Vikings Message Board.Com

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CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 5:49 am

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:49 pm
I don't like Arnold as much as several other players available at 11. I'm guessing he wouldn't even be BPA at 23. I'm confident Nix and Penix won't be available at 23. It's possible I just don't think it will happen. So I stand by my Nix or Penix or McCarthy or Maye at 11 and BPA position of need at 23.

I forget your personnel board. I assume Nix. If the other 3 are there at 23 skip and pick BPA? Might as well go with Penix at 23 and then we get the dual Nix deal. If Penix is picked I picture 1st day of camp and a limp off the field. Then KOC will say it's a little tweak. I heard that before. That means 2 seasons gone.

It's very unlikely Penix or Nix will be available at 23. It's very likely a great defensive prospect will be available at 23. This isn't brain science or rocket surgery.

cmoss84 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 2:27 am Let's say all QBs go before us for whatever reasons. Marvin gone too. At that point, who would you want to slide to us?

Interesting Question and if you believe the smokescreens of the giants taking a QB and both the Broncos and Raiders trade ahead of us it could happen. It won't happen, but if it did happen perhaps Dallas Turner or Byron Murphy II.

This is an INSANELY top heavy QB draft class. So it’s the perfect chance for Kwesi to draft 2 QBs of the alleged “Top 6”. That won’t happen because, in doing so, Kwesi would be admitting that he screwed up the last few years and is shooting at fish in a barrel now. No chance he puts his pride aside and draft 2 QBs early even though it’s a beautiful time to do so. And I don’t want to hear anything about rivalries and ruining the top guy’s confidence by bringing in another potential starter. Iron sharpens iron, and if our presumed top guy crumbles under the pressure of a QB competition… then he’ll never be able to take us where we need to go in the first place. I doubt this, but if the Vikings could draft Maye at 11, and then Penix at 23… I’ll pleasure Kwesi in ways he’s never imagined.

BeforeIDie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 17, 2024 9:43 pm This is an INSANELY top heavy QB draft class. So it’s the perfect chance for Kwesi to draft 2 QBs of the alleged “Top 6”. That won’t happen because, in doing so, Kwesi would be admitting that he screwed up the last few years and is shooting at fish in a barrel now. No chance he puts his pride aside and draft 2 QBs early even though it’s a beautiful time to do so. And I don’t want to hear anything about rivalries and ruining the top guy’s confidence by bringing in another potential starter. Iron sharpens iron, and if our presumed top guy crumbles under the pressure of a QB competition… then he’ll never be able to take us where we need to go in the first place. I doubt this, but if the Vikings could draft Maye at 11, and then Penix at 23… I’ll pleasure Kwesi in ways he’s never imagined.

He should draft 2. Even go for a guy like Milton or Pratt later in round 4 or 5. But Kwesi hasn't shown much in the draft. No team drafts multiple QBs in the 1st round the same year so he won't do it either. It would be a different approach. That would take a GM with vision and a set of balls. I think it has a better chance than the pick one and hope for the next 3 or 4 seasons and then another ect. I would have just given Cousins 50 million a year and rolled with that. It's not like our offense is packed with all pros and any QB will thrive. We saw that act last year. Looked like one of the worst offenses we ever put out there. That was with 2 supposedly great WRs. That 3-0 game will live in infamy. Never thought that was possible. Unless the weather caused it.

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Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 9:42 am This is a very interesting read.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/hall-famer ... 47405.html

That was a good read and thanks. I'll paste what really stands out to me.
He said, “What’s so pervasive today is that the ignorance of the so-called experts in the media is breathtaking, No. 1. And No. 2, they fail to tell their listeners or readers that they don’t have at least 45 percent of the information that the clubs have. They don’t have the medical; they don’t have the psychological; they should not have, unfortunately too many get it, snippets of the intellectual testing and they absolutely don’t have any readout on the visits that the players make and the interviews that they have with the coaching staff.

Most important, he said, is that “three clubs could look at the same quarterback entirely differently.” Just as they do for other players.

