Vikings @ Lions Game Day Discussion Thread -- Week 15

[DK Sweets]

So what do you expect when you draft someone with the 4th pick of the draft? I sure expect him to be in the top 15, especially after he made the Pro Bowl his first year.

I was expecting a top 5 LT.

[Purple Reign]

I understand that. I never said they weren't big mistakes. However it's not just this game. Even last game, as good as Teddy played there was still a lot of nitpicking. It's an every game occurrence. By no means am I saying the kid does nothing wrong but IMO, there seems to be more nitpicking win or lose rather than the positives. I mean after all, he is a rookie and is going to make his mistakes. Like I said, he's been the most promising young QB we've had in a long time but it still seems like there are some that aren't big fans which really baffles me

Not everyone is going to see things the same way you do, that's just the nature of a message board and you should get used to it because it's not going to change. I could say that you seem just the opposite in that you only only see the good things and tend to downplay/overlook the bad in Teddy's play. Everyone here is entitled to their opinions.

[Purple Reign]

Sorry, I misunderstood you to think that you weren't expecting him to be in the top 15.

[indianation65]

I hate losing, but in the end, anything that might hurts the packers, I'll take.

Addendum: Now I need the cowboys to continually screw up somehow...hate that team as well.

...wisdom

[Mothman]

Yes but I'm curious, you say there is "too much of Teddy's game" that you don't like. Interested to know what that is. For me there have been 1-2 things but nothing to the point where I am scratching my head wondering if he is the answer. Trust me, I don't want to be let down anymore either but I sure do know that I haven't been more pleased and excited for a vikings QB in quite some time. Every QB has their ups and downs, especially as a rookie, but I see a lot of promise with Teddy

I see promise too but I don't like his on and off struggles with inaccuracy, the INTs, the tendency he has shown at times to rely too heavily on the check down and the occasional tendency to hold onto the ball too long in the pocket. From what I've seen, he's been at his best when defenses allow him to make a lot of throws underneath coverage and give receivers a chance to run after the catch. When he doesn't have those opportunities, I find him far less impressive.

I'm not sure what to think of his leadership qualities at this point so I'm neutral on that.

For every negative, there's a positive: he has shown great accuracy at times, he's shown the ability to make the smart play and take care of the ball, he keeps his eyes downfield and often shows good pocket presence, he seems to have a good grasp of the offense, he's been able to rally the team late in some games, he's mobile and can make plays with his feet but thankfully, it's not his first instinct...

At this point, I see nothing definitive to suggest he is or isn't the answer. I think he's just a rookie showing some promise. He'll face another hurdle next year when teams have a year's worth of film on him, a better grasp of his shortcomings and apparent limitations. How he deals with that will tell us a lot.

As you said, every QB has his ups and downs so I'm not unforgiving of those downs. I know they're to be expected but I just haven't seen anything to convince me the Vikes have now secured their starter for the next 8-10 years.

[PurpleKoolaid]

Im starting to wonder if some of Teddy's accuracy problems, are just not being on the same page as his receivers. Bother Stafford and Rogers showed the same thing yesterday, with badly thrown balls. But There was miscommunication. Just like in the last minute of the game yesterday, that was just plain awful. I think Norv, Zimmer and Teddy were all off. And Asiata sliding like that? They gotta work on clock management.

[losperros]

I see promise too but I don't like his on and off struggles with inaccuracy, the INTs, the tendency he has shown at times to rely too heavily on the check down and the occasional tendency to hold onto the ball too long in the pocket. From what I've seen, he's been at his best when defenses allow him to make a lot of throws underneath coverage and give receivers a chance to run after the catch. When he doesn't have those opportunities, I find him far less impressive.

You mean the rookie stuff. Yeah, it's all been there. I think he might grow out of most of it. That's the clincher for me. Does the progress continue or plateau?

But I do see the progress. That's why I can't dump on the kid. He's inexperienced and trying to be a NFL QB. That's got to be difficult.

I'm not sure what to think of his leadership qualities at this point so I'm neutral on that.

This must be a really subjective issue, because I think it's one of his more impressive qualities. Seems to me that Bridgewater is gradually growing into his role as the QB and leader of the offense.

For every negative, there's a positive: he has shown great accuracy at times, he's shown the ability to make the smart play and take care of the ball, he keeps his eyes downfield and often shows good pocket presence, he seems to have a good grasp of the offense, he's been able to rally the team late in some games, he's mobile and can make plays with his feet but thankfully, it's not his first instinct...

I agree.

I'm not psychic so I don't know what will happen with Bridgewater. While I agree with most everything you said, Jim, I don't have as many red flags about him as you do. Not yet, anyway.

