Vikings Message Board.Com

As usual - unless we're talking about Ponder - I agree with Moth.

Cassel is trying to get the best deal possible. Nothing more. Nothing less. And who could blame him? If that deal ends up being with the Vikings, he'll be back. I don't think he's holding some kind of childish grudge against Spielman.

Ponder will NOT be the starting QB for the Vikings in 2014. To start the season or at any other time. The new coaching staff will not allow that to happen. They don't want to sour the fanbase right out of the gate.

As for making it sound like Minnesota is football Siberia and no FA worth anything would want to come here; the Vikings have a lot to offer compared to a lot of places. Mike Zimmer is well respected. He was loved by his players in Cincy from what I've read. Norv Turner is highly thought of as an OC. I'll bet a lot of players would like to come here. And remember, it's mostly about money for these guys anyway. Do you really think if the Vikings offer a FA the best deal he's going to go, "Well, they kind off mucked up the QB situation last year. I don't wanna go there." Come on.

Eli wrote: Right. Because there are no NFL teams looking for a starting quarterback.

No there are several. And that means their QB situation is NOT settled or predictable doesn't it. Just like the Vikings. Do you think there are any teams that are going, "We've got to get Matt Cassel. That's the guy that's taking us to the Super Bowl."

With any of the other QB starved teams he would likely go into the same situation he would be in here. A possible starter to begin the year until a young guy is ready. Basically, a stop-gap or a backup.

Mothman wrote: I seriously doubt he opted out for any reason so petty and since he started the last month of the season, despite the presence of other healthy QBs on the roster, I'd say he had his fair shake at the starting job.

A reason so petty? A guy who is nearing the end of his playing life being forced to sit while inferior options are played ahead of him wanting to find a more level playing field is a petty reason?

Mothman wrote: As for Ponder, it's early February and that makes it way too early to definitively declare that he's not going anywhere. He might still be a Viking next September but right now, the QB situation is fluid. The Vikings don't have any other QBs on their roster right now but they will. Free agency and the draft are still ahead of us and since we know the Vikes will have more than one QB on the roster going into camp, we also know they'll be signing some QBs. They might keep Ponder and sign 2 or they might cut or trade him and sign 3.

Jim, unless there is a miracle or Spielman gets far more aggressive, Ponder will be the best option at QB on this team. Nobody who could be drafted at #8 would be superior to start the season, and there is nobody in FA that I would say is clearly a better option than Ponder. So yes, other QB's should be on the roster by the time next season starts, but as it stands none would be a better starting option at QB heading into the season. That is a sad fact.

Mothman wrote: Yeah, because what veteran QB would want to play for a head coach with Zimmer's resumé as a DC and an unaccomplished offensive coordinator like Norv Turner? No QB has ever excelled under that guy. What veteran QB would want to play with Adrian Peterson in the backfield and Greg Jennings, Cordarelle Patterson and Kyle Rudolph as targets? They'd have to be crazy to consider a situation like that.

You're missing my point. By itself, the job is attractive and there is a lot to like about it. What *isn't* to like is how Spielman forced first Ponder and then Freeman into the situation and how Cassell was treated. *That* is what would bother most vets, especially with Spielman's history of failure at QB and the likelihood he's going to make another reach at QB in the upcoming draft that he will then want to start. Heck, I still don't put it past Spielman to resign Freeman and try to jam him in.

Mothman wrote: Why bother? If the Vikings will have to trade up from the eighth pick to get one of the bona-fide QB's in this draft, what's the point of drafting a QB later that isn't bona-fide? Isn't that just throwing a pick away?

Seriously, if no QB "worth the pick will be there when #8 rolls around" and if, as you said, "Spielman uses that pick on a QB, he'll be reaching again and this whole sequence starts over" as the Vikings "try to 'develop' their high pick", why would Murray or Mettenberger have a chance to succeed when that QB picked at #8 apparently wouldn't have such a chance? Are there only 2-3 bona-fide, viable NFL QBs in this draft or not?

