Vikings Message Board.Com

PurpleKoolaid wrote: Hah, I hate him as much as you. But I do like getting to the playoffs, and Fraizer will never get us there. Reguardless of who we buy and who ignores our HCs plan.

If Frazier had been head coach in 2009 instead of BC, I think we'd have made it to the Super Bowl...

yesmanfan wrote: childress was a much better head coach because he understood the nfl and situational football and he wasn't stuck to some 1980's ultraconservative approach. however, childress had a fatal flaw, he was a super unlikeable person. took the attitude that i am better than you. terrible personality.

Are you kidding? This biggest knock on Frazier right now is that his Offense looks eerily similar to the KAO...

Edit: Gramatical change - "familiar" (sic) to "similar"

dead_poet wrote:... Which A.J. Green, Brandon Lloyd, Randy Moss, Jordy Nelson, Greg Jennings, Marques Coleston, Miles Austin, Dez Bryant-caliber receiver do you suggest we throw it to?

Let me ask you this:

Picking from your list: Lloyd (4th rd), Colston (7th?), Austin (undrafted). Jennings and Nelson 2nd rounders (but who expected Nelson to blossom?).

Have the Vikings, other than Harvin, simply been unlucky in that our drafted WR's since Randy Moss have sucked? I mean the list certainly sucks to date (Jarius Wright, Greg Childs, Jaymar Johnson, Aundrae Allison, Sidney Rice, Chandler Williams, etc.) - but were they ALL that bad? Not ONE could have been developed into a Jordy Nelson?

My position is that this coaching staff is way, way below par in developing individual players. Who on our team - that our coaches have developed - is currently exceeding your expectations like a Jordy Nelson? Like a Marques Colston? Like a Miles Austin?

THAT will be the downfall of this coaching staff IMO. Failure to develop individual players.

psjordan wrote: Let me ask you this:

Picking from your list: Lloyd (4th rd), Colston (7th?), Austin (undrafted). Jennings and Nelson 2nd rounders (but who expected Nelson to blossom?).

Have the Vikings, other than Harvin, simply been unlucky in that our drafted WR's since Randy Moss have sucked? I mean the list certainly sucks to date (Jarius Wright, Greg Childs, Jaymar Johnson, Aundrae Allison, Sidney Rice, Chandler Williams, etc.) - but were they ALL that bad? Not ONE could have been developed into a Jordy Nelson?

My position is that this coaching staff is way, way below par in developing individual players. Who on our team - that our coaches have developed - is currently exceeding your expectations like a Jordy Nelson? Like a Marques Colston? Like a Miles Austin?

THAT will be the downfall of this coaching staff IMO. Failure to develop individual players.

Well, those receivers had the opportunity to go elsewhere and failed to do anything. So I don't know about placing blame on coaches for their (lack of) impact careers. I think it's a matter of being unable to properly evaluate receiver talent (especially outside of the first round....though with Williamson in there I'm not 100% sure their evaluation of first round WR talent in recent years is all that good either).

To answer your question, Phil Loadholt, John Sullivan, Ponder (to the extent that he has clearly improved from last season) and Erin Henderson are a couple that come to mind. But they've missed on a lot of receivers over the years. Rice was probably the best out of the group. It's unfortunate he can't stay healthy and left. A healthy Rice with Harvin would go a long ways to improving our group of receivers.

psjordan wrote:Let me ask you this:

Picking from your list: Lloyd (4th rd), Colston (7th?), Austin (undrafted). Jennings and Nelson 2nd rounders (but who expected Nelson to blossom?).

Have the Vikings, other than Harvin, simply been unlucky in that our drafted WR's since Randy Moss have sucked? I mean the list certainly sucks to date (Jarius Wright, Greg Childs, Jaymar Johnson, Aundrae Allison, Sidney Rice, Chandler Williams, etc.) - but were they ALL that bad? Not ONE could have been developed into a Jordy Nelson?

My position is that this coaching staff is way, way below par in developing individual players. Who on our team - that our coaches have developed - is currently exceeding your expectations like a Jordy Nelson? Like a Marques Colston? Like a Miles Austin?

Harvin. He wasn't a sure thing by any means. There was no doubt he was a gifted player but there were questions about his size, attitude and ability to adjust his game to the pros.

