Vikings Message Board.Com

chicagopurple wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:21 pm what separates the Eagles and Cowboys from us is their OL/DL.....They are bigger and far more aggressive.
Our skill players match up pretty well against anyone. Cousins has finally shown that he will show up in big games.
The lines are the foundation for everything though and we just arent on par. If management can keep our current skill players and FINALLY build a good OL/DL then we will be a bonafide smart bet in the post season. Perhaps a little upgrade in the secondary too....

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:46 pm

chicagopurple wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 12:21 pm what separates the Eagles and Cowboys from us is their OL/DL.....They are bigger and far more aggressive.
Our skill players match up pretty well against anyone. Cousins has finally shown that he will show up in big games.
The lines are the foundation for everything though and we just arent on par. If management can keep our current skill players and FINALLY build a good OL/DL then we will be a bonafide smart bet in the post season. Perhaps a little upgrade in the secondary too....

OL/DL play is key to deep playoff runs. I feel like both lines stood up pretty well against some really good teams these last few weeks. Not flashy performances, but overall respectable.

Dallas was the only DL that really took it to the Vikings OL consistently, but Darrisaw went out that game and I think Cleveland also went out. Parsons took full advantage of that. The following week Brandel was fully prepared and Cleveland was back in, and it made a difference.

The Vikings DL has been steady getting pressure. They made White uncomfortable a lot yesterday, batted down some passes, and made some nice stops. Tomlinson looked good in his return. Donatell continues to rush 4 consistently and rotate guys out to keep fresh legs. It's a solid unit and they're playing pretty disciplined.

I don't think the Vikings concede all that much, if anything, to their potential playoff opponents. They just ran through the AFC East, which might be the strongest overall division in football. Both lines held their own in those games, and both lines weren't even at full strength (Tomlinson out on defense, Darrisaw out on offense). I'm not too worried about either unit in the playoffs, but will be watching closely to see how both perform as the season reaches the stretch run.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:06 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 1:46 pm

OL/DL play is key to deep playoff runs. I feel like both lines stood up pretty well against some really good teams these last few weeks. Not flashy performances, but overall respectable.

Dallas was the only DL that really took it to the Vikings OL consistently, but Darrisaw went out that game and I think Cleveland also went out. Parsons took full advantage of that. The following week Brandel was fully prepared and Cleveland was back in, and it made a difference.

The Vikings DL has been steady getting pressure. They made White uncomfortable a lot yesterday, batted down some passes, and made some nice stops. Tomlinson looked good in his return. Donatell continues to rush 4 consistently and rotate guys out to keep fresh legs. It's a solid unit and they're playing pretty disciplined.

I don't think the Vikings concede all that much, if anything, to their potential playoff opponents. They just ran through the AFC East, which might be the strongest overall division in football. Both lines held their own in those games, and both lines weren't even at full strength (Tomlinson out on defense, Darrisaw out on offense). I'm not too worried about either unit in the playoffs, but will be watching closely to see how both perform as the season reaches the stretch run.

One thing that has hurt the Vikings DL is that ZaDarius Smith has been slowed by that ongoing knee issue. He just doesn't look the same as he did during through the Buffalo game. Hunter is playing well, but it's not showing up in sacks (although 7 sacks is nothing to sneeze at). I do like how Donatell is mixing and matching personnel. We saw just about everybody yesterday. I actually love Patrick Jones, as do many of us. Would like to see him get more snaps over Wonnum, who looked very average yesterday. Tomlinson was solid. Glad to have him back.

The issue with the defense, to me, starts with the linebackers. I'm just not convinced that EK and Hicks are fast enough to run sideline-to-sideline as ILBs in a 3-4 scheme. Honestly, if this team played a 4-3, Hicks and EK would probably be fine (assuming we had a decent third linebacker). But sometimes they just get beat to the edge. Lots of Vikings fans sound like a broken record here, but it sure would be good to see Brian Asamoah get some meaningful snaps.

On the back end, I'd love to see more of Josh Metellus. He started the Detroit game when Harry was down, and he played really well. He only got a couple of snaps yesterday, yet he made some plays on them. Also hoping Cam Dantzler can go this week because we need him. Evans already has been ruled out against Detroit with another concussion, and while Duke Shelley plays his butt off, he's only 5-8.

