Vikings Message Board.Com

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:33 am Arif Hasan at The Athletic has a really good article today about Cousins. It’s incredibly fair, even though it concludes that he’ll never be “elite.” It presents a ton of advanced statistical evidence to support the premise, but even more than that, it gets into the MIND of Kirk Cousins by using excerpts from his own book, “Game Changer.”

Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit. If this Arif Hasan critique is fair and accurate, then I can't say that that's what I want as a QB. My feeling, as only an observer, was that Cousins is just a "Play by the rules" type of guy. He was going to do his best to not upset Zimmer. He was going to run the play as called and if that wasn't there, then most of the time he would check down short because that's what Zimmer wanted him to do. But it's quite possible that I've laid too much blame on Zimmer and not enough on Cousins. I think I'd still like to see if anything changes in a different system as long as he agrees to restructure his deal. I totally agree that we can't move forward paying him as an elite QB when he's not that. If that can't b done, then I agree that it's time to unload him if possible.

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:27 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:33 am Arif Hasan at The Athletic has a really good article today about Cousins. It’s incredibly fair, even though it concludes that he’ll never be “elite.” It presents a ton of advanced statistical evidence to support the premise, but even more than that, it gets into the MIND of Kirk Cousins by using excerpts from his own book, “Game Changer.”

Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit. If this Arif Hasan critique is fair and accurate, then I can't say that that's what I want as a QB. My feeling, as only an observer, was that Cousins is just a "Play by the rules" type of guy. He was going to do his best to not upset Zimmer. He was going to run the play as called and if that wasn't there, then most of the time he would check down short because that's what Zimmer wanted him to do. But it's quite possible that I've laid too much blame on Zimmer and not enough on Cousins. I think I'd still like to see if anything changes in a different system as long as he agrees to restructure his deal. I totally agree that we can't move forward paying him as an elite QB when he's not that. If that can't b done, then I agree that it's time to unload him if possible.

Agreed. Just remember his salary for 2022 is 35 million not to be confused with his cap hit of 45 million. In todays Market I believe 30 Million is a fair price for Kirk.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:37 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:27 pm

Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit. If this Arif Hasan critique is fair and accurate, then I can't say that that's what I want as a QB. My feeling, as only an observer, was that Cousins is just a "Play by the rules" type of guy. He was going to do his best to not upset Zimmer. He was going to run the play as called and if that wasn't there, then most of the time he would check down short because that's what Zimmer wanted him to do. But it's quite possible that I've laid too much blame on Zimmer and not enough on Cousins. I think I'd still like to see if anything changes in a different system as long as he agrees to restructure his deal. I totally agree that we can't move forward paying him as an elite QB when he's not that. If that can't b done, then I agree that it's time to unload him if possible.

Agreed. Just remember his salary for 2022 is 35 million not to be confused with his cap hit of 45 million. In todays Market I believe 30 Million is a fair price for Kirk.

Here’s where I think you and I are struggling to agree.

I do not care what his salary is. If it’s $35 million, whatever. What matters is his cap hit. That’s what affects the Vikings’ ability to acquire other talent because it affects how much cap space is available.

If Kirk makes whatever, it doesn’t matter to me. He’s already made enough money to set up his family for generations. This is about allocation of resources, not salary.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:37 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:27 pm

Maybe I'm giving Kirk too much credit. If this Arif Hasan critique is fair and accurate, then I can't say that that's what I want as a QB. My feeling, as only an observer, was that Cousins is just a "Play by the rules" type of guy. He was going to do his best to not upset Zimmer. He was going to run the play as called and if that wasn't there, then most of the time he would check down short because that's what Zimmer wanted him to do. But it's quite possible that I've laid too much blame on Zimmer and not enough on Cousins. I think I'd still like to see if anything changes in a different system as long as he agrees to restructure his deal. I totally agree that we can't move forward paying him as an elite QB when he's not that. If that can't b done, then I agree that it's time to unload him if possible.

Agreed. Just remember his salary for 2022 is 35 million not to be confused with his cap hit of 45 million. In todays Market I believe 30 Million is a fair price for Kirk.

Just to be clear, the fair market price for an elite QB over the next few seasons is 40 million. The fair market price for an okay QB who teams know isn't quite good enough is 10-20 million.

People look at what guys like Goff, Wentz and Garopollo make and equate that to fair market for an average QB, but you have to remember that when those guys were signed, their teams thought they were capable of being great and would have never paid them like that if they had known how they would end up.

To put it another way, if you buy a car for 20 thousand and it breaks down after a few months and is incredibly unreliable, that doesn't mean the market price for an unreliable car becomes 20 thousand, it just means you overpaid for your car.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:11 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:37 pm
Agreed. Just remember his salary for 2022 is 35 million not to be confused with his cap hit of 45 million. In todays Market I believe 30 Million is a fair price for Kirk.

Here’s where I think you and I are struggling to agree.

