not name WIlson, Brees, Tom, and Rodgers. Everyone else has games that you wonder wth was that. Big Ben looked like he was going to quit mid-season last year. What we do have is a QB with a 2-1 td to int ratio. I remember when that used to be something a team would be excited about.

We should be very happy with Cousins. As I pointed out he has played like a top 5 QB at times this season and as a middle of the road qb for others. His below average games have been hard to watch but actually watching the game, you can see that it has typically been tied to an inability to block and the running game getting behind on the sticks. I am more happy with Cousins than any QB we've had in the past 10 years. Additionally, if we are able to fix the oline, the offense will only get better each season with time in it.

Excellent post and I agree on all counts. This board is already completely divided and that isn’t going to change. Cousins is the new scapegoat of this team. Anything that goes wrong, lands on his shoulders. I have NEVER seen this board literally question every throw a QB makes, every sack a QB takes, every turnover a QB has, etc. Its quite ridiculous if you ask me. I mean it could be a jail break blitz where nobody gets blocked and Cousins gets sacked and all we see is “throw the ball” or “Cousins has no mobility” , etc. This board has RIPPED the OL for years now. It’s arguably the worst it’s been and the cousins haters completely ignore the OL effing up. If a sack happens, it’s cousins fault. Just because the guy got paid 84 million doesn’t mean he’s super man. He can only do so much. Yeah he does wrong but like you said, it’s not all his fault.

I’m sick of hearing the $84 million talk. The QB market is about leverage. It’s not like cousins sucked us for every penny. Teams were offering more but he went with us. There is a new highest paid QB every single year. It constantly changes. The contract means nothing.

As for having Cousins as our QB, yeah he’s way better than any QB we’ve had in a long time. Keenum is a pile of junk. Look at the numbers, look at the record, look at the play. He’s back down to earth and is mediocre to below average with a terrible history. Hence why we let him walk.

It just makes me laugh that a QB that was a career bum/backup has one miracle year and now is garbage in Denver when they paid him a good chunk of change and people defend him? What are you defending?!! You really trust a one year wonder to do anything with this team?! You guys are complaining about cousins not beating a winning team? Keenum has lost to the Jets, 49ers, browns and raiders this year. But hey he beat the chargers so go Case!! He’s lost to 4 of the worst franchises in the nfl. Granted the browns are better but they are still the browns. So who cares if he beats a winning team here and there. He can’t beat the teams he’s SUPPOSE to beat. So those wins against the chargers don’t mean sh**.

Either way, that’s why I get beyond frustrated on here. I’ve never seen 1 single player EVER take all the heat from some fans on this board. It’s a joke. Everyone just looks at record and says “yup Case was better” or “this team is worse because of cousins”. That argument is as weak as it gets. There is so much more behind that. I mean the guys does wrong at times. He’s like every other QB. There are things that will be his fault. No doubt. But my god some of you guys are so far fetched with what you’re saying it’s not even funny. Every fricken thread turns into cousins talk now. Mods say I should ignore it? Well then I might as well not be on the board because you can’t click on any thread without talking about it. The same guys every time too. Just constant complaining. I swear if cousins won a SB guys would still find fault with him. Discussing him is one thing. Constantly repeating yourself until you get more aboard the “I hate Cousins” train ruins most of the threads and the chat. It ruins the fun of the board. It ruins the fun of the chat. I keep saying, the day we get knocked out of the playoffs, I’ll probably take time off of here. Because NO MATTER WHAT happens, I already know what it’s going to look like on here. It’s already happened before the game has even been played. Cousins could go 34 for 35 for 450 yards and 4 tds and guys would be on here saying we missed/got knocked out of the playoffs because of cousins 1 incompletion. What happens in the upcoming game/games doesn’t matter anymore. We all already know where the blame will go no matter how good or how bad he plays.

But ask Denver fans how satisified they are with the one year wonder Case Keenum. I’d love to hear the answers