Vikings Message Board.Com

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:38 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:35 am
You have much more knowledge than me about the guy. I just go by what I read and stats. Most of what I read is that he's a great run stuffer. I never saw anything good about his pass rush ability. And maybe that's not what the signing was for. 31 is old to be a football player. Can some guys play longer sure. Most don't make it that far. Position matters also. I'm not disagreeing with signing the guys because that's there decision. I was hoping for something different that's all.

Let me offer some perspective.

First of all, Tomlinson is not just a nose tackle. He played 3-tech in his rookie year in 2017, and he played it last year for the Giants after they acquired Dexter Lawrence. Tomlinson ranked in the 82nd percentile against the run in 2020. He also knows how to finish plays, with one of the best run-stop percentages in the NFL. In other words, if he gets his hands on you, he gets you down.

As a pass rusher, Tomlinson ranked 35th among interior defenders. That's middle-of-the-pack-ish. But even at that, his PFF pass-rush grade last year was 74.7, which blows away anything the Vikings put on the field at DT.

PFF has indicated that his $11 million per year contract is right in line with his capabilities as a 3-tech. As a nose tackle, he might have commanded even more money.

The signing is important for Minnesota in this. A lot of people believe "oh, you gotta stop the pass in the modern NFL." And that's true to an extent. But if you can stop the run with your defensive line and linebackers, you don't have to load up the box on early downs. That allows you to defend the pass better. For obvious passing downs, you can always rotate in a better pass rusher. Nothing wrong with that.

As for Patrick Peterson, this move surprises me, and it excites me. We're talking about a Hall-of-Famer here. I don't care if he's not the shutdown corner he used to be. The man knows how to play.

Here's the thing. Patrick Peterson was one of the most freakishly gifted athletes ever to go through the combine, and the trail technique he employed in his early years took advantage of that athleticism and ability to close ground. The Cardinals continued to ask him to do those things, even though he wasn't really able, so his decline looked worse than it was. Even last year, they had him shadow the other team's best receiver. We're talking guys like Terry McLaurin, D.K. Metcalf and Stefon Diggs. They expected him to be the 2012 version of Peterson, and he couldn't do it.

Even with that, his overall rank is deceptive. The Cardinals had him play a lot of slot, where his decline would be exposed even more. When he played outside, he ranked 29th out of 84 qualified corners in yards per cover snaps, probably the most important stat for a corner. Still not top-3 like he used to be, but not horrible. Especially given that they asked him to play a lot of man. Peterson's biggest problem last year was penalties. He had the most in the NFL at his position, which was a huge contributor to his low PFF score. Not surprising, given how he was being asked to do things his body simply wouldn't let him do.

If Mike Zimmer uses him correctly, he has every chance of having a Xavier Rhodes-like renaissance with the Vikings. And I think the chances of that are very good. Zimmer is really good at coaching techniques into corners that are designed specifically to overcome physical limitations. As good as Rhodes was, and as fast as Waynes was, neither was particularly flexible. Zimmer still coached them to be very good corners. Along with that, Peterson is an incredibly smart player who is really good at reading offenses and route combos. He also has good instincts defending in the run game.

Plus, it's a one-year deal. I don't see Peterson being horrible, but if he is, then he's out of the Vikings' lives in 2022.

I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised at what the Vikings have been able to do with their cap to become players in the free-agent market. They're still $6 million under the cap, but that's about what it'll take to sign the rookie class. So unless someone else restructures, they're probably done in free agency.

S197 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:48 pm

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 7:03 pm I wonder how many corners they will keep next year....6?

If 6 then it will be interesting .... dantzler , Peterson , Gladney are all locks. I would think Hughes and Hand are near locks as well, so that is 5 already

What about Boyd? He seems like a decent #6 but would probably get bounced if they want to upgrade . The PS rules were pretty liberal with COVID last year but Not sure on the PS rules for 2021.

But with Peterson and Hughes (assuming he makes final 53) there will be 2 holes to fill in 2022 so it would be nice to keep a guy like Boyd around for another year of development

They usually keep 6 and Boyd is decent on special teams so I can see him making it absent someone getting drafted.