You're missing my point again. Any QB drafted at #8 is going to have to be viewed as a starter out of the gate whether he is or he isn't, and whether he earns it or he doesn't. Any QB drafted later in the draft is going to be viewed as a developmental prospect who will have time to develop behind the starter. The expectations are lower, and with a guy who has enough talent and drive, in time a lower round pick can become a starter, especially if that lower round guy fell due to something like a late-season injury, and who otherwise was rated as a higher prospect heading into the draft.

Mothman wrote: I know I'm laying on the sarcasm but sheesh, it's early in the offseason to be SO negative. There are some talented QBs in this draft. There are potential trade options out there (you pointed one out) and there are potential free agent options as well, including Mighty Matt Cassel. The Vikes aren't an unappealing team for a QB to join.

The sarcasm really isn't you, especially when you're so dismissive of my points. I apologize if I'm not being clear enough in what I'm saying, but I don't think it's negative per se. It's realistic, and I've offered my idea of how Spielman can rescue things and not be forced further into a corner at QB. I think that's a positive outlook because in my view it acknowledges that there is a way out of the corner and a way the Vikings can inject hope into next year at QB.

spielman is obviously focused on the draft and i suspect he will trade up to take the qb he thinks is the guy. this move will make or break his career and the vikings hopes for several seasons if it doesn't go well. personally, i'd give up the house for manziel. if you are going to go all in make sure every single chip is in the middle that is the way i see it.

mosscarter wrote:spielman is obviously focused on the draft and i suspect he will trade up to take the qb he thinks is the guy. this move will make or break his career

Slick Rick? Nah. He's got nine lives. These guys slither from one city to the next. He'd have to go full-on Matt Millen to really hose his career. Granted, he's got a pretty good start, but that would still take some doing.

and the vikings hopes for several seasons if it doesn't go well.

But yeah, that's true.

VikingLord wrote:Jim, unless there is a miracle or Spielman gets far more aggressive, Ponder will be the best option at QB on this team.

We don't even know if Ponder will BE on the team. As I said, it's early Feburary. The season is half a year away. They could cut or trade Ponder. The NFL offseason has barely begun in earnest at this point. Free agency is still a month away!

Nobody who could be drafted at #8 would be superior to start the season and there is nobody in FA that I would say is clearly a better option than Ponder. So yes, other QB's should be on the roster by the time next season starts, but as it stands none would be a better starting option at QB heading into the season. That is a sad fact.

It's an assumption, not a fact. Do you see the contradiction in your post? You made it clear that you consider Cassel a superior QB to Ponder and then said there is nobody in FA that you would say is clearly a better option than Ponder. Is Cassel not a free agent? Has he said he'd be unwilling to re-sign with the Vikings? We both know the answers to those questions so there's at least one free agent who could be back with the Vikings next year and who, based on your comments, you would clearly consider a better option than Ponder.

Personally, I think the key words in your paragraph above are "as it stands". Things aren't going to stay as they stand. Free agency and the draft loom ahead .

You're missing my point. By itself, the job is attractive and there is a lot to like about it. What *isn't* to like is how Spielman forced first Ponder and then Freeman into the situation and how Cassell was treated.

Cassel was treated just fine. People need to stop acting like he was a victim of anything other then his own erratic performances, both last season and in prior seasons. I'll give you that both he and Ponder had reason to be frustrated by how the Freeman situation was handled but that was a highly unusual set of circumstances and it's not something likely to be repeated. Beyond that, Cassel played pretty well against Pittsburgh and the coaching staff rewarded him with a start the following week, even though Ponder was cleared to play. Cassel layed an egg and the team understandably went back to the much younger QB they had already invested heavily in developing instead of sticking with a player who had just played basically the same kind of football that got him booted out of Kansas City. They stuck with Ponder for a while but ultimately, went back to Cassel and he got his chance to start for the last month of the season, where he was as erratic as Ponder. Sure, the highs were higher, as in the game vs. Philly, but once again Cassel followed a good performance with an awful one and he wasn't very good against Detroit either. The idea that he was a far superior option who was screwed and victimized by not getting the starting job just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. He posted the lowest single game passer rating for the Vikings last year. He was QB in 3 of the 4 games with the lowest scoring output by the offense. His passer rating for the season was just slightly better than Ponder's and his career passer rating, despite 6 additional years of experience, is also only slightly better. It also contains some seasons in which his rating was worse than Ponder has had in any of his 3 seasons. He clearly wasn't given the chance to earn the starting job at the beginning of the season because the Vikings (correctly) didn't view him as a viable long term option. They still had hope Ponder could be that option, but I doubt they do now.