The defense looks really leaky. But the fact is they only gave up one touchdown and had tremendous success on third down, fourth down and especially in the red zone. The Vikings came into the game ranked 26th in red zone defense, so after holding the Jets to 1-of-6, they'll most certainly move up. Situational masters, as O'Connell preaches.

CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:30 am This is from 12/2.. Roughly 6 minutes into the presser, O’Connell discusses his linebackers. He offers his praise for Eric Kendricks and Jordan Hicks, a veteran pair who have “been really consistent.” “I’d like to continue to find ways,” O’Connell continues, “to get Brian Asamoah in there.” Shortly thereafter, O’Connell describes Asamoah as a “dominant” special teams player.
Some of the more notable parts of Asamoah’s game are his size and speed. At just 6’1″, 228, he’s quite small for an NFL linebacker. One of the ways he makes up for that lack of size is his speed (which has been evident on special teams). He ran a 4.56 forty. For context, Kendricks ran a 4.61 and Hicks ran a 4.68.
If you want to go with a small guy in the middle I guess. Better hope they don't run a center screen. In the end don't the OLBer in a 3-4 have any sideline coverage responsibilities?

CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:30 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 6:06 pm
One thing that has hurt the Vikings DL is that ZaDarius Smith has been slowed by that ongoing knee issue. He just doesn't look the same as he did during through the Buffalo game. Hunter is playing well, but it's not showing up in sacks (although 7 sacks is nothing to sneeze at). I do like how Donatell is mixing and matching personnel. We saw just about everybody yesterday. I actually love Patrick Jones, as do many of us. Would like to see him get more snaps over Wonnum, who looked very average yesterday. Tomlinson was solid. Glad to have him back.

The issue with the defense, to me, starts with the linebackers. I'm just not convinced that EK and Hicks are fast enough to run sideline-to-sideline as ILBs in a 3-4 scheme. Honestly, if this team played a 4-3, Hicks and EK would probably be fine (assuming we had a decent third linebacker). But sometimes they just get beat to the edge. Lots of Vikings fans sound like a broken record here, but it sure would be good to see Brian Asamoah get some meaningful snaps.

On the back end, I'd love to see more of Josh Metellus. He started the Detroit game when Harry was down, and he played really well. He only got a couple of snaps yesterday, yet he made some plays on them. Also hoping Cam Dantzler can go this week because we need him. Evans already has been ruled out against Detroit with another concussion, and while Duke Shelley plays his butt off, he's only 5-8.

The defense looks really leaky. But the fact is they only gave up one touchdown and had tremendous success on third down, fourth down and especially in the red zone. The Vikings came into the game ranked 26th in red zone defense, so after holding the Jets to 1-of-6, they'll most certainly move up. Situational masters, as O'Connell preaches.

This is from 12/2.. Roughly 6 minutes into the presser, O’Connell discusses his linebackers. He offers his praise for Eric Kendricks and Jordan Hicks, a veteran pair who have “been really consistent.” “I’d like to continue to find ways,” O’Connell continues, “to get Brian Asamoah in there.” Shortly thereafter, O’Connell describes Asamoah as a “dominant” special teams player.
Some of the more notable parts of Asamoah’s game are his size and speed. At just 6’1″, 228, he’s quite small for an NFL linebacker. One of the ways he makes up for that lack of size is his speed (which has been evident on special teams). He ran a 4.56 forty. For context, Kendricks ran a 4.61 and Hicks ran a 4.68.
If you want to go with a small guy in the middle I guess. Better hope they don't run a center screen. In the end don't the OLBer in a 3-4 have any sideline coverage responsibilities?

IIsweet wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:10 am If it ain't broke, don't fix it !!! 10-2.
I think that they honestly just trust the veterans right now, and yes they are giving up huge chunks etc. but we are still 10-2.
The veteran savvy has been on display all season in crucial moments. Unsure if Asamoah makes us better right now. I am pretty sure that Hicks and EK have a great deal of communication going on.
Honestly, just a tough spot to infuse the youth. What if he messes up the timing on 1 play which changes a coverage or worse a game? Then everyone says, why did he do that? He is not ready. What happened to bend but don't break?
It will happen eventually, but hopefully with good health and good fortune, he is not a starter until 2023 !