I wouldn't be surprised if they cut Hughes as well. I don't see a point in keeping him around another year, he's basically shown he's a bust.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:12 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:01 pm

Do Vikings really need another cornerback? Vikings drafted 3 cornerbacks last year

It's not a matter of "need" per se, but who is BPA at the pick. If that's clearly a CB who should have gone earlier, then as much as it might not make sense in terms of "need", Spielman should either take the CB or trade back because some other team will know that CB shouldn't still be there at #14 and will be willing to trade up to get that value out of the pick.

With that said, I think that situation is highly unlikely as I don't see a CB worth #14 still being on the board.

I think the most likely positions where obvious value will be there at #14 are DE, LB, WR, and OL. I say "OL" instead of a particular position because the better OL players in this draft have demonstrated multi-position abilities in college and could likely slot in at either tackle or guard or even center as pros.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:03 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:12 pm

It's not a matter of "need" per se, but who is BPA at the pick. If that's clearly a CB who should have gone earlier, then as much as it might not make sense in terms of "need", Spielman should either take the CB or trade back because some other team will know that CB shouldn't still be there at #14 and will be willing to trade up to get that value out of the pick.

With that said, I think that situation is highly unlikely as I don't see a CB worth #14 still being on the board.

I think the most likely positions where obvious value will be there at #14 are DE, LB, WR, and OL. I say "OL" instead of a particular position because the better OL players in this draft have demonstrated multi-position abilities in college and could likely slot in at either tackle or guard or even center as pros.

If they take a LBer I might break something. I'd rather see a PK or P at 14 than that. At least I would get a laugh and see the board blow up. I see the need as follows. OL/DE/WR. The best from that group would work for me.

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:03 pm
If they take a LBer I might break something. I'd rather see a PK or P at 14 than that. At least I would get a laugh and see the board blow up. I see the need as follows. OL/DE/WR. The best from that group would work for me.

Vikings do need a linebacker though, Barr is not great and Wilson is a free agent so I would not mind if Vikings draft a linebacker in the first round

Rhodes Closed wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:04 am

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:12 pm

Vikings do need a linebacker though, Barr is not great and Wilson is a free agent so I would not mind if Vikings draft a linebacker in the first round

Strongly disagree on most of that.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:33 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:38 pm
Let me offer some perspective.

First of all, Tomlinson is not just a nose tackle. He played 3-tech in his rookie year in 2017, and he played it last year for the Giants after they acquired Dexter Lawrence. Tomlinson ranked in the 82nd percentile against the run in 2020. He also knows how to finish plays, with one of the best run-stop percentages in the NFL. In other words, if he gets his hands on you, he gets you down.

As a pass rusher, Tomlinson ranked 35th among interior defenders. That's middle-of-the-pack-ish. But even at that, his PFF pass-rush grade last year was 74.7, which blows away anything the Vikings put on the field at DT.

PFF has indicated that his $11 million per year contract is right in line with his capabilities as a 3-tech. As a nose tackle, he might have commanded even more money.

The signing is important for Minnesota in this. A lot of people believe "oh, you gotta stop the pass in the modern NFL." And that's true to an extent. But if you can stop the run with your defensive line and linebackers, you don't have to load up the box on early downs. That allows you to defend the pass better. For obvious passing downs, you can always rotate in a better pass rusher. Nothing wrong with that.

As for Patrick Peterson, this move surprises me, and it excites me. We're talking about a Hall-of-Famer here. I don't care if he's not the shutdown corner he used to be. The man knows how to play.

Here's the thing. Patrick Peterson was one of the most freakishly gifted athletes ever to go through the combine, and the trail technique he employed in his early years took advantage of that athleticism and ability to close ground. The Cardinals continued to ask him to do those things, even though he wasn't really able, so his decline looked worse than it was. Even last year, they had him shadow the other team's best receiver. We're talking guys like Terry McLaurin, D.K. Metcalf and Stefon Diggs. They expected him to be the 2012 version of Peterson, and he couldn't do it.

