Vikings Need A Plan B at QB

[dead_poet]

should not every team have a viable plan B? It seems a primary responsibility of the GM/coach.

Most teams have a veteran backup and/or a young developmental guy. We currently have both. But I would doubt that many teams have two high to mid-range drafted young quarterbacks. Washington is the only one that comes immediately to mind.

[mansquatch]

On the ACL thing, I wasn't advocating that position I was merely stating that with our defense a top 10 draft pick, more specifically a top 3, is highly unlikely, especially if #28 is playing. If you want a top QB prospect, generally you need one of the top 3 picks. Hence, you'd need some of the talent off the field to make it happen...

Keep in mind, if you have insurance at QB then you are skinny somewhere else. There are not exactly an abundance of NFL quality athletes splattered around the world. What we are seeing on the OL is an example of this. We have lots of fresh talent on defense and at WR. On OL we've got a bunch of late picks and aging veterans and it adds up to not much.

Jim, I'm curious if you've considered the impact of the opposite of your position on the OL? If adding talent at OL won't result in better QB play then is your entire stance on that unit this year a bunch of malarchy? If you really believe that adding OL talent will have marginal to no impact on our passing game then why should we add any talent there at all? Sorry to call you to task here, but this position doesn't square with most of your lines of thought this season.

I can swallow the position that it will not do enough, but I can't believe those guys being healthy won't result in a positive statistical change on the scoreboard.

Here is a theory: Most QBs that are successful talk about the game slowing down. I think this year for Teddy the game got faster due to the combination of a terrible OL, DCs having a year of film on him, and perhaps the pressures of a winning record. Just a theory.

[Mothman]

On the ACL thing, I wasn't advocating that position I was merely stating that with our defense a top 10 draft pick, more specifically a top 3, is highly unlikely, especially if #28 is playing. If you want a top QB prospect, generally you need one of the top 3 picks. Hence, you'd need some of the talent off the field to make it happen...

Keep in mind, if you have insurance at QB then you are skinny somewhere else. There are not exactly an abundance of NFL quality athletes splattered around the world. What we are seeing on the OL is an example of this. We have lots of fresh talent on defense and at WR. On OL we've got a bunch of late picks and aging veterans and it adds up to not much.

Jim, I'm curious if you've considered the impact of the opposite of your position on the OL? If adding talent at OL won't result in better QB play...

That's not what I said...

... then is your entire stance on that unit this year a bunch of malarchy?

... so the answer is no.

If you really believe that adding OL talent will have marginal to no impact on our passing game then why should we add any talent there at all? Sorry to call you to task here, but this position doesn't square with most of your lines of thought this season. I can swallow the position that it will not do enough, but I can't believe those guys being healthy won't result in a positive statistical change on the scoreboard.

I don't know if having Sully and Loadholt back will result in more points. I see no way to quantify that. I'd expect improvement but the Vikings have had a lot of poor offensive performances with them in the lineup too. I didn't say it wouldn't make a difference on the scoreboard. I just don't know.

I do think getting them back and also improving the performance the team has been getting at guard would make a difference on the scoreboard and I said so. What I didn't say was that "adding OL talent will have marginal to no impact on our passing game". Again, I don't know. I'd expect some improvement but how much would likely be determined by additional factors.

I have no confidence in Bridgewater. I'm unimpressed with Turner. The WRs aren't looking great and I don't even know who will be starting at those positions next year. The pass protection issues extend beyond the OL to the TEs and RBs so hopefully, all of that makes it easier to see why I'm uncertain about the impact OL changes would have on the scoreboard. I think having a better OL should lead to a more effective offense. Just run blocking better might even do that if nothing else changed but I would hope better protection would lead to a more effective passing game as well.

[mansquatch]

This might be controversial, but I do not see the WR getting much better next year unless the QB/OL get better. I'm sure they all have stuff to work on, but overall I do not see that group making a huge leap forward without the other two areas improving. It isn't like we are seeing a bunch of coverage sacks right now. (Heck that would be a feather in the hat of the OL at this point...)

I could see improvement here if they added an Anquoin Boldin type that could develop trust with Teddy to a point where Teddy might be willing to throw more jump balls, but for that to happen they'd either have to hit a home run with a mid-round pick (I doubt they are going WR in the 1st round) or making a huge trade or splash in FA. It just doesn't seem likely.

