"The Next Step" for Christian Ponder

[Mothman]

Looks to me like it was a designed rollout. Just like you said. I can't blame Ponder on this play. It's a play that if they bite on the fake run it works, if they don't bite, it sucks. Thing is, did they run from this formation earlier in the game? Had they done that then I think it might have worked. That would be interesting to find out.

Yes, it would. Since this was the first play of the second half, it seems likely that Musgrave was trying to take advantage of something they saw in the first half.

[Raptorman]

This brings up something that I have thought about over the years. If you run different plays from the same formation would it not be benefit to he offense? If you only have about 10 offensive formations how would the defense know what you are going to run? I just never paid attention to how many formations they use. Does anyone know?

[Mothman]

This brings up something that I have thought about over the years. If you run different plays from the same formation would it not be benefit to he offense? If you only have about 10 offensive formations how would the defense know what you are going to run? I just never paid attention to how many formations they use. Does anyone know?

I don't know how many they use but they definitely run different plays out of the same formations. As you said, teams do that so the defense won't know what's coming.

[Demi]

Any QB worth starting in the NFL makes that read, makes that throw, and we aren't having this stupid discussion....

[VikingLord]

I apologize if I sounded aggravated above. I just can't believe this nothing play is somehow being turned into evidence of Ponder's supposed incompetence.

I don't know if this will help illustrate what happened or just make things worse but since I can't just post film of the play, here's a sequence of quick snaps showing Ponder's motion during the beginning of the play. He steps back from center, does a quick fake toward Ellison, looks up to see if Jennings is through the line and immediately begins his rollout. You can't see it here but as 808 wrote above, Simpson doesn't look toward Ponder until the play is well underway . Literally everything about this play suggests it was designed to deceive the defense with a run formation, slip Jennings past the line and hit him with a pass on a designed rollout. There is nothing to suggest Ponder panicked and abandoned the pocket or even to suggest he was ever supposed to remain in the pocket.

So you're telling me that:

- This is a designed fake handoff to *Line* that is supposed to get the Lions to bite?
- That this is a designed rollout where the Vikings don't send AD out as a receiver and leave eight in to block?
- That this is a designed rollout where *none* of the offensive linemen pull in the direction of the planned roll or otherwise attempt to seal or direct the rushers in the opposite direction from the planned roll?
- If this is a designed roll, shouldn't Ponder immediately begin rolling once he fakes the handoff? Why set up as he does in the sequence of pics you posted and then start rolling? Is this what you would call a delayed rollout? Have you ever seen an NFL offense run such a play?

Jim, you can certainly interpret this any way you want, and I do see that it can be interpreted your way, so I'll give you and others who choose that interpretation that. However, if you're not going to blame Ponder on this, *someone* deserves the blame. If this is a designed play as you appear to believe, it has got to be one of the worst play designs I've ever seen. It relies on a fake handoff to a non-factor back, it has the QB then set up and scan the field before rolling, it has no blockers moving in the direction of the rollout, and it allows the defense to afford to have not one, but *two* DBs bite on the fake, and you still have your only read on the play covered.

I'm no more eager to blame Ponder on this than you seem to be to absolve him. In my opinion, the shots you show only show Ponder doing what Ponder has done since he arrived in Minny - abandoning the pocket too early, locking on to a receiver, and then abandoning the play too early. I will give him credit for not attempting the throw. He did avoid making it worse.

As far as my comment about Simpson being open, had Ponder stayed in the pocket as he should have, the throw to Simpson would have been relatively easy and he would not have had to throw across his body.

This is beyond frustrating because we don't know if this was designed or if this was Ponder. If this is Musgrave, he should know that he's leaving Ponder to hang by not stepping up and taking more responsibility for the plays as called.

Let's see what happens on Sunday. Everyone gets another chance to redeem themselves, but if this offense keeps looking like garbage this sort of criticism is only going to grow, and if Frazier, Musgrave, and Ponder keep passing the buck to the blocking and routes I'd expect they're going to start seeing some ill effects in the locker room, much less on this message board.

[VikingLord]

Also, just look at those pictures closely. That is the definition of an offensive line creating a pocket, is it not? Look at how they are set up. If that is how an oline is taught to block on a planned rollout, how should they block when the QB is supposed to stay in the pocket? Or is that part of the deception too?

[Reignman]

Looks like a pretty solid pocket to me, by NFL standards. Plus 8 guys blocking 5? Wasn't it just the niners game in preseason where they were trying to work on getting him to stay in the pocket longer?

[mondry]

So you're telling me that:

- This is a designed fake handoff to *Line* that is supposed to get the Lions to bite?
- That this is a designed rollout where the Vikings don't send AD out as a receiver and leave eight in to block?
- That this is a designed rollout where *none* of the offensive linemen pull in the direction of the planned roll or otherwise attempt to seal or direct the rushers in the opposite direction from the planned roll?
- If this is a designed roll, shouldn't Ponder immediately begin rolling once he fakes the handoff? Why set up as he does in the sequence of pics you posted and then start rolling? Is this what you would call a delayed rollout? Have you ever seen an NFL offense run such a play?