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 am

IIsweet wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:10 am If it ain't broke, don't fix it !!! 10-2.
I think that they honestly just trust the veterans right now, and yes they are giving up huge chunks etc. but we are still 10-2.
The veteran savvy has been on display all season in crucial moments. Unsure if Asamoah makes us better right now. I am pretty sure that Hicks and EK have a great deal of communication going on.
Honestly, just a tough spot to infuse the youth. What if he messes up the timing on 1 play which changes a coverage or worse a game? Then everyone says, why did he do that? He is not ready. What happened to bend but don't break?
It will happen eventually, but hopefully with good health and good fortune, he is not a starter until 2023 !

Honestly, I think you’re right. I’m probably guilty of a bit of recency bias here. The defense scared the crap out of me in the second half of the Jets game. Of course, if the offense had one more drive in them, it all would’ve been moot.

I will say that I’m beginning to see signs of a really well-conditioned team breaking down a bit physically, and it worries me. It’s not so much guys like Darrisaw, Dantzler and Evans being out. It’s ZaDarius Smith obviously being hobbled. It’s linebackers and safeties and corners being gassed in the second halves of games because the back 7 plays every snap. It’s a long season, and it takes a toll.

I guess I just question the wisdom of playing two linebackers in their 8th season every snap. They rotate D-linemen. Why not linebackers? As you said, it’s too late to change now, but it might have made sense to get Asamoah some playing time all along the way so that he could step in if one of the others were to get hurt.

We’re 10-2. Unlike many, I think it’s a completely legit 10-2. I believe 100% that the Vikings can beat the best. I’d just hate to see it all come crashing down in the playoffs because a rookie makes the mistakes you so correctly describe after being forced into action following an injury.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:55 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:30 am
This is from 12/2.. Roughly 6 minutes into the presser, O’Connell discusses his linebackers. He offers his praise for Eric Kendricks and Jordan Hicks, a veteran pair who have “been really consistent.” “I’d like to continue to find ways,” O’Connell continues, “to get Brian Asamoah in there.” Shortly thereafter, O’Connell describes Asamoah as a “dominant” special teams player.
Some of the more notable parts of Asamoah’s game are his size and speed. At just 6’1″, 228, he’s quite small for an NFL linebacker. One of the ways he makes up for that lack of size is his speed (which has been evident on special teams). He ran a 4.56 forty. For context, Kendricks ran a 4.61 and Hicks ran a 4.68.
If you want to go with a small guy in the middle I guess. Better hope they don't run a center screen. In the end don't the OLBer in a 3-4 have any sideline coverage responsibilities?

OK then, two questions.

1. Is impossible to imagine that Asamoah could shed a block?
2. Are Kendricks and Hicks somehow dominating against the run?

There have been two things evident in the games against Dallas and the Jets. The Vikings’ defense need an infusion of speed. Not bulk. Our guys are slow. Bulk only helps if they run right at you.

CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:08 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 9:55 am
OK then, two questions.

1. Is impossible to imagine that Asamoah could shed a block?
2. Are Kendricks and Hicks somehow dominating against the run?

There have been two things evident in the games against Dallas and the Jets. The Vikings’ defense need an infusion of speed. Not bulk. Our guys are slow. Bulk only helps if they run right at you.

The Dallas game they controlled the LOS. We lost that battle zero sacks and it's tough for any back end to hold up for an extended period regardless of speed. Everybody likes top end speed including me but there's only so much out there and it's not on our team. X Rhodes was never considered a top end speedster he was average for a CB but he played some good ball and that was helped by the pass rush. I'm a firm believer in size and that's the main concern with Asamoah playing inside. If he gets tangled up he won't make the sideline. I have no problem if he plays but there is a downside.

TheCoolerOne wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 am
Honestly, I think you’re right. I’m probably guilty of a bit of recency bias here. The defense scared the crap out of me in the second half of the Jets game. Of course, if the offense had one more drive in them, it all would’ve been moot.

I will say that I’m beginning to see signs of a really well-conditioned team breaking down a bit physically, and it worries me. It’s not so much guys like Darrisaw, Dantzler and Evans being out. It’s ZaDarius Smith obviously being hobbled. It’s linebackers and safeties and corners being gassed in the second halves of games because the back 7 plays every snap. It’s a long season, and it takes a toll.

I guess I just question the wisdom of playing two linebackers in their 8th season every snap. They rotate D-linemen. Why not linebackers? As you said, it’s too late to change now, but it might have made sense to get Asamoah some playing time all along the way so that he could step in if one of the others were to get hurt.

We’re 10-2. Unlike many, I think it’s a completely legit 10-2. I believe 100% that the Vikings can beat the best. I’d just hate to see it all come crashing down in the playoffs because a rookie makes the mistakes you so correctly describe after being forced into action following an injury.