Teddy is highly unlikely to get replaced this season or next season. That might change, but I think the odds are low.

RB isn't going anywhere.

So if QB, RB, and WR are unlikely to experience much change, then OL and OC are all that remain.

I think bringing Sullivan and Loadholt back will add PF. I feel I was conservative in saying a 3 PF improvement, that is one field goal per game which means one more drive that gets to the 30 yard line each game. If you think about it, that isn't really a stretch. Better overall pass protection and likely an improvement in run blocking, so AP is not getting yards after contact BEHIND the LOS. That alone should get them in field goal range each week one more time. I wouldn't be surprised that if you could measure it, Teddy might get a 0.5 to 1 full second longer to make his reads on average based on how bad the pressure has been this year.

The OC situation is a complete unknown, but there is potential for a change there. The performance this year has been poor.

Another piece of this is that while looking at these groups in a vacuum can be useful for specificity, how they interact also matters. Will Teddy be better with better protection? There are all kinds of unanswered questions on this front. Just one example: Is the protection limiting the routes that the WR can run and perhaps forcing the offense to not be able to play to the strengths of the WR we have? The age old one we've had here, with a better passing game what does AP do?

I'd love to hear presser with Zimmer or Norv after the season on this kind of topic. I'm sure it would be fascinating.

[Mothman]

This might be controversial, but I do not see the WR getting much better next year unless the QB/OL get better. I'm sure they all have stuff to work on, but overall I do not see that group making a huge leap forward without the other two areas improving. It isn't like we are seeing a bunch of coverage sacks right now. (Heck that would be a feather in the hat of the OL at this point...)

I could see improvement here if they added an Anquoin Boldin type that could develop trust with Teddy to a point where Teddy might be willing to throw more jump balls, but for that to happen they'd either have to hit a home run with a mid-round pick (I doubt they are going WR in the 1st round) or making a huge trade or splash in FA. It just doesn't seem likely.

Teddy is highly unlikely to get replaced this season or next season. That might change, but I think the odds are low.

RB isn't going anywhere.

So if QB, RB, and WR are unlikely to experience much change, then OL and OC are all that remain.

I think we're as unlikely to see a change at OC as we are to see one at the starting RB or QB positions. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see some change at WR.

I think bringing Sullivan and Loadholt back will add PF. I feel I was conservative in saying a 3 PF improvement, that is one field goal per game which means one more drive that gets to the 30 yard line each game. If you think about it, that isn't really a stretch. Better overall pass protection and likely an improvement in run blocking, so AP is not getting yards after contact BEHIND the LOS. That alone should get them in field goal range each week one more time. I wouldn't be surprised that if you could measure it, Teddy might get a 0.5 to 1 full second longer to make his reads on average based on how bad the pressure has been this year.

That's entirely possible.

Another piece of this is that while looking at these groups in a vacuum can be useful for specificity, how they interact also matters. Will Teddy be better with better protection? There are all kinds of unanswered questions on this front.

That's what I was getting at above and why I think it's hard to say whether getting Sullivan and Loadholt back will make much difference on the scoreboard.

I'd love to hear presser with Zimmer or Norv after the season on this kind of topic. I'm sure it would be fascinating.

I'd love to hear that too. Heck, Id love to get a better idea of his vision for the offense.

[mondry]

This might be controversial, but I do not see the WR getting much better next year unless the QB/OL get better. I'm sure they all have stuff to work on, but overall I do not see that group making a huge leap forward without the other two areas improving. It isn't like we are seeing a bunch of coverage sacks right now. (Heck that would be a feather in the hat of the OL at this point...)

I could see improvement here if they added an Anquoin Boldin type that could develop trust with Teddy to a point where Teddy might be willing to throw more jump balls, but for that to happen they'd either have to hit a home run with a mid-round pick (I doubt they are going WR in the 1st round) or making a huge trade or splash in FA. It just doesn't seem likely.

Teddy is highly unlikely to get replaced this season or next season. That might change, but I think the odds are low.

RB isn't going anywhere.

So if QB, RB, and WR are unlikely to experience much change, then OL and OC are all that remain.