Like Harvin, Nelson was a gifted player when drafted. He was a high second round pick coming off a huge year in college in which he finished as a finalist for the Biletnikoff Award. He had the size and speed to succeed, the production to suggest he would do well... he's not exactly a gem the Packers plucked from the late rounds.

I'm not sure how much Colston was really "developed" either. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure he received good coaching and improved his skills over time but he had over 1000 yards receiving in his first season and was catching close to or above 100 yards receiving in a game by week 3 of his rookie year. The guy set school records and had great production in college but he went to Hofstra which is probably why he ended up being drafted so late. I think that's a case of good scouting finding a gem, not a case where pro coaches took a raw talent and molded him into an excellent receiver. If they did so in just a matter of months, they did a hell of a job!

THAT will be the downfall of this coaching staff IMO. Failure to develop individual players

Rice wasn't a bad receiver at all, just a player who couldn't stay healthy. Like Nelson, he was drafted in the second round and he could have been that kind of WR for the Vikes if he could have stayed healthy. I'd say it's way too early to say Childs or Wright suck. Burleson was drafted after Moss and was a good receiver. He had a 1000+ yard season with the Vikes and he's still a productive NFL WR. The one that really hurts is Williamson. That turned out to be a complete misfire with a pick that should have landed the team an excellent player.

Players like Jaymar Johnson, Stephen Burton, Chandler Williams and Aundrae Allison are all mid-to late round picks that simply didn't make it in the NFL. It's not like other teams snapped these coachable talents up and succeeded with them where the Vikes coaching staff failed. Late round players and rookie free agents like Colston and Austin that develop into top WRs are rare. When they succeed, teams are lucky. They deserve some credit for scouting those players out but that only goes so far. After all, if the Cowboys had known how good Austin could be, wouldn't they have actually drafted him?

I think we should look at scouting before coaching when it comes to the lack of WR talent on the Vikes but I also think we need to consider the draft investment in the position. How much talent has actually been drafted at WR since the Vikes selected Moss in '98 and when were those players drafted?

1999: No WR drafted
2000: Troy Walters (Round 5)
2001: Cedric James (R4)
2002: No WR drafted
2003: Nate Burleson (R3); Keenan Howry (R7)
2004: No WR drafted
2005: Troy Williamson (R1)
2006: No WR drafted
2007: Sidney Rice (R2); Chandler Williams (R7)
2008: Jaymar Johnson (R6)
2009: Percy Harvin (R1)
2010: No WR drafted (unless you count Webb)
2011: Stephen Burton (R7)
2012: Jarius Wright (R4); Greg Childs (R4)

Prior to this year, the Vikings have only invested 2 picks higher than a 6th or 7th rounder in WRs since the Tice era. How many players on that list do we think truly failed because the coaches were unable to develop them and how many failed because they simply weren't good enough, couldn't stay healthy, etc.?

Mothman wrote: Prior to this year, the Vikings have only invested 2 picks higher than a 6th or 7th rounder in WRs since the Tice era. How many players on that list do we think truly failed because the coaches were unable to develop them and how many failed because they simply weren't good enough, couldn't stay healthy, etc.?

I think its a few parts bad luck and a few parts bad drafting/failure to invest at the position.

WR is one area where there always seems to be a lot of vets available in FA. Despite that, the Vikes have not really gone after any of the ones that could step in and contribute significantly. It's been 2nd-tier-fest for a long time and it shows.

Even with the acquisition of Simpson the Vikes really have no idea what they're getting. They have a guy with awesome potential who is serving out a 3-game suspension (and for a team that might be lucky to win 3 games all year, that's significant) and who they inked to all of a 1-year deal.

If the Vikes are serious about improving at WR they're going to have to either get more aggressive in FA and/or the draft, or find someone who can steal the Packers scouting reports. The Packers seem to find gems deep into the draft every year.

80 PurplePride 84 wrote:I want Bill Cowher.

But it'll be some first timer again.

My biggest fear is that Andy Reid gets fired and we hire him.

First suggestions for coaches I've noticed. But judging from a glance, maybe I should be banned for starting this thread.