Jim, you can certainly interpret this any way you want, and I do see that it can be interpreted your way, so I'll give you and others who choose that interpretation that. However, if you're not going to blame Ponder on this, *someone* deserves the blame. If this is a designed play as you appear to believe, it has got to be one of the worst play designs I've ever seen. It relies on a fake handoff to a non-factor back, it has the QB then set up and scan the field before rolling, it has no blockers moving in the direction of the rollout, and it allows the defense to afford to have not one, but *two* DBs bite on the fake, and you still have your only read on the play covered.

I'm no more eager to blame Ponder on this than you seem to be to absolve him. In my opinion, the shots you show only show Ponder doing what Ponder has done since he arrived in Minny - abandoning the pocket too early, locking on to a receiver, and then abandoning the play too early. I will give him credit for not attempting the throw. He did avoid making it worse.

As far as my comment about Simpson being open, had Ponder stayed in the pocket as he should have, the throw to Simpson would have been relatively easy and he would not have had to throw across his body.

This is beyond frustrating because we don't know if this was designed or if this was Ponder. If this is Musgrave, he should know that he's leaving Ponder to hang by not stepping up and taking more responsibility for the plays as called.

Let's see what happens on Sunday. Everyone gets another chance to redeem themselves, but if this offense keeps looking like garbage this sort of criticism is only going to grow, and if Frazier, Musgrave, and Ponder keep passing the buck to the blocking and routes I'd expect they're going to start seeing some ill effects in the locker room, much less on this message board.

You hit the nail on the head there. If it's not a Ponder mistake then it's another horrible play call by Musgrave. Max protect on a designed roll out that has play action to zach line? So many things about that just don't make any sense. That leads me to think it's a Musgrave problem.

[Eli]

Watch the play in real-time. It's not a designed rollout. There's a pocket that Ponder never steps into, but it collapses pretty quickly as the left DE who blows right through Kyle Rudolph and the blitzing LB on the same side flush Ponder out almost instantly.

One odd thing about the blocking is that the LB threatening blitz between the left DT and DE is right over Loadholt, but as soon as the ball is snapped, Loadholt blocks down on the DT Suh, doubling him with Sullivan. The blitzing LB comes through the hole and consumes both Peterson and Ellison. Five rushers totally blew up eight Vikings blockers. Loadholt looked looked lost on the play and Rudolph and Ellison got their butts handed to them.

[maembe]

Watch the play in real-time. It's not a designed rollout. There's a pocket that Ponder never steps into, but it collapses pretty quickly as the left DE who blows right through Kyle Rudolph and the blitzing LB on the same side flush Ponder out almost instantly.

Yeah, you can see the guy on the left getting straight through Rudolph up the middle. I guess I don't know the timing of the play, but from the looks of those screen shots, it looks like stepping up would have resulted in Ponder getting levelled.

[Mothman]

Watch the play in real-time. It's not a designed rollout. There's a pocket that Ponder never steps into, but it collapses pretty quickly as the left DE who blows right through Kyle Rudolph and the blitzing LB on the same side flush Ponder out almost instantly.

One odd thing about the blocking is that the LB threatening blitz between the left DT and DE is right over Loadholt, but as soon as the ball is snapped, Loadholt blocks down on the DT Suh, doubling him with Sullivan. The blitzing LB comes through the hole and consumes both Peterson and Ellison. Five rushers totally blew up eight Vikings blockers. Loadholt looked looked lost on the play and Rudolph and Ellison got their butts handed to them.

I can buy that interpretation and thank you for posting it. In fact, having watched the play in the light of a new day instead of watching it frustrated, at the end of a long work day, I'll admit I misinterpreted the rollout. I also went too far in saying there was nothing to suggest Ponder was ever supposed to remain in the pocket. That wasn't accurate. I apologize.

I also apologize for letting my obvious aggravation get the best of my judgment in a few posts toward the end of the discussion above. Sorry. I honestly try to be unbiased about this stuff but like everyone else, I don't always succeed.

I think the intent to slip Jennings past the line and get the ball to him is pretty clear. Eli, your comments about Loadholt, Ellison and Rudolph are right on target and if Ponder had tried to step up to his left it looks like this play would almost certainly have ended badly because the defender that beats Rudolph was heading right for that area.

In the end it's a play for no gain that doesn't amount to much one way or another. I find it pretty hard to see it as an indictment of Ponder or even Musgrave. They tried something, the Lions defended it well. Second and 10...

[PacificNorseWest]

Yeah, it's hard to give a complete analysis without seeing a video, but I won't go all out in blaming Ponder here. Rudolph needs inside leverage on that play because while, for the most part, the pocket is formed, Ponder's sightline is definitely obscured by the release of Rudolph's man. I don't see any problems with him rolling out right there.

[Mothman]

Yeah, it's hard to give a complete analysis without seeing a video, but I won't go all out in blaming Ponder here. Rudolph needs inside leverage on that play because while, for the most part, the pocket is formed, Ponder's sightline is definitely obscured by the release of Rudolph's man. I don't see any problems with him rolling out right there.

It doesn't really look he had much choice. Rudolph's man is basically free by the time he reaches the pocket formed behind the lineman. As maembe wrote above, it looks like stepping up would have resulted in Ponder getting leveled.

There's no shortage of plays out there that feature Ponder making big mistakes but this doesn't seem to be one of them.

[VikingLord]

Sorry, but I can't give Ponder a pass for leaving the pocket based on the screen shots posted on this thread. To support my position I offer Exhibit A:



This shot appears to be nearly the 5th image in the following sequence, or what I will refer to as Exhibit B:



If so, I hope we can all agree that