Even with that, his overall rank is deceptive. The Cardinals had him play a lot of slot, where his decline would be exposed even more. When he played outside, he ranked 29th out of 84 qualified corners in yards per cover snaps, probably the most important stat for a corner. Still not top-3 like he used to be, but not horrible. Especially given that they asked him to play a lot of man. Peterson's biggest problem last year was penalties. He had the most in the NFL at his position, which was a huge contributor to his low PFF score. Not surprising, given how he was being asked to do things his body simply wouldn't let him do.

If Mike Zimmer uses him correctly, he has every chance of having a Xavier Rhodes-like renaissance with the Vikings. And I think the chances of that are very good. Zimmer is really good at coaching techniques into corners that are designed specifically to overcome physical limitations. As good as Rhodes was, and as fast as Waynes was, neither was particularly flexible. Zimmer still coached them to be very good corners. Along with that, Peterson is an incredibly smart player who is really good at reading offenses and route combos. He also has good instincts defending in the run game.

Plus, it's a one-year deal. I don't see Peterson being horrible, but if he is, then he's out of the Vikings' lives in 2022.

I have to say, I'm pleasantly surprised at what the Vikings have been able to do with their cap to become players in the free-agent market. They're still $6 million under the cap, but that's about what it'll take to sign the rookie class. So unless someone else restructures, they're probably done in free agency.

Thanks for the response on Tomlison. You pointed out some good stuff. I get on one track of just get pressure. Well if you can't stop the run you don't have much of a chance. I've seen that act. This guy can do both. I give credit to Speilman he's trying to get the D improved quickly. He's hit the spots that needed help. Zim might get Peterson playing good again. I'm sure he has a role for him. As you point out it's a one year deal. The guy brings some skill I won't question that. None of us can expect the 25 year old version of him. This is a new stage in his career. But it's good to see people getting excited for a change. We have some nice pieces in place on both sides of the ball. The team has always played hard for Zim to. I also like that we have some offensive coaching consistency. Kubiak's dad is a phone call away also. It will be like every season and there will be high and low points. #### and cheering sometimes at the same moment. The key is getting hot at the end. Then anything can happen in today's NFL.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:03 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 5:12 pm

It's not a matter of "need" per se, but who is BPA at the pick. If that's clearly a CB who should have gone earlier, then as much as it might not make sense in terms of "need", Spielman should either take the CB or trade back because some other team will know that CB shouldn't still be there at #14 and will be willing to trade up to get that value out of the pick.

With that said, I think that situation is highly unlikely as I don't see a CB worth #14 still being on the board.

I think the most likely positions where obvious value will be there at #14 are DE, LB, WR, and OL. I say "OL" instead of a particular position because the better OL players in this draft have demonstrated multi-position abilities in college and could likely slot in at either tackle or guard or even center as pros.

If they take a LBer I might break something. I'd rather see a PK or P at 14 than that. At least I would get a laugh and see the board blow up. I see the need as follows. OL/DE/WR. The best from that group would work for me.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 10:35 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:40 am

You’re best bet is to actually research dalvin Tomlinson. He has played all over the interior. Everyone is pegging him as a NT because that was his listed position.

And as for Peterson, since Arizona got their new coach, they’ve been playing a ton of cover 1. Zim plays primarily cover 2 which could be exactly what Peterson needs at this age. Just because he’s 31 does not mean the “gig is up”. Not sure where you’re even getting that from. Guys like Richard Sherman, Jonathan Joseph, Terrance Newman, and plenty more have still played very solid football. They aren’t a 25 year old shut down corner but they are still very good.

You have much more knowledge than me about the guy. I just go by what I read and stats. Most of what I read is that he's a great run stuffer. I never saw anything good about his pass rush ability. And maybe that's not what the signing was for. 31 is old to be a football player. Can some guys play longer sure. Most don't make it that far. Position matters also. I'm not disagreeing with signing the guys because that's there decision. I was hoping for something different that's all.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:54 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:03 pm
If they take a LBer I might break something. I'd rather see a PK or P at 14 than that. At least I would get a laugh and see the board blow up. I see the need as follows. OL/DE/WR. The best from that group would work for me.