Oops! Quick edit here. I wanted to add that I agree about Teddy throwing his passes high. Not just against Detroit, but there are cases of it in every game. The ball seems to sail on him at times. What the heck causes that? Do anyone know? I assume it's still in the throwing motion, which I think the coaches have been cleaning up. If he can stop the passes from sailing, he'll have more completions, including more big play ones.

[losperros]

Since this thread is about the game and I just saw it on NFL Rewind, there are some other things I want to add:

-- Sherels is a darn good punt returner. He's shifty and quick. Sherels and Patterson usually give the Vikings good field position on their returns.

-- Norv seems to like WR screens a lot. Someone said he doesn't use them. Oh yes he does. And it's ridiculous that we don't see Patterson catching some of them.

-- In fact, the situation with Patterson is ludicrous. I loved his big return near the end of the game. Looked damn quick to me. Turner really can't think of ways to use this guy more often on offense? And please, no nonsense about Patterson having "issues." The entire coaching staff says he doesn't. The only real issue is that he doesn't get enough touches.

-- I'm a subjective fan like all of you. I thought Walsh's two FG misses hurt the Vikings even more than Teddy's INTs. Just my two cents.

-- Asiata isn't who I want as a featured back, but the guy is a bull near the goal line. I'm glad the Vikings have him.

[Mothman]

You mean the rookie stuff. Yeah, it's all been there. I think he might grow out of most of it. That's the clincher for me. Does the progress continue or plateau?

Exactly, Craig. It's the rookie stuff and you asked the pertinent question: does the progress continue or plateau? he seems to me like the kind of player who will grow out of it but how long progress continues and where it eventually plateaus will determine just how much of an answer teddy proves to be for the Vikings.

But I do see the progress. That's why I can't dump on the kid. He's inexperienced and trying to be a NFL QB. That's got to be difficult.

It's clearly not easy and the fact that he's done as well he has, at such a young age, is pretty encouraging.

This must be a really subjective issue, because I think it's one of his more impressive qualities. Seems to me that Bridgewater is gradually growing into his role as the QB and leader of the offense.

I think it's is a very subjective issue.

I'm not psychic so I don't know what will happen with Bridgewater. While I agree with most everything you said, Jim, I don't have as many red flags about him as you do. Not yet, anyway.

I'll confess that my opinion of him may be skewed a little by my one experience seeing him perform in person. I wasn't impressed at all by the way he played here in Chicago. Honestly, it was pretty brutal to watch. He's played much better than that lately so I'm hoping the "light" has come on for him since then.

Oops! Quick edit here. I wanted to add that I agree about Teddy throwing his passes high. Not just against Detroit, but there are cases of it in every game. The ball seems to sail on him at times. What the heck causes that? Do anyone know? I assume it's still in the throwing motion, which I think the coaches have been cleaning up. If he can stop the passes from sailing, he'll have more completions, including more big play ones.

Agreed. I'm guessing it's a mechanical issue but perhaps he just gets too amped up at times. Didn't he say that was a problem for him in the first half against Green Bay?

[Mothman]

Since this thread is about the game and I just saw it on NFL Rewind, there are some other things I want to add:

-- Sherels is a darn good punt returner. He's shifty and quick. Sherels and Patterson usually give the Vikings good field position on their returns.

-- Norv seems to like WR screens a lot. Someone said he doesn't use them. Oh yes he does. And it's ridiculous that we don't see Patterson catching some of them.

-- In fact, the situation with Patterson is ludicrous. I loved his big return near the end of the game. Looked damn quick to me. Turner really can't think of ways to use this guy more often on offense? And please, no nonsense about Patterson having "issues." The entire coaching staff says he doesn't. The only real issue is that he doesn't get enough touches.

At this point, he seems to be in Norv's doghouse. I have no idea why but it's pretty frustrating.

-- Asiata isn't who I want as a featured back, but the guy is a bull near the goal line. I'm glad the Vikings have him

.

Not just near the goal line. He picked up a few first downs yesterday with pure physical play and willpower. Rhett Ellison did the same thing to keep a drive alive! The Vikings really delivered a high effort performance in that game. It's a shame they didn't win it.

[J. Kapp 11]

Oops! Quick edit here. I wanted to add that I agree about Teddy throwing his passes high. Not just against Detroit, but there are cases of it in every game. The ball seems to sail on him at times. What the heck causes that? Do anyone know? I assume it's still in the throwing motion, which I think the coaches have been cleaning up. If he can stop the passes from sailing, he'll have more completions, including more big play ones.

Love talking about this stuff.