I do not care what his salary is. If it’s $35 million, whatever. What matters is his cap hit. That’s what affects the Vikings’ ability to acquire other talent because it affects how much cap space is available.

If Kirk makes whatever, it doesn’t matter to me. He’s already made enough money to set up his family for generations. This is about allocation of resources, not salary.

The cap hit is on the Vikings for fudging the numbers this year or last. They have to pay the piper in 22. 10 million of that is sunk no matter what I believe. They can save 35 million by trading him but then they have to either go with Mond or pay someone else.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:11 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 2:37 pm
Agreed. Just remember his salary for 2022 is 35 million not to be confused with his cap hit of 45 million. In todays Market I believe 30 Million is a fair price for Kirk.

Just to be clear, the fair market price for an elite QB over the next few seasons is 40 million. The fair market price for an okay QB who teams know isn't quite good enough is 10-20 million.

People look at what guys like Goff, Wentz and Garopollo make and equate that to fair market for an average QB, but you have to remember that when those guys were signed, their teams thought they were capable of being great and would have never paid them like that if they had known how they would end up.

To put it another way, if you buy a car for 20 thousand and it breaks down after a few months and is incredibly unreliable, that doesn't mean the market price for an unreliable car becomes 20 thousand, it just means you overpaid for your car.

You don't set the fair market price Stump. GMs do and a top 10 QB like Kirk is going to go for around 30 million a year.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:43 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 4:11 pm
Just to be clear, the fair market price for an elite QB over the next few seasons is 40 million. The fair market price for an okay QB who teams know isn't quite good enough is 10-20 million.

People look at what guys like Goff, Wentz and Garopollo make and equate that to fair market for an average QB, but you have to remember that when those guys were signed, their teams thought they were capable of being great and would have never paid them like that if they had known how they would end up.

To put it another way, if you buy a car for 20 thousand and it breaks down after a few months and is incredibly unreliable, that doesn't mean the market price for an unreliable car becomes 20 thousand, it just means you overpaid for your car.

You don't set the fair market price Stump. GMs do and a top 10 QB like Kirk is going to go for around 30 million a year.

Very few executives consider Kirk Cousins a top 10 quarterback.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:29 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 8:43 pm

You don't set the fair market price Stump. GMs do and a top 10 QB like Kirk is going to go for around 30 million a year.

Very few executives consider Kirk Cousins a top 10 quarterback.

You don't know that. I would think most of them do, but I don't know that.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:47 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:29 pm
Very few executives consider Kirk Cousins a top 10 quarterback.

You don't know that. I would think most of them do, but I don't know that.

This is true. But I’d be shocked if other front offices consider a guy who’s 9-41 against winning teams a top 10 QB.

I’m not trying to pile on Cousins, but that stat is staggering. You play winning teams in the super bowl. You play winning teams in the playoffs. Every franchise in the country wants to win playoff games and Super Bowls. A guy 9-41 against those kinds of teams would suggest many teams would prefer to go another route.

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:08 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:47 pm

You don't know that. I would think most of them do, but I don't know that.

This is true. But I’d be shocked if other front offices consider a guy who’s 9-41 against winning teams a top 10 QB.

I’m not trying to pile on Cousins, but that stat is staggering. You play winning teams in the super bowl. You play winning teams in the playoffs. Every franchise in the country wants to win playoff games and Super Bowls. A guy 9-41 against those kinds of teams would suggest many teams would prefer to go another route.

Cousins has no record against winning teams. No QB has ever won or lost a game.
If you want to attribute wins and losses to QBs Matt Stafford must really suck. The Rams sure blew it when they traded for him.

Actually the Rams were smart enough to see a very good QB who happened to play for a team that lost a lot of games.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:13 pm

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:08 pm

This is true. But I’d be shocked if other front offices consider a guy who’s 9-41 against winning teams a top 10 QB.

I’m not trying to pile on Cousins, but that stat is staggering. You play winning teams in the super bowl. You play winning teams in the playoffs. Every franchise in the country wants to win playoff games and Super Bowls. A guy 9-41 against those kinds of teams would suggest many teams would prefer to go another route.

Cousins has no record against winning teams. No QB has ever won or lost a game.
If you want to attribute wins and losses to QBs Matt Stafford must really suck. The Rams sure blew it when they traded for him.

Actually the Rams were smart enough to see a very good QB who happened to play for a team that lost a lot of games.

The convenient excuse of The Cousins Crusaders — teams win and lose games, not quarterbacks.

By that logic, let’s lobby to keep Tom Brady out of the HOF. After all, his teams won those 7 Super Bowls, not him.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:47 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 9:29 pm
Very few executives consider Kirk Cousins a top 10 quarterback.

You don't know that. I would think most of them do, but I don't know that.

Maybe I know, maybe I don’t. But as usual, I base my comments on what I read.

Former Redskins GM Scot McCloughan:

He’s a good player. Is he special? I don’t see special.