Micah Parsons is the LB I'm thinking might still be on the board at #14.

If so, I could see Spielman entertaining trade offers more than taking him there.

Although Parsons would be good value at that pick. Watch his highlights and read up on his player evaluation (I like the WalterFootball player evals as they get updated throughout the college season and offseason before the draft, plus they maintain player evals from prior drafts so you can look back and see how accurate they were in their evaluations of players who have been in the league for a while. Generally, they've been pretty good at calling the ball on strengths and weaknesses).

The draft is really about improving the overall talent level of the team. While the Vikings might not "need" a LB, they always "need" better players at all positions to succeed as a team. So if a guy like Parsons is there, and he's an obvious improvement over what you have and the best value at the spot you're selecting, the wise GM takes him barring getting better value in trade.

Parsons would merit some solid trade back offers, though, and I think Spielman would likely accept one of them in that scenario.

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:32 am but I really think they should draft Paye at 14. Hopefully they can bring in some better candidates or draft somebody in the third round to play guard.

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:02 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 11:54 am

Micah Parsons is the LB I'm thinking might still be on the board at #14.

If so, I could see Spielman entertaining trade offers more than taking him there.

Although Parsons would be good value at that pick. Watch his highlights and read up on his player evaluation (I like the WalterFootball player evals as they get updated throughout the college season and offseason before the draft, plus they maintain player evals from prior drafts so you can look back and see how accurate they were in their evaluations of players who have been in the league for a while. Generally, they've been pretty good at calling the ball on strengths and weaknesses).

The draft is really about improving the overall talent level of the team. While the Vikings might not "need" a LB, they always "need" better players at all positions to succeed as a team. So if a guy like Parsons is there, and he's an obvious improvement over what you have and the best value at the spot you're selecting, the wise GM takes him barring getting better value in trade.

Parsons would merit some solid trade back offers, though, and I think Spielman would likely accept one of them in that scenario.

I would take him at 14 depending on who's on the board. They may not need a linebacker now but Kendricks is what 29 and I doubt Barr is on the team after this year. If you are going to need the position in the next 5 years you don't hesitate to take the best available guy in my opinion you don't draft for just need this year especially in the first round.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:18 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:32 am but I really think they should draft Paye at 14. Hopefully they can bring in some better candidates or draft somebody in the third round to play guard.

Dude YES! I've been watching more and more on Paye and one thing that is going to draw him right to Zim.... Michigan moved him inside A LOT. So he is versatile and given we have what we have at DT, I could see him going this route, especially for third down defense. I think I'm starting to like Paye more for that reason than I'm like Rousseau.

As for guard, I pray that Trey Smith is there in the 3rd. Dont rule out the Vikings trade down from 14 and gain a 2nd rounder.

But in terms of who I want at 14, I am all about either Paye or Vera-Tucker. I'm a big Barmore fan but after the Tomlinson signing I doubt we go that route.

But I'm really starting to like Vera Tucker. I think he is more of a true guard than he is tackle and he's an excellent pass blocker with a great anchor. That is 1000% what we need on our interior.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:22 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Fri Mar 19, 2021 12:02 pm

I would take him at 14 depending on who's on the board. They may not need a linebacker now but Kendricks is what 29 and I doubt Barr is on the team after this year. If you are going to need the position in the next 5 years you don't hesitate to take the best available guy in my opinion you don't draft for just need this year especially in the first round.

Or take Parsons and trade Barr for draft picks. We'd only incur about $2.75 million in dead cap against $9.4 million saved.

The question is what Barr is worth. He's a strong-side linebacker who doesn't rush the passer. And after his pectoral injury, some analysts have him only at a 4th-rounder. Of course, then Rick would have five 4th-rounders, putting him in prime position to trade back and dominate the 7th round like no other GM in history.