I don't think realistic names will start popping up till late season, anyway.

losperros wrote:I keep thinking about Tice's first interview after he was just hired as the Vikings HC. He was asked how long he would have to turn the team around. Tice's answer: "I hope I make it past this interview."

LOL! Somehow I missed this when you posted it. That's a great quote.

headless_norseman wrote:First suggestions for coaches I've noticed. But judging from a glance, maybe I should be banned for starting this thread.

No, it just seems premature and honestly, a little too pessimistic two games into the season with the team 1-1.

yesmanfan wrote:
childress was a much better head coach because he understood the nfl and situational football and he wasn't stuck to some 1980's ultraconservative approach.

Sorry, but that statement undermines your credibility with me. Childress understood situational football? He was the least adaptive head coach I have ever seen.

psjordan wrote:THAT will be the downfall of this coaching staff IMO. Failure to develop individual players.

This is what I'm looking to see from Frazier but not so much from the WR's as the defensive secondary. As a guy who is credited with turning around a terrible Colts secondary, he's done very little in developing anyone in the secondary through his tenure as defensive coordinator and now head coach. I've listed the revolving door of secondary players that have come through here so I won't do that again and I know the main argument is lack of talent but I believe after this most recent draft (where we spent a 1st and 3rd on the secondary) if we don't see improvement after this season, and we don't see improvement from 2nd rounder Cook, that's simply too many high picks (when you add in guys like 2nd rounder Tyrell Johnson, 2nd rounder Cedric Griffin, highly paid FA Madieu Williams, 3rd rounder Marcus McCauley, 3rd rounder Asher Allen, oh see there I go listing again...) to have none of them pan out.

It's premature at this juncture to expect a lot from the young secondary but if there's somewhere that I think will show whether Frazier should stick around or not, it will be how this secondary performs over the remainder of the season.

yesmanfan wrote: childress was a much better head coach because he understood the nfl and situational football and he wasn't stuck to some 1980's ultraconservative approach. however, childress had a fatal flaw, he was a super unlikeable person. took the attitude that i am better than you. terrible personality.

Did you even watch the Vikings when he coached? I didn't call his offense 1990s big ten for nothing. The guy was just as conservative as Frazier and had NO grasp of situation football.

I guess this is "in my day" talk. Because Childress was just as big of a buffoon as the clowns we have now...

headless_norseman wrote:First suggestions for coaches I've noticed. But judging from a glance, maybe I should be banned for starting this thread.

No, it just seems premature and honestly, a little too pessimistic two games into the season with the team 1-1.[/quote]


I should have also mentioned the last 6-8 games of the season. Brutal. No surprise if there's a major season ending losing streak coming this way.

Demi wrote:

Did you even watch the Vikings when he coached? I didn't call his offense 1990s big ten for nothing. The guy was just as conservative as Frazier and had NO grasp of situation football.

I guess this is "in my day" talk. Because Childress was just as big of a buffoon as the clowns we have now...

And Fraizer does? They are equally sucky. But Childress won some games. I seriously doubt Fraizer will. Im tired of everyone blaming Childress for the mess Fraizer and Spileman both helped create. The blame really goes to the Wilfs for being clueless about football management. And this run, short pass O Mustgrave is running is very similar to what childress ran.

Yes, they're both bad coaches. Childress won because he had a hall of fame quarterback...and a guy as his DC who got a ring in Pittsburgh...and left the team in terrible shape because of TJoke. Just like Frazier/Spielman are going to leave the team in terrible shape at the most important position.

BGM wrote: Sorry, but that statement undermines your credibility with me. Childress understood situational football? He was the least adaptive head coach I have ever seen.

Agree +1.....One of the many if not the biggest problems with the bald wonder (and his O.C) was their refussal to change ANYTHING. It was their KAO and neither one were going to change it no matter the score or time left on the clock and it really did'nt matter whether it properly used the players skills or not. Unfortunately, while the names have changed it certainly looks like our current H.C. and O.C. are no different. Their idea of imagination is (1st series: run, run, 2 yard pass)....(2nd series: run, run, 2yard pass)....and finally their imagination shows on the 3rd series when they go (run, 2 yard pass, run). Its the same KAO all over again and its not working any better for this group than it did for the prior braintrust.