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But AP doesn't play defense or am I missing something? In fact, their rookie RB out-rushed AP this week. So while he makes any team in the NFL better, it doesn't make a team with an elite QB a shoe-in for every single SB going foward. Especially when they have huge defensive issues similar to what GB and Minnesota have.

PacificNorseWest wrote:But AP doesn't play defense or am I missing something? In fact, their rookie RB out-rushed AP this week. So while he makes any team in the NFL better, it doesn't make a team with an elite QB a shoe-in for every single SB going foward. Especially when they have huge defensive issues similar to what GB and Minnesota have.

True, but when you have the best RB in the game and the worst (or second worst) QB in the game, the imbalance tends to negatively impact every facet of the game. That's all I was saying.

TheFoxInDetox wrote:I think an argument could be made that QB play is the root cause of every problem this team is suffering from. I'm not saying I believe that, I'm saying that an argument could be made.

If you remove Ponder and insert, say, Rodgers...

The box is no longer stacked making life easier on the O-line
O-line in turn gives better protection allowing receivers to come open and allowing QB to go through progressions
With time for plays to unfold, the play calling looks much more competent
New QB makes quicker and better decisions, turns the ball over less
Holes open up allowing AD to run more freely in open space where he is less likely to turn the ball over
Trips to the red zone end in more TDs and less FGs/turnovers
Offense is now able to string together longer series which allows defense time to regroup
Drives that don't end in a score still put special teams in better field position
Ect
Ect
Ect

As I said, I don't believe it is all Ponders fault but excellent QB play could alleviate a lot of what ails us. Unfortunately the two guys sitting behind him on the bench are unlikely to be an upgrade

Packers 1-2.....had the ball with 3min to go ....fail. Rodgers threw 2 picks also. Credit the Bengals defense.

Niners 1-2..... less than 20pts in last 2 games combined.....their defense can't match up to what other teams D's are doing to their offense. Given up over 70 points in 2 games.

Steelers 0-3.....if only they had a competent QB

Giants 0-3.... lose 38-0 to Carolina, see Steelers comment above.

Redskins 0-3....their defense can't hang, if only they had a skilled QB.

Ravens 1-2.....funny how bad Flacco is when 3 out 4 of the best players on that defense leave town.

Dolphins, Chiefs, Seattle, Bears 3-0 Jets, Cowboys, Lions 2-1.... all of these teams field solid defenses regardless of the opponents they face.

IMO, if you can't defend with the game on the line it doesn't matter who the QB is.

I'm not saying you disagree or that Ponder shouldn't be expected to play much better....just that we have other issues that are just as, if not more, important. And we aren't he only team in that boat.
There's really not much they can do about Ponder until they draft another guy. Cassel would probaly get knocked unconscious behind this line.

It's really hard to yank the QB when he's led you to two consecutive 4th qtr leads deep into games.



It's ridiculous to me, to suggest that in order to win a game, it's a must to have at least a two score lead or possession of the ball on the final drive...especially at home.

The Breeze wrote: Ravens 1-2.....funny how bad Flacco is when 3 out 4 of the best players on that defense leave town.

2-1

Beating those deadly BROWNS and Texans.

And actually, their defense is doing well. They were only average last year. But, after that Denver game, they have played two full games without allowing a touchdown. And Flacco's numbers aren't great, partly because of losing people to injuries, but he hasn't thrown a pick in 2 games, either.

Flacco isn't bad. The team isn't bad. Denver just made them look that way. And as far as your point, the defense is holding up despite the offense's struggles--and their QB isn't bad because of the defense losing stars. Balancing each other out and picking up the slack when needed--that's what a complete team does. I'm jealous.

PacificNorseWest wrote:Yet the Packers are 1-2 because their defense has as many holes as the cheese they wear on their heads.

Again, having an elite quarterback isn't a cure-all if a team isn't around him for support.

You have a point three weeks into the season. I'm going to guess (I'd be willing to bet) that, after 16 games, a flawed team with Aaron Rodgers at QB will have a better record than a flawed team with Adrian Peterson at RB, due to the outsized value of QB's in the league now.

I would like (in a football sense) nothing more, nothing more!, than to be wrong with this bet. Well, except for the elusive Vikings superbowl victory.

Tied for first; pass defense and quarterback play.

Ponder isn't doing a whole lot to make his case ... His ball placement is just the worst and his timing is mostly off.. But he sure is throwing down field a lot more ... Isn't everyone thrilled about how that's going?

The pass defense can't seem to stop 3rd down unless it's 3rd and forever. I might be oversimplifying a bit but I really think Winfield was holding the secondary together. People are out of position constantly and you've got to wonder how many times Winfield was helping to keep the younger and more inexperienced guys in the right spot. I think we got a little preview of the pass defense without Winfield last year and it hasn't gotten better with the addition of a rookie.

Not only is the QB play horrible but the offensive philosophy in general in my opinion is one that requires better play out of the defense. I'm part of the club that thinks keeping Patterson on the bench so much is insanity. The guy has spark and he creates awesome mismatches.

Why does it feel like this team is playing with the urgency of a team that's only 0-3 in the preseason and it's no big deal. Or maybe that's just my frustration.

Cliff wrote:Why does it feel like this team is playing with the urgency of a team that's only 0-3 in the preseason and it's no big deal. Or maybe that's just my frustration.

I think it's your frustration. I've seen a great deal of passion and urgency from them. Ineffectiveness is never going to look like much so when they don't play well, it's easy for it to look like they aren't playing hard.

Cliff wrote:Why does it feel like this team is playing with the urgency of a team that's only 0-3 in the preseason and it's no big deal. Or maybe that's just my frustration.

