Vikings Message Board.Com

Texas Vike wrote:In an attempt to get back to discussing football, and the QB position in particular, per the title of this thread...

I found this to be an interesting read about Vince Young: http://espn.go.com/blog/green-bay-packe ... ay-packers

VY is a pretty good illustration of just how difficult it is to find a franchise QB. Drafted highly after his very impressive National Championship victory over a USC team that was pretty widely hailed as one of the best teams ever, VY looked like a solid pick and a pretty sure bet for success in the NFL. Not the pocket passer mold, but a new type of QB that could run and pass well. Admittedly, he ran better than he passed. Leinart was viewed as a more traditional, pocket passer and also had shown a lot of the characteristics you want in your franchise QB.

Young is a good example and there are plenty of others that also illustrate how tricky it is to identify and develop a franchise QB. Tim Couch, Joey Harrington, JaMarcus Russell and David Carr all come to mind. 3 of those 4 QBs were the top pick in the draft when they selected. All of them had impressive college careers. None of them had good pro careers.

A lot of whether a guy becomes a franchise QB is how the franchise handles his progression. Impatience is one of the major obstacles. It is a complex position that requires time to absorb all of the subtleties. Riding the bench and soaking it all in like Rodgers did is ideal. At the very least we have to give CP this season to see if things start to come together for him. If not, we run the risk of simply jumping ship from one prospect to the next, all of whom might very well turn out to be a VY or Matt Lienart.

Well said. I strongly agree that patience is important. It isn't always rewarded but it's necessary and how a franchise handles a QB's development, along with how they build a team around him, can have a huge impact on his success or failure. It's very easy to lose perspective, especially when several teams have been fortunate enough to find rookie phenoms at QB in recent years. Whether those players become great QBs in the long term remains to be seen. For all the hype Michael Vick once received as a #1 pick and a young star, I don't think he ever truly lived up to his promise as a QB. He certainly didn't become a great QB for the team that invested in drafting and developing him.

There's been a lot of attention devoted to stats in the Ponder debate so I think it's interesting to note that Tom Brady's stats in his second year in the league (and first as a starter) are similar in several ways to Ponder's stats in his second year. They aren't identical. There are differences (one of which is Brady played in 15 games and started 14 that year) but there are similarities. I'm not suggesting Ponder will become another Tom Brady but it's interesting to note that Brady's stat line doesn't suggest he would go on to become on the of the most prolific passers in football. In other words, the point is that a mediocre stat line at this point in a QB's career doesn't necessarily indicate what lies ahead. The Vikes are being patient and avoiding one of the major obstacles you mentioned. We just don't know if Ponder will ultimately reward that patience and if so, to what degree.

Mothman wrote:
There's been a lot of attention devoted to stats in the Ponder debate so I think it's interesting to note that Tom Brady's stats in his second year in the league (and first as a starter) are similar in several ways to Ponder's stats in his second year. They aren't identical. There are differences (one of which is Brady played in 15 games and started 14 that year) but there are similarities. I'm not suggesting Ponder will become another Tom Brady but it's interesting to note that Brady's stat line doesn't suggest he would go on to become on the of the most prolific passers in football. In other words, the point is that a mediocre stat line at this point in a QB's career doesn't necessarily indicate what lies ahead. The Vikes are being patient and avoiding one of the major obstacles you mentioned. We just don't know if Ponder will ultimately reward that patience and if so, to what degree.

oh man, that is a good one Jim, they are going to be in a tizzy for you suggesting Ponder and Brady could perhaps go in the same sentence one day!

mondry wrote:oh man, that is a good one Jim, they are going to be in a tizzy for you suggesting Ponder and Brady could perhaps go in the same sentence one day!

I almost left that out but since they both threw for 18 TDs and 12 INTs in their second season and they had similar yardage totals, I find it an interesting comparison. As I said, there are clear differences as well. For example, Brady led the Pats to a Super Bowl win that year! However, that also underlines the point: stats aren't everything. A QB with stats similar to Ponder can win it all with sufficient support from his teammates IF he makes the right plays at the right time.

This is getting silly now. Even the most ardent Ponder apologists are starting to see the writing on the wall and going foamy at the mouth.

I give up. Sometimes just reading this board makes me feel like an idiot.

This is by far the weirdest thread I have ever seen on VMB in my almost seven years on here.

Demi wrote:This is getting silly now. Even the most ardent Ponder apologists are starting to see the writing on the wall and going foamy at the mouth.

I give up. Sometimes just reading this board makes me feel like an idiot.