We get the same thing on this board. It's just fan discussions and we only take a guess on what little info we have. None of us has any idea how these QBs will pan out. I wanted Mac Jones when he fell to us. If we did that it would set us back at least 5 years and probably more. But he might have played differently here like he did his 1st season with the Pats. Either he forgot how to play the position or scouts figured him out and took away what he did best. I have no idea because I'm not watching hours of coaches film and don't understand the game to that level.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 10:10 am OK, so your main criticism of my post is that just because nothing was done at the QB position over the last few years to fill in behind Cousins doesn't mean KAM and KOC didn't try to do something?

I'll grant you I don't know what was or wasn't done to rectify that situation, but can we at least both agree that nothing beyond extending Cousins another 2 years was in fact done?

I typically don't criticize posts (or try not to), and I wasn't criticizing yours. We all have opinions and I'm fine with that.
I just don't see what KAM could have done in the last two years to realistically address the situation. Kirk was firm on two more guaranteed years. KAM did not think that was good for the franchise. I'm OK with that assessment.

I'm looking forward to the permutations this draft will certainly take on. For the Vikes and several other teams.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:49 pm I don't like Arnold as much as several other players available at 11. I'm guessing he wouldn't even be BPA at 23. I'm confident Nix and Penix won't be available at 23. It's possible I just don't think it will happen. So I stand by my Nix or Penix or McCarthy or Maye at 11 and BPA position of need at 23.

At CB, I really like Cooper DeJean. Arnold is good too but like you I'm not totally sold on him.

At QB I believe it is likely KAM will try to trade up but I'm now leaning towards believing he won't pay any price necessary to do it. I suspect the most he'll give up is a straight-up swap of 11 and 23 for whatever, and he'll only do that if the QB he wants is available and not just for any of the top prospects. So I'm feeling better about KAM's evaluation of the prospects and risk-reward than I was last week.

I could see any of McCarthy, Maye, Penix or Nix available at 11. Doubtful all of them would be there, but I think at least two of that group will be and one should be for sure.

If all four were available I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Vikings taking a particular player from that group. I think I could talk myself into being excited about any of them, but I usually do that with all of the players the Vikings end up drafting. But of that group I think Maye, Penix and Nix have the strongest track records of production (not necessarily in that order). I think Maye and Penix have shown the most consistent ability to threaten the entire field, while Nix has shown an ability to handle pressure well and make good decisions in those situations at a very high level. McCarthy is the least proven of the group and has shown the least evidence that he can alter a defensive gameplan. He demonstrates a high level of commitment and leadership and I'll think he'll work his a$$ off as a pro, though, so he's the hardest of that group to evaluate.

I really hope that between KOC, McCown and KAM and the length of time this group of QB prospects has been under evaluation that whoever they end up choosing becomes the next great pro QB.

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:41 pm I typically don't criticize posts (or try not to), and I wasn't criticizing yours. We all have opinions and I'm fine with that.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying that.

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:41 pm I just don't see what KAM could have done in the last two years to realistically address the situation. Kirk was firm on two more guaranteed years. KAM did not think that was good for the franchise. I'm OK with that assessment.

The way I understand it, the last extension Cousins signed was the 2 year deal and both the Vikings and Cousins wanted that deal over that term. If I have a criticism of that deal, it is that KAM had an opportunity to cut bait at that time and go in a different direction at QB either in the draft or free agency or maybe a combination of both. Maybe the Wilfs liked Cousins and forced his hand? I don't know, but there was an opportunity at that time to shift gears and KAM declined for whatever reason.

But, that also set the doomsday clock ahead by 2 full seasons before the next decision would have to be made, and while there are rumors that the Vikings attempted to make some moves at QB during that time, the fact remains they did nothing other than to spend a 5th rounder(?) on Jaren Hall. There were also rumors that Cousins was willing to extend again over a longer term and the Vikings declined. This was before Cousins was injured, too, so if accurate that seems like an intentional decision with well-understood consequences.

And then we arrived at doomsday and there were a lot of reports that the Vikings wanted Cousins back for another 2 years while the Falcons were willing to offer him 4. And this against the backdrop of last season where, once Cousins went out, the Vikings experienced a literal horror show at QB.

So what could KAM have done differently? If you're suggesting nothing realistic could have been done to alter their fortunes, I don't think I can agree with that. If you're suggesting that there was no alternative that would have obviously changed things for the better, I would be more inclined to agree with that. Fundamentally, I don't think KAM gets off the hook just because there wasn't a better obvious alternative, though. From where I sit, KAM went down a path with an obvious end and allowed himself to reach that end without any viable alternative. And thus here we are where his hand is going to be forced now. Lucky for all of us, this is a supposedly "deep" QB draft class.