I think we may see some changes whether it's the coaching staff's preference or not, especially in the secondary. With guys like Cook, Jefferson, and Sanford banged up, we might see more of Rhodes, Sherels and Sendejo. I'd actually like to see what Blanton has, he looks like a solid tackler on special teams and should have good chemistry with Smith but it doesn't look like he'll beat Sendejo out of the spot if Sanford and Mistral can't go. It will be interesting to see if Bishop gets worked in more this week as well, he seems to have a good nose for the ball.

The Breeze wrote:IMO, if you can't defend with the game on the line it doesn't matter who the QB is.

Here's where I believe coaching is letting the team down.

The Vikings had Hoyer on the ropes in the second half. They FINALLY started rushing with more than four (by the way, Jared Allen was invisible yesterday ... Joe Thomas owned him with no double teaming) and Hoyer was suddenly clueless. Incredible as it seems, Erin Henderson was dominating. And it stayed that way until the final drive ... when the Vikings played soft. Why? Why all of a sudden go back to the defense that made Brian Hoyer look like a HOFer?

The Breeze wrote:I'm not saying you disagree or that Ponder shouldn't be expected to play much better....just that we have other issues that are just as, if not more, important.

I don't know, man. Ponder doesn't bring a confident energy to the team. He doesn't give off the impression that he's going to be successful, and I think his teammates are sensing it. That's purely speculation, and I could certainly be wrong. But gosh, there was so much booing going on Sunday -- in the HOME OPENER. That CAN'T help Ponder's teammates. Unfortunately, it was mostly deserved booing, in my opinion.

The Breeze wrote:There's really not much they can do about Ponder until they draft another guy. Cassel would probaly get knocked unconscious behind this line.

Probably. But maybe (and this is a huge maybe) Cassel makes the reads better and gets rid of the ball quicker. Don't know. Not likely to make enough difference to matter.

The Breeze wrote:It's really hard to yank the QB when he's led you to two consecutive 4th qtr leads deep into games.

He had his moments Sunday. But he also was the beneficiary of two turnovers deep in Cleveland territory and came away with field goals.

The Breeze wrote:It's ridiculous to me, to suggest that in order to win a game, it's a must to have at least a two score lead or possession of the ball on the final drive...especially at home.

That IS sad, isn't it.

Unfortunately, none of the problems with this team look like they can be fixed easily by firing or hiring people after 3 games. Playing around with your assistant coaches three games into the season doesn't send a very assuring message to the rest of your organization. Firing your head coach and promoting one of the coordinators (who've been fairly terrible so far this year) is even less assuring.

None of them can be fixed by demoting a quarterback and promoting another one. There's no Brett Farve sitting around on the scout team here. We all watched the preseason and we know that. Those pick-6's that Ponder throws? Maybe if we ran a scheme where we weren't taking stupid risks, those wouldn't happen as often. If you know there's a guy to cover or at least get up and make a tackle if the ball goes to that side of the field and is picked off, then you don't have a pick-6. Good teams practice for that stuff because it happens. Maybe if we ran a scheme where Ponder could put that brain of his to use and check down if he feels like he's about to make a mistake, that stuff might not happen as much. Maybe we'd have more three and outs, but I'd take a three and out over a pick-6 any day of the week. Especially after they went and drafted a punter to cover for that.

None of the problems that can be fixed are easy fixes. They're problems inherent in the depth chart and personnel. Maybe moving guys around on defense could help. Maybe linebackers need to be demoted or shifted. Changes definitely need to be made along the defensive line. Demotions, promotions, and shifts. Two or three of the guys on the offensive line aren't cutting it...but this team is putting up enough points to win. That's not the critical problem right now. The problem is that big plays aren't being made on defense, so people are putting all their hopes on the offense and it's not scoring 40 points (and considering how the defense has played in the second half so far, they'd probably let the other team score 45). So they blame the offense.

I think losing Antoine Winfield was a bigger deal than we could have known. The only way to fix the real problems is to wait until 2014 and address them when they can be addressed.

The positions that this organization has given a middle finger to have been Quarterback and Linebacker. That's not a smart way to do things. You can run all the schemes that minimize the importance of those positions all you want, but there's a reason why teams that win are usually solid in those positions. If you play the game, it's impossible to ignore how important fundamentally those positions are.

As I sit here and watch the Broncos play the raiders I am certain it makes no difference rather or not how good the vikings are, because the Broncos are going to win the Super Bowl this year.

vikingsfansince07 wrote:As I sit here and watch the Broncos play the raiders I am certain it makes no difference rather or not how good the vikings are, because the Broncos are going to win the Super Bowl this year.

I think Denver just runs the ball to give Payton's arm a rest.

Seattle will destroy them if they even make it. Peyton's arm will wear out by the playoffs just like it did last year.

MelanieMFunk wrote: 2-1

Beating those deadly BROWNS and Texans.

And actually, their defense is doing well. They were only average last year. But, after that Denver game, they have played two full games without allowing a touchdown. And Flacco's numbers aren't great, partly because of losing people to injuries, but he hasn't thrown a pick in 2 games, either.

Flacco isn't bad. The team isn't bad. Denver just made them look that way. And as far as your point, the defense is holding up despite the offense's struggles--and their QB isn't bad because of the defense losing stars. Balancing each other out and picking up the slack when needed--that's what a complete team does. I'm jealous.

Actually this proves my point about defense being just as important than an elite QB.
Scratch the Ravens from my list and add the 1-2 Falcons....another team struggling to win in spite of havng an upper tier QB.


Imagine what an elite QB would do to this defense~

The Breeze wrote: Actually this proves my point about defense being just as important than an elite QB.

I suppose, but you had it all twisted.