By all means.....go. with. the. feeling.

mondry wrote:oh man, that is a good one Jim, they are going to be in a tizzy for you suggesting Ponder and Brady could perhaps go in the same sentence one day!

I could think of many sentences with 'Ponder' and 'Brady' in them, but they all involve dichotomy.

soflavike wrote: I could think of many sentences with 'Ponder' and 'Brady' in them, but they all involve dichotomy.

Well, it's not as if I didn't point out that there were clear differences between the two players. I wasn't really comparing the players anyway, just making a point about QB stats and their relevance to wins and team success.

Ponder and Brady are obviously different. The former just got married last year and the latter's an architect who re-married and ended up with 6 kids and a wacky housekeeper who's in love with a butcher!

My two cents..

I think Ponder is one of the smarter QB back that came out in the draft group.

I don't think he has a great arm at all.

I hope that he works out for us this year, but I have me doubts as to if; that is ever going to happen.

I know most of the fans are frustrated that he has the job of starter without having to compete with the
other QB's. To me he has done nothing to deserve that, at all.

Mothman wrote:

Well, it's not as if I didn't point out that there were clear differences between the two players. I wasn't really comparing the players anyway, just making a point about QB stats and their relevance to wins and team success.

Ponder and Brady are obviously different. The former just got married last year and the latter's an architect who re-married and ended up with 6 kids and a wacky housekeeper who's in love with a butcher!

Remember when Marsha got her nose busted by a football? Then that QB from the other high school started dating her just so he could steal Greg's play book. I think that's where Belichek got some of his ideas from.

Speaking of Belichek, I hear he is a phenomenal banjo player.

jackal wrote:My two cents..

I think Ponder is one of the smarter QB back that came out in the draft group.

I don't think he has a great arm at all.

I hope that he works out for us this year, but I have me doubts as to if; that is ever going to happen.

I know most of the fans are frustrated that he has the job of starter without having to compete with the
other QB's. To me he has done nothing to deserve that, at all.

Nothing? How about leading them to a win over the 49ers last year or to an improbable come-from-behind victory over Jacksonville in Week 1? What about a 10-6 record and a playoff appearance? I think he had something to do with those wins.

I understand the idea that Ponder should compete for and earn the job but I'm not sure there's been another QB on the roster worth starting during his tenure. There's an argument to be made that there should have been but McNabb had the job and lost it, Webb never showed enough to seize it and MBT certainly doesn't deserve it. Cassel didn't make a convincing argument this preseason that he should be starting. Add in that Ponder was drafted because they wanted to find a starter and it makes sense that he has the job. We'll see if he can hang on to it...

Mothman wrote: Nothing? How about leading them to a win over the 49ers last year or to an improbable come-from-behind victory over Jacksonville in Week 1? What about a 10-6 record and a playoff appearance? I think he had something to do with those wins.

I understand the idea that Ponder should compete for and earn the job but I'm not sure there's been another QB on the roster worth starting during his tenure. There's an argument to be made that there should have been but McNabb had the job and lost it, Webb never showed enough to seize it and MBT certainly doesn't deserve it. Cassel didn't make a convincing argument this preseason that he should be starting. Add in that Ponder was drafted because they wanted to find a starter and it makes sense that he has the job. We'll see if he can hang on to it...

Head line from the New York Daily News:
Christian Ponder guides Minnesota Vikings to upset victory over San Francisco 49ers. VIKINGS 24, 49ERS 13: Ponder threw two touchdown passes to tight end Kyle Rudolph and ran for another score to help the Vikings hand the 49ers their first defeat of the season. After a dominant start to their NFC North tour by decisively beating playoff teams Green Bay and Detroit, the 49ers (2-1) were beaten in every way by the team least likely to do so. The Vikings (2-1) began the game boldly with a fourth-and-goal touchdown pass by Ponder to his favorite target Rudolph. Some choose to forget and others just forget.

Mothman wrote: Well, it's not as if I didn't point out that there were clear differences between the two players. I wasn't really comparing the players anyway, just making a point about QB stats and their relevance to wins and team success.

Ponder and Brady are obviously different. The former just got married last year and the latter's an architect who re-married and ended up with 6 kids and a wacky housekeeper who's in love with a butcher!

Is Marsha Brady available? I think she has a better arm than Ponder.

soflavike wrote:Is Marsha Brady available? I think she has a better arm than Ponder.

Just don't throw it to her!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k04Wv0fydvU

... and even though you were kidding, it's the second time today I've read a comment about Ponder's arm strength here on the board and I'll take any excuse to link to this awesome play again:

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-high ... yard-catch

Some of the best Ponder highlights I found on Youtube. Some really nice touch passes with good zip too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG6dfeYSrXM