I do commend KAM for picking up Sam Darnold. While I don't think he would have done that under other circumstances, Darnold is a solid choice to bridge the gap no matter what else is done this year at the QB position. I think Darnold will do well with KOC as his coach and I think the Vikings provide enough offensive weapons to make his job easier.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:43 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:49 pm I don't like Arnold as much as several other players available at 11. I'm guessing he wouldn't even be BPA at 23. I'm confident Nix and Penix won't be available at 23. It's possible I just don't think it will happen. So I stand by my Nix or Penix or McCarthy or Maye at 11 and BPA position of need at 23.

At CB, I really like Cooper DeJean. Arnold is good too but like you I'm not totally sold on him.

At QB I believe it is likely KAM will try to trade up but I'm now leaning towards believing he won't pay any price necessary to do it. I suspect the most he'll give up is a straight-up swap of 11 and 23 for whatever, and he'll only do that if the QB he wants is available and not just for any of the top prospects. So I'm feeling better about KAM's evaluation of the prospects and risk-reward than I was last week.

I could see any of McCarthy, Maye, Penix or Nix available at 11. Doubtful all of them would be there, but I think at least two of that group will be and one should be for sure.

If all four were available I'm not sure how I'd feel about the Vikings taking a particular player from that group. I think I could talk myself into being excited about any of them, but I usually do that with all of the players the Vikings end up drafting. But of that group I think Maye, Penix and Nix have the strongest track records of production (not necessarily in that order). I think Maye and Penix have shown the most consistent ability to threaten the entire field, while Nix has shown an ability to handle pressure well and make good decisions in those situations at a very high level. McCarthy is the least proven of the group and has shown the least evidence that he can alter a defensive gameplan. He demonstrates a high level of commitment and leadership and I'll think he'll work his a$$ off as a pro, though, so he's the hardest of that group to evaluate.

I really hope that between KOC, McCown and KAM and the length of time this group of QB prospects has been under evaluation that whoever they end up choosing becomes the next great pro QB.

Judging from what I hear Quinyon Mitchell is my preferred CB with DeJean just slightly behind followed by Arnold, but I want a DT more. Newton or Murphy II would be great. It's obvious to me that a great defensive prospect will be available at 23, but it could very easily end up with no good QB prospects available at 23.

You know I'm one of the biggest Nix fans around and I think so many people dismiss him irrationally due to his low ADOT. His ADOT was low because the game plan called for it to be low. I think McCarthy gets dismissed unfairly a lot as well. Michigan had a great running game and simply didn't need to pass much. That's not McCarthy's fault. When he did pass he was very successful. He's got a big arm and is very athletic and young with great potential to get better. Due to that I have McCarthy third just ahead of Nix, followed by Penix and Maye. If we draft any one of them at 11 I'm going to be excited. If the dream happens and we can get one at 23 even better, but no way would I risk that. Whoever we get let's bring it on.

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VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:59 pm Judging from what I hear Quinyon Mitchell is my preferred CB with DeJean just slightly behind followed by Arnold

Mitchell has everything you want in a CB physically and played well in college. If his level of college competition were higher he'd be a top 10 lock. I wouldn't be upset if the Vikings get him.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:59 pm , but I want a DT more. Newton or Murphy II would be great. It's obvious to me that a great defensive prospect will be available at 23, but it could very easily end up with no good QB prospects available at 23.

Agree with you on this one. Newton would give them a bit more dynamism in the pass rush, while Murphy is just a solid interior player who is going to anchor the middle on every down if that's what they need him to do. I like Newton a little more because he reminds me of John Randle, but like you I'd be happy with either, especially at 23.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:59 pm You know I'm one of the biggest Nix fans around and I think so many people dismiss him irrationally due to his low ADOT. His ADOT was low because the game plan called for it to be low. I think McCarthy gets dismissed unfairly a lot as well. Michigan had a great running game and simply didn't need to pass much. That's not McCarthy's fault. When he did pass he was very successful. He's got a big arm and is very athletic and young with great potential to get better. Due to that I have McCarthy third just ahead of Nix, followed by Penix and Maye. If we draft any one of them at 11 I'm going to be excited. If the dream happens and we can get one at 23 even better, but no way would I risk that. Whoever we get let's bring it on.