Before I say anything, understand, I'm not a football coach. But I've coached baseball players for decades, and I have a good idea of what goes into sound throwing mechanics. Throwing a football requires almost the same motion and release as throwing a slider in baseball. In fact, we teach pitchers to throw sliders by having them pretend to throw footballs, essentially asking them to throw a "spiral" with a baseball. You quickly find out that it takes just the right arm angle to make the ball spin properly. Get the arm too high, and the ball backspins like a fastball. Too low, and the ball sails high in the zone and gets blasted.

Same with football. When the ball sails, it's almost always because the arm angle drops too low. When that happens, the ball has nowhere to go but up. It turns from a throw to almost a sidearm type sling.

Watch Peyton Manning. He's the total opposite, almost straight over the top ... some say too much. You don't see the ball sail on Manning, although you DO see the ball flutter a lot because it's hard to throw a tight spiral from a really high arm angle. Conversely, watch Jay Cutler. He has a great natural 3/4 motion, but he also gets lazy with his mechanics and drops his arm angle, causing him to sail throws. For a guy in his 9th year in the league, it's kind of inexcusable. Brady and Rodgers have great arm angles -- not low, but not violently over the top. You see a nice easy 3/4 angle almost every single throw. Stafford also has a great motion.

The other thing about arm slot is that it's almost always tied to footwork. Get your feet in the correct position, pointing at the target, good balance, and the arm goes to a good slot. Use poor footwork, and the arm angle will get sloppy. Again, see Jay Cutler. When he throws picks, it's almost always with terrible footwork and sailed throws.

I've seen arm slot issues with Teddy from the beginning, especially when he's under duress. That being said, I've seen a ton of improvement in Teddy's mechanics over the past four weeks. It's obvious the coaches are working with him. Earlier in the season, he was throwing a lot from a low arm slot, even when he was comfortable in the pocket. More and more, he's setting his feet, getting on top of the ball and driving it. His long TD to Johnson against the Jets was a great example, just a beautiful throw, and we saw good mechanics early in yesterday's game. The problem with Teddy is when protection breaks down and he can't get his feet set, he lets the arm drop. If he can clean things up to where his mechanics stay sound when he's under duress, he'll take the next step.

[losperros]

I've seen arm slot issues with Teddy from the beginning, especially when he's under duress. That being said, I've seen a ton of improvement in Teddy's mechanics over the past four weeks. It's obvious the coaches are working with him. Earlier in the season, he was throwing a lot from a low arm slot, even when he was comfortable in the pocket. More and more, he's setting his feet, getting on top of the ball and driving it. His long TD to Johnson against the Jets was a great example, just a beautiful throw, and we saw good mechanics early in yesterday's game. The problem with Teddy is when protection breaks down and he can't get his feet set, he lets the arm drop. If he can clean things up to where his mechanics stay sound when he's under duress, he'll take the next step.

Thanks for analysis. Very informative.

I read an article a few weeks ago about the Vikings coaches working with Teddy on his throwing mechanics. I think it's working. It's possible that during the off-season he may be able to drop some bad habits. I sure hope so. It's frustrating when he sails a pass over a WR. The coaches were also working with Bridgewater in the weight room. More than likely, his progress will continue to rise. He faced a darn good Lions defense yesterday and played much better than he did the last time against them, and he did it with a banged up OL.

[London Viking]

Still pissed over yesterday's defeat, we out played them in every area of the field (ok not special teams) with a stack of injuries as well..... it hurts now but i think in the bigger picture we're on the right track. Good to see Rhodes getting some acclaim now as well.

SKOL

[John_Viveiros]

Frankly, I think characterizing criticism of his INTs yesterday as nitpicking is a serious understatement. As I just posted in response to DKSweets, the game arguably turned on that first pick. It was certainly one of the game's most significant moments, if not the major turning point. When a mistake like that is almost immediately followed by another, even more egregious mistake and when those errors set the Lions up to reduce a 14-0 lead to 14-10, discussing them seems more than just nitpicking. They were very significant plays. It's not as if Teddy went 31-41 for 300+ yards (or whatever his final stats were... I think that's close) and no INTs and we're seeing a bunch of criticism of his footwork. The mistakes were big, game-altering mistakes.

Yes the first interception was a turning point, but my point has always been "Whose mistake was the first interception?". The discussion seems to imply that it's 100% Teddy's fault. No mention of mitigating circumstances. No mention of the WR getting tripped.

http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/vide ... e50e8618e9 -Charles Johnson says it was his fault.

Now, whether or not it was one guy or the other, I like the way Teddy didn't throw Johnson under the bus and blame Johnson. And I like how Johnson said it was a good throw, and he would have had it. Maybe even more so if it isn't true. It means the team - at least these two guys - have each other's backs in a way that petulant QB's (like Cutler?) wouldn't.

[DK Sweets]

Excellent post, Kapp.