From a NY Post article before Cousins signed in 2018:

Speaking to several NFL front office executives Wednesday about Cousins reveals a belief around the league that Cousins is a good quarterback who needs a strong team around him to win. He is not viewed as an elite passer like Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees or Tom Brady.

From the Washington Post in 2021:

“Kirk Cousins is overrated,” said one NFL executive whose team played the Vikings this year and who spoke on the condition of anonymity to frankly discuss another team’s player. “He can’t finish. He’s a great guy. Takes it very seriously. He’s got the body, mind and spirit — he’s got all those things you want in that position. But he doesn’t have enough arm talent. There’s a reason why he was taken in the fourth round. He’s just a guy. When [stuff] breaks down and adversity strikes and you got to extend the play, he can’t do it.”

I could go on, but that would just be mean.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:18 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:13 pm
Cousins has no record against winning teams. No QB has ever won or lost a game.
If you want to attribute wins and losses to QBs Matt Stafford must really suck. The Rams sure blew it when they traded for him.

Actually the Rams were smart enough to see a very good QB who happened to play for a team that lost a lot of games.

The convenient excuse of The Cousins Crusaders — teams win and lose games, not quarterbacks.

By that logic, let’s lobby to keep Tom Brady out of the HOF. After all, his teams won those 7 Super Bowls, not him.

That is honestly such a #### obnoxiously obtuse way of looking at things that I dare not even get into the issues with that.

Needless to say, a Quarterback is part of the team. Regardless of whether they are the most important position in the league; to lay on the feet of a quarterback the singular issue of wins and losses and chalk up their entire career to that statistic is borderline sociopathic if not outright negligent to actually assessing talent. If that were the case, then guys like Joe Namath, Eli Manning, Warren Moon, Matthew Stafford, Sonny Jurgenson, and Dan Fouts are undeserving of consideration for the NFL Hall of Fame because their records have hovered around .500 their entire careers, if not below that.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:18 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:13 pm
Cousins has no record against winning teams. No QB has ever won or lost a game.
If you want to attribute wins and losses to QBs Matt Stafford must really suck. The Rams sure blew it when they traded for him.

Actually the Rams were smart enough to see a very good QB who happened to play for a team that lost a lot of games.

The convenient excuse of The Cousins Crusaders — teams win and lose games, not quarterbacks.

By that logic, let’s lobby to keep Tom Brady out of the HOF. After all, his teams won those 7 Super Bowls, not him.

So your take is it's a one man show. Then why did KC sign that G for 18 mill a year and trade for a LT. Obviously Reid has no clue.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:13 pm

vikeinmontana wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 10:08 pm

This is true. But I’d be shocked if other front offices consider a guy who’s 9-41 against winning teams a top 10 QB.

I’m not trying to pile on Cousins, but that stat is staggering. You play winning teams in the super bowl. You play winning teams in the playoffs. Every franchise in the country wants to win playoff games and Super Bowls. A guy 9-41 against those kinds of teams would suggest many teams would prefer to go another route.

Cousins has no record against winning teams. No QB has ever won or lost a game.
If you want to attribute wins and losses to QBs Matt Stafford must really suck. The Rams sure blew it when they traded for him.

Actually the Rams were smart enough to see a very good QB who happened to play for a team that lost a lot of games.

Come on man. You’re arguing just to argue. If that’s the case then no athlete ever should be judged on anything. No pitchers should ever be in the MLB hall of fame. Hell, no players in any sport should be considered better than any others. Jordan is the same as Towns in regards to NBA careers because neither did anything or win any games by themselves.

For the sake of argument, we all agree that no single player in any sport at any level has been 100% responsible for winning. There, we got that out of the way.

But you know as well as I do, sports, and life for that matter doesn’t work that way. If it did, we wouldn’t be looking for a coach right now. Zimmers record wouldn’t mean a thing. After all, he never lost a single game by himself….

As it is, coaches, players, and especially QB’s, likely the most important position in all of sports, are judged by wins and losses. If a starting QB having a record of 9 - 41 against winning teams doesn’t give a franchise pause, what does? What matters? Coaches are judged the same way. Part of the reason some are excited about Harbaugh being head coach is because he’s won at every level he’s been at. Of COURSE he didn’t win those games alone! Why do you think coaches with great records, that they didn’t get by themselves, get opportunities to move up? Why do coaches with bad records, that they didn’t get themselves, get fired every single year?

And with all due respect, your Stafford example proves my point way more than yours. The guy is literally playing in the super bowl! He’s has more playoff wins this last month than Kirk has had his entire career with the Vikings! He could easily be a super bowl champ and possibly super bowl mvp in two weeks.

I think I can safely speak for the board when I say that if Cousins had gotten us to the super bowl, and gasp, WON the damn thing, many of us would be up in arms! It’s how sports works. Get your team to the promise land and win championships, and fans and coaches tend to be happier with you. And all this despite the fact that you didn’t win the super bowl all by yourself!

Please stop coming back to that lame argument. It could literally be said for every single topic about every single player we discuss on this board every day.