Drafting a QB is just very difficult. Even the guys who seem close to sure things can bust, while other guys who come out with question marks can evolve into really good pros.

I suspect if the Vikings draft a QB in the first they will do it at 11 or I could possibly see KAM trade back into the 15-20 range if he gets a good enough offer, because if one or more of the QBs you list is still there at 11 I think its likely he'll still be there between 15-20. I could see that happen if there is a run on QBs in the top 10. I would not be as optimistic that a sliding QB or QBs would be there at 23, although I suppose the odds of that would still be pretty high for any QB that falls out of the top 10.

One other player I hope is on their radar is the interior OL player Powers-Johnson. Technically a center, he could easily play either guard spot as well and I think he's a 10 year impact starter out of the gate. Investing in the interior OL at the same time they invest in a rookie QB makes sense to me. I think Powers-Johnson is one of the safest picks in this year's draft in terms of his potential to get into the lineup quickly and make an impact. He'd be a great pick that would provide positional flexibility as well.

Tommy TarkenKapp wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 5:37 pm God damnit!! I really like Bo Nix.

https://sports.yahoo.com/bo-nix-college ... 24243.html

What's not to like? Nothing.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:58 pm

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:41 pm I typically don't criticize posts (or try not to), and I wasn't criticizing yours. We all have opinions and I'm fine with that.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying that.

psjordan wrote: ↑Thu Apr 18, 2024 12:41 pm I just don't see what KAM could have done in the last two years to realistically address the situation. Kirk was firm on two more guaranteed years. KAM did not think that was good for the franchise. I'm OK with that assessment.

The way I understand it, the last extension Cousins signed was the 2 year deal and both the Vikings and Cousins wanted that deal over that term. If I have a criticism of that deal, it is that KAM had an opportunity to cut bait at that time and go in a different direction at QB either in the draft or free agency or maybe a combination of both. Maybe the Wilfs liked Cousins and forced his hand? I don't know, but there was an opportunity at that time to shift gears and KAM declined for whatever reason.

But, that also set the doomsday clock ahead by 2 full seasons before the next decision would have to be made, and while there are rumors that the Vikings attempted to make some moves at QB during that time, the fact remains they did nothing other than to spend a 5th rounder(?) on Jaren Hall. There were also rumors that Cousins was willing to extend again over a longer term and the Vikings declined. This was before Cousins was injured, too, so if accurate that seems like an intentional decision with well-understood consequences.

And then we arrived at doomsday and there were a lot of reports that the Vikings wanted Cousins back for another 2 years while the Falcons were willing to offer him 4. And this against the backdrop of last season where, once Cousins went out, the Vikings experienced a literal horror show at QB.

So what could KAM have done differently? If you're suggesting nothing realistic could have been done to alter their fortunes, I don't think I can agree with that. If you're suggesting that there was no alternative that would have obviously changed things for the better, I would be more inclined to agree with that. Fundamentally, I don't think KAM gets off the hook just because there wasn't a better obvious alternative, though. From where I sit, KAM went down a path with an obvious end and allowed himself to reach that end without any viable alternative. And thus here we are where his hand is going to be forced now. Lucky for all of us, this is a supposedly "deep" QB draft class.

I do commend KAM for picking up Sam Darnold. While I don't think he would have done that under other circumstances, Darnold is a solid choice to bridge the gap no matter what else is done this year at the QB position. I think Darnold will do well with KOC as his coach and I think the Vikings provide enough offensive weapons to make his job easier.

That is how KAM got himself into the doomsday situation he is in. Now and you said it many times a desperate situation will increase the odds of a bad decision. KOC says his passing game thrives on accuracy, timing and rhythm. That provides nothing and the same BS has been thrown around forever. Every passing game needs that. There's never been an inaccurate QB that has made a passing game work. That's a must have not a nice to have. We'll see in a few years how deep this class really is. Since it's deep there might be 2 avg to above avg QBs in it. The rest will flop around until nobody wants them. It's the same act but a different day. We need the next Marino an instant star who could throw any pass in the book and had a lighting quick release. Does that exists within this group of 6? I have no idea but it's highly unlikely.