Luke Braun of Locked On Vikings answered a question someone posed about Asamoah’s playing time, suggesting that right now Asamoah is in the “Fast and Wrong” phase of his development. That is, flying to where he thinks he’s supposed to be, but incorrectly choosing that spot—particularly in run fits.

So that could be a pretty big deal, especially late in the 4th, for example. Opposing team trying to ice the ball and we’re desperately trying to get it back, shooting the wrong gap could be the difference between Hicks stopping it for 3 yards and Asamoah letting it pop for 7 or 10.

We haven’t had many (read: any) opportunities to work the younger cats in because we’re always playing neck and neck. My guess is we saw Asamoah in the first half, especially the second quarter, because we had a freakish 17-point lead. As that eroded, so did the coaching staff’s confidence in letting Asamoah run around. Maybe that’s an indictment of them, but at least it’s seemingly justifiable

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:34 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:08 pm
The Dallas game they controlled the LOS. We lost that battle zero sacks and it's tough for any back end to hold up for an extended period regardless of speed. Everybody likes top end speed including me but there's only so much out there and it's not on our team. X Rhodes was never considered a top end speedster he was average for a CB but he played some good ball and that was helped by the pass rush. I'm a firm believer in size and that's the main concern with Asamoah playing inside. If he gets tangled up he won't make the sideline. I have no problem if he plays but there is a downside.

Gotta disagree on Rhodes.

I was at a game against the Cardinals a few years ago, when all these Vikings vets were young and fast. We were in our normal end zone seats, so the play happened right in front of us. The Cardinals were knocking on the door of the end zone, inside the 10 yard line. Rhodes jumped a route, made the pick, and took it 100 yards to the house. I later found out that Next Gen stats had him at more than 22 mph on that return. It ended up being the fastest top speed of any player in the NFL for the entire season. That’s Tyreek Hill type speed. The young Rhodes could run.

That was, 1 through 11, one of the fastest defenses I have ever seen. Amazing how great a defensive coach Mike Zimmer could be when he had horses like that.

I contend that defenses with speed are the best defenses, as long as they’re coached well. Right now in the NFC, the fastest defenses are found in San Francisco and Dallas. Not surprisingly, those two defenses rank near the top.

Asamoah is going to be a good player. It may simply be that he’s not ready. I just worry about our team speed. That’s all.

TheCoolerOne wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 12:38 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:51 am
Honestly, I think you’re right. I’m probably guilty of a bit of recency bias here. The defense scared the crap out of me in the second half of the Jets game. Of course, if the offense had one more drive in them, it all would’ve been moot.

I will say that I’m beginning to see signs of a really well-conditioned team breaking down a bit physically, and it worries me. It’s not so much guys like Darrisaw, Dantzler and Evans being out. It’s ZaDarius Smith obviously being hobbled. It’s linebackers and safeties and corners being gassed in the second halves of games because the back 7 plays every snap. It’s a long season, and it takes a toll.

I guess I just question the wisdom of playing two linebackers in their 8th season every snap. They rotate D-linemen. Why not linebackers? As you said, it’s too late to change now, but it might have made sense to get Asamoah some playing time all along the way so that he could step in if one of the others were to get hurt.

We’re 10-2. Unlike many, I think it’s a completely legit 10-2. I believe 100% that the Vikings can beat the best. I’d just hate to see it all come crashing down in the playoffs because a rookie makes the mistakes you so correctly describe after being forced into action following an injury.

Luke Braun of Locked On Vikings answered a question someone posed about Asamoah’s playing time, suggesting that right now Asamoah is in the “Fast and Wrong” phase of his development. That is, flying to where he thinks he’s supposed to be, but incorrectly choosing that spot—particularly in run fits.

So that could be a pretty big deal, especially late in the 4th, for example. Opposing team trying to ice the ball and we’re desperately trying to get it back, shooting the wrong gap could be the difference between Hicks stopping it for 3 yards and Asamoah letting it pop for 7 or 10.

We haven’t had many (read: any) opportunities to work the younger cats in because we’re always playing neck and neck. My guess is we saw Asamoah in the first half, especially the second quarter, because we had a freakish 17-point lead. As that eroded, so did the coaching staff’s confidence in letting Asamoah run around. Maybe that’s an indictment of them, but at least it’s seemingly justifiable