You're missing my point again. Any QB drafted at #8 is going to have to be viewed as a starter out of the gate whether he is or he isn't, and whether he earns it or he doesn't. Any QB drafted later in the draft is going to be viewed as a developmental prospect who will have time to develop behind the starter.

The expectations are lower, and with a guy who has enough talent and drive, in time a lower round pick can become a starter, especially if that lower round guy fell due to something like a late-season injury, and who otherwise was rated as a higher prospect heading into the draft.

Okay, fair enough. I see what you meant now but the Vikings won't be obligated to start a rookie QB immediately, regardless of where they draft him and if they do draft one at #8, who knows whether that QB will prove capable of being an effective starter in his first season or not? I certainly don't and no offense, but I don't believe you know either because I don't believe anybody knows. A rookie is likely to experience some growing pains but the team is likely to experience them anyway since they have a new coaching staff and a roster that certainly doesn't appear Super Bowl-ready.

The sarcasm really isn't you, especially when you're so dismissive of my points.

It's an expression of my frustration with your cynicism about this and the way you're using assumptions to support it. We don't know why Cassel opted out of his contract of if he'll be willing to re-sign with the Vikings. We don't know if Ponder will be with the team. We don't know which QBs the Vikes will add to their roster or how they will be added (although assuming they'll draft one is a pretty safe bet). We don't know which QBs will be available when the Vikes pick in the draft or whether the Vikes will trade up (or down) to draft a QB. We also don't know whether they will make a trade for a QB this offseason or sign a QB in free agency. We don't even know if a veteran QB will unexpectedly become available in free agency. Maybe Sam Bradford will be the Vikings QB next year. We're a long, long way from knowing if Ponder will be the best option at QB on the team when the season begins.

I apologize if I'm not being clear enough in what I'm saying, but I don't think it's negative per se. It's realistic, and I've offered my idea of how Spielman can rescue things and not be forced further into a corner at QB. I think that's a positive outlook because in my view it acknowledges that there is a way out of the corner and a way the Vikings can inject hope into next year at QB.

The idea that Spielman has options to address the QB situation IS positive but you've wrapped it in a viewpoint that seems excessively cynical.

The only team that would take him is a 5th grade flag football team


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As is the norm, for most of the constant cynics on this board, there is lots of criticism spewed daily with little or no basis and certainly no viable solutions ever offered. Now that Frazier is gone the "soup of the day" turns to Spielman bashing. I just can not comprehend the "hatred" towards Spielman by several of them mostly based on the "he reached for Ponder". Wow he reached for a QB and tried to get him every opprotunity to prove himself worthy of becoming a franchise type QB. That, as we all know, (and are reminded of several times a day), did not work out. By bringing in Cassell and Freeman he has at least been trying to solve that QB problem that almost all other teams are faced with. He has and is putting together very good drafts and has added a host of quality young players to build this team around. I also would commend him for firing the Frazier Regime and starting over by hiring, what appears to be, a very good HC and a very good OC.
He laid out his plan to have this team turned around in three years. Well this will be his third year and he has made massive changes in an attempt to meet that goal. I will be amazed if this team is not in contention for a North title this year and at least I will wait until the free agency period, the draft and all of the trades have been made before I cast judgement on him unlike so many fans have already done.

Not trying to poke anyone with a stick, but Mothman, and some others keep saying that nobody that could start can/will be available at #8. Im not a huge Manziel fan, but I think most consider him one, and alot think Bortles could be as well. So Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel. Everyone thinks there is no way any of those guys drop down to the Vikes at 8?

I know there are always some trades going on, so can't look entirely at just who is ahead of us right now. But I think there is at least a 50/50 chance one of those guys is still there at 8.

7 picks before us.