I think bringing Sullivan and Loadholt back will add PF. I feel I was conservative in saying a 3 PF improvement, that is one field goal per game which means one more drive that gets to the 30 yard line each game. If you think about it, that isn't really a stretch. Better overall pass protection and likely an improvement in run blocking, so AP is not getting yards after contact BEHIND the LOS. That alone should get them in field goal range each week one more time. I wouldn't be surprised that if you could measure it, Teddy might get a 0.5 to 1 full second longer to make his reads on average based on how bad the pressure has been this year.

The OC situation is a complete unknown, but there is potential for a change there. The performance this year has been poor.

Another piece of this is that while looking at these groups in a vacuum can be useful for specificity, how they interact also matters. Will Teddy be better with better protection? There are all kinds of unanswered questions on this front. Just one example: Is the protection limiting the routes that the WR can run and perhaps forcing the offense to not be able to play to the strengths of the WR we have? The age old one we've had here, with a better passing game what does AP do?

I'd love to hear presser with Zimmer or Norv after the season on this kind of topic. I'm sure it would be fascinating.

Ideally Norv would adapt his system but let's say that's out the window. We only really have 3 options.

#1. Draft a new QB. If this is the option we should lose all faith in this staff because these are the guys who drafted Teddy for Norv's system in the first place. It's absolutely inexcusable so I'd rather fire the whole staff than go this route.

#2 Replace Norv. If he's unwilling to budge on his system this option may be forced out of necessity.

#3 We simply try our hardest to make Teddy, Norv, and Peterson work. This is the most likely option so this is the one I'm focusing more on. Essentially we saw how good this offense could be last year with Teddy so we have to try and get back to that. In order for this to work the O-line has to be so good that we can run Peterson from the shotgun and have success. This would allow us to play strictly from the shotgun where Teddy plays his best.

This is ideal because it's also extremely important that other teams fear our passing game so much that they have to play the nickel defense on first and second down. The Vikings have only been able to create this situation consistently in their favor one time in Peterson's career in 2009 but they should look to do it again next year.

Norv isn't going to change his 7 step drops so surprise surprise once again improving the O-line is by far the top priority so we can pass protect long enough for those routes to develop. It really is broken record syndrome here but the extremely poor o-line play is really keeping us from doing EVERYTHING we want to do. At the start of the season they tried to run Peterson out of the shotgun but it was so futile that they had to stop completely so we have the PROOF of what they WANT to do, they just can't do it. Norv want's to run these 7 step drops so bad that he's STILL trying to make that work so we know that ain't changing.

I'll even give you a number, right now we're scoring 19.8 PPG's. With a massive improvement to the O-line we'd jump to 27.2 ppg or just ahead of the kansas city chiefs. Not only would our offense become more potent and score more itself, other teams would be forced to take more risk to try and keep up with us which would in turn give our elite defense more opportunity for pick 6's, strip sacks, defensive TD's, and so on. That may look like a massive jump so I understand why someone would be skeptical, however I truly believe everything would click at that point IF they're able to do what they want to do. (run peterson from the shotgun effectively and protect long enough for norv's routes to develop) Just like 2009 baby!

[Mothman]

Ideally Norv would adapt his system but let's say that's out the window. We only really have 3 options.

#1. Draft a new QB. If this is the option we should lose all faith in this staff because these are the guys who drafted Teddy for Norv's system in the first place. It's absolutely inexcusable so I'd rather fire the whole staff than go this route.

#2 Replace Norv. If he's unwilling to budge on his system this option may be forced out of necessity.

#3 We simply try our hardest to make Teddy, Norv, and Peterson work. This is the most likely option so this is the one I'm focusing more on. Essentially we saw how good this offense could be last year with Teddy so we have to try and get back to that.

They had a bad offense last year so basically, they are back to that. The difference in point production is negligible. Ditto in yards per game.

Regarding #2: Is there any real reason to doubt that Norv was hired to run his system and doesn't it logically follow that Zimmer wants to run it too? I think the bigger question in regard to the system is if Zimmer wants to budge on it (and if replacing Norv is an option he'd even consider).

I think we're probably stuck watching option #3 unfold so hopefully, they can make it work.

As for option #1, I don't know if it would make sense to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[mondry]

Regarding #2: Is there any real reason to doubt that Norv was hired to run his system and doesn't it logically follow that Zimmer wants to run it too? I think the bigger question in regard to the system is if Zimmer wants to budge on it (and if replacing Norv is an option he'd even consider).

It depends, Norv was brought in essentially so Zimmer could entirely defer the offense to someone he trusts, I don't think he particularly cared what Norv would actually do. But after two years maybe he's learned a thing or two and would feel comfortable going with someone else, that maybe didn't have 20 years or whatever it is experience. It comes down to how willing he is to go down with the ship if it comes to that.

[Mothman]

It depends, Norv was brought in essentially so Zimmer could entirely defer the offense to someone he trusts, I don't think he particularly cared what Norv would actually do.

I find that hard to believe. As a new head coach getting his first shot after a long wait, I would hope Zimmer would have a much more concrete vision for the team than that.

But after two years maybe he's learned a thing or two and would feel comfortable going with someone else, that maybe didn't have 20 years or whatever it is experience.

I don't understand you're thinking on this. If drafting a new QB would be a signal that we should lose all faith in the staff that picked Bridgewater and you'd rather see the staff fired than go that route then why would needing a new OC because Zimmer hired Norv and didn't particularly care what the offensive coordinator of his team would do be excusable in any way?

[mondry]

I find that hard to believe. As a new head coach getting his first shot after a long wait, I would hope Zimmer would have a much more concrete vision for the team than that.

Zimmer doesn't know a thing about running / coaching and offense so do you really think he's going to higher some 20 year old to run that side of the ball for him? Heck no! Getting Norv was 100% about finding a guy he could defer to to run that side of the ship that he could trust and who had experience doing it already. It wouldn't matter if Norv ran the 10 lineman Adrian Peterson wild cat offense at that point in time.

I don't understand you're thinking on this. If drafting a new QB would be a signal that we should lose all faith in the staff that picked Bridgewater and you'd rather see the staff fired than go that route then why would needing a new OC because Zimmer hired Norv and didn't particularly care what the offensive coordinator of his team would do be excusable in any way?

It is what it is and I feel like it was a reasonable thing for Zimmer to do given his offensive expertise or lack their of, we all hoped it would work out but it hasn't. https://twitter.com/Ryan_Boser/status/6 ... 89/photo/1

[Norv Zimmer]

I think they should Atleast activate heineke... if something happens to teddy I have 0 faith on Hill. He is too old too slow to be behind this O line

[mondry]

I think they should Atleast activate heineke... if something happens to teddy I have 0 faith on Hill. He is too old too slow to be behind this O line

Oh yeah if Hill has to play I'm extremely worried about the long term damage he'd sustain.

[Mothman]

Zimmer doesn't know a thing about running / coaching and offense so do you really think he's going to higher some 20 year old to run that side of the ball for him? Heck no! Getting Norv was 100% about finding a guy he could defer to to run that side of the ship that he could trust and who had experience doing it already. It wouldn't matter if Norv ran the 10 lineman Adrian Peterson wild cat offense at that point in time.

Do you seriously think Zimmer just hired Norv without caring what sort of offense he would run, how he would use the personnel, etc. ? I have no doubt Zimmer chose Turner because he trusted him and felt he could give him a certain level of autonomy but if he had zero vision for the offense of his own team beyond hiring someone and handing him the keys to that offense ... well, let's just say that would be more than a little problematic.

It is what it is and I feel like it was a reasonable thing for Zimmer to do given his offensive expertise or lack their of, we all hoped it would work out but it hasn't. https://twitter.com/Ryan_Boser/status/6 ... 89/photo/1

You did notice which offense was second on that list, right?

[Boon]

I think they should Atleast activate heineke... if something happens to teddy I have 0 faith on Hill. He is too old too slow to be behind this O line

Kid has some wheels lol.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Kid has some wheels lol.

Would be nice if he was the #2 QB now. As far as I can remember, the vikings never really developed a #2. Not the 'vet', but actually developing a new guy. I think Teddy already has injuries, one more hit from Clemmings farting on a play, and Teddy is done. Hill wont get us anywhere in the playoffs, and isnt the future.