1. Texas - Keep hearing that Clowney is the guy. They want to pair him up with JJ Watt.
2. Rams - Unless they trade pick away, they won't be drafting QB. Set at QB with Bradford
3. Jax - Prob the first and only team that you can guarantee will be picking QB. Prob Bridgewater? or also hear they like Bortles.
4. Browns - I would say 50/50 on QB here, but with Hoyer and still having Weedon, might the new coaching regime try to get something more out of those guys, maybe pull one of the others out of 2nd/3rd round.
5. Raiders - The most unpredictable team on draft day always. And coming off of the huge disappointment last time they drafted a QB so early, they may not be ready to go through that again.
6. Atlanta - Set at QB with Ryan
7. TB - Rumors seem to be that they are happy with Glennon, and will prob go Edge Rusher or OT.

I the Vikes there is a decent chance the Vikings have an opportunity to get one of these 3 guys. Whether any of them are good enough to be the guy for our team. Or whether the guy to really make things happen is hiding somewhere in rounds 2-5, who knows. I just think we have written off the opportunity to draft Bridgewater, Bortles, or Manziel a bit prematurely. Thoughts?

KSViking wrote:Not trying to poke anyone with a stick, but Mothman, and some others keep saying that nobody that could start can/will be available at #8

I haven't said that. I've been debating with other fans who are saying that.

By the way, feel free to call me Jim. Believe it or not, Mothman isn't my given name!

Regarding the rest of your post:

I'm not a huge Manziel fan, but I think most consider him one, and alot think Bortles could be as well. So Bridgewater, Bortles, and Manziel. Everyone thinks there is no way any of those guys drop down to the Vikes at 8?

I think it could go either way. One of them could drop or they could all be gone but Bridgewater, Manziel and Bortles aren't certain to end up as the best pro QBs to come out of this draft so the Vikings will have other viable options as well.

Maybe we can trade him plus a 3rd rounder for Ryan Mallet.

Eli wrote: Slick Rick? Nah. He's got nine lives. These guys slither from one city to the next. He'd have to go full-on Matt Millen to really hose his career. Granted, he's got a pretty good start, but that would still take some doing.
But yeah, that's true.

Funny. The best GM we have had since Finks. Has done a damn good job in the 2 drafts he has been in charge of. And you somehow have decided he is no good.

mmvikes wrote: Funny. The best GM we have had since Finks. Has done a damn good job in the 2 drafts he has been in charge of. And you somehow have decided he is no good.

Ok, now it's two drafts. Apparently he doesn't get any blame for Ponder anymore either.
You'd think Zygi hired him two years ago and the guy wasn't even with the team before that. What exactly what he doing here? Twiddling his thumbs the entire time?
Frazier takes over, Spielman gets more say, told it's a three year rebuild. We're starting year four. After three years of his chosen franchise QB. Needing a new QB and a new coach. Needing starters all over the place, with a pretty noticeable lack of depth everywhere.

Mothman wrote: It's an assumption, not a fact. Do you see the contradiction in your post? You made it clear that you consider Cassel a superior QB to Ponder and then said there is nobody in FA that you would say is clearly a better option than Ponder. Is Cassel not a free agent? Has he said he'd be unwilling to re-sign with the Vikings? We both know the answers to those questions so there's at least one free agent who could be back with the Vikings next year and who, based on your comments, you would clearly consider a better option than Ponder.

I don't believe Cassel has any interest in playing for the Vikings again, thus, he's not a viable veteran FA as it concerns the Vikings.

Mothman wrote: Cassel was treated just fine. People need to stop acting like he was a victim of anything other then his own erratic performances, both last season and in prior seasons. I'll give you that both he and Ponder had reason to be frustrated by how the Freeman situation was handled but that was a highly unusual set of circumstances and it's not something likely to be repeated.

Speaking of contradictions, don't you find it contradictory to say that it's unfair to players if a team "plays to lose" in order to secure a higher draft position, but it's not unfair for a GM to jam a guy into the starting QB spot a week after acquiring him and in the middle of a season where the other two guys who went through training camp and played in games sit? That's your idea of someone being treated just fine?

Mothman wrote: The idea that he was a far superior option who was screwed and victimized by not getting the starting job just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. He posted the lowest single game passer rating for the Vikings last year. He was QB in 3 of the 4 games with the lowest scoring output by the offense. His passer rating for the season was just slightly better than Ponder's and his career passer rating, despite 6 additional years of experience, is also only slightly better. It also contains some seasons in which his rating was worse than Ponder has had in any of his 3 seasons. He clearly wasn't given the chance to earn the starting job at the beginning of the season because the Vikings (correctly) didn't view him as a viable long term option. They still had hope Ponder could be that option, but I doubt they do now.

Whether Cassel was a "far" superior option or just a superior option, he was better than Ponder. I don't think even you could argue otherwise at this point.

Mothman wrote: Okay, fair enough. I see what you meant now but the Vikings won't be obligated to start a rookie QB immediately, regardless of where they draft him and if they do draft one at #8, who knows whether that QB will prove capable of being an effective starter in his first season or not? I certainly don't and no offense, but I don't believe you know either because I don't believe anybody knows. A rookie is likely to experience some growing pains but the team is likely to experience them anyway since they have a new coaching staff and a roster that certainly doesn't appear Super Bowl-ready.

Of course they are not obligated to start him, but don't you think drafting a guy at #8 or #12 creates some expectations that the Vikes will have to consider starting the guy at some point? If not, by definition he's a developmental prospect, and developmental prospects should not be taken at #8.

Mothman wrote: It's an expression of my frustration with your cynicism about this and the way you're using assumptions to support it. We don't know why Cassel opted out of his contract of if he'll be willing to re-sign with the Vikings. We don't know if Ponder will be with the team. We don't know which QBs the Vikes will add to their roster or how they will be added (although assuming they'll draft one is a pretty safe bet). We don't know which QBs will be available when the Vikes pick in the draft or whether the Vikes will trade up (or down) to draft a QB. We also don't know whether they will make a trade for a QB this offseason or sign a QB in free agency. We don't even know if a veteran QB will unexpectedly become available in free agency. Maybe Sam Bradford will be the Vikings QB next year. We're a long, long way from knowing if Ponder will be the best option at QB on the team when the season begins.

Maybe Sam Bradford will be the Vikings QB next year?

I really don't know what to say to that. If that is a viable possibility in your mind then I can see where you are coming from. Clearly, *anything* is possible in that case.

Mothman wrote: The idea that Spielman has options to address the QB situation IS positive but you've wrapped it in a viewpoint that seems excessively cynical.

Let's revisit this topic then at the beginning of next season. I am saying that unless Spielman makes a trade for either a viable vet or trades up in the draft, Ponder not only will still be with the Vikings at the start of next season, he'll be the starter at QB.

I'll also predict that if Spielman stays put at #8 and takes a QB, unless that QB is Bridgewater or Manziel, they will be a complete flameout and Spielman will not be the GM of the Vikings 3 years from the start of next season. Ditto for any move up in the early 2nd or even back into the late 1st to take a QB. Said QB will almost certainly be a flameout as well. That's my prediction, based on my assumptions and cynicism. Take it for what it's worth, but I'll be happy to revisit it.

Everybody's buddy Sid Hartman says that Turner will give Ponder another shot next season. The Vikings WILL NOT seek a trade for Ponder as this horribly named thread states. Not really news to anyone that reads crappy media reports with any level of discernment. Actually, it's pretty fitting that Hartman is the one to report on this--he comes from a time when journalism had some standards. Anyways:

http://www.startribune.com/sports/vikin ... 69861.html

Norv Turner said:

“The hard thing in this league is you can be playing good and doing a lot of good things and at that position, if you have a negative play or a sack, fumble or interception, a play like that at the wrong time, it takes away all of the good things you’ve done,” Turner said. “I’ve been impressed with Christian and the things he does in terms of his movement. He moves extremely well on the run. He’s made a lot of big plays. The starting point with any quarterback to me is eliminating those [bad] plays. That would be one of our starting points.”

Turner was asked if he believes an offense can succeed without an elite QB.

“The guys I have been around that are so-called franchise quarterbacks, weren’t considered franchise quarterbacks until they started winning,” Turner said. “You have to get a guy in that everyone believes in and you start out and put good people around him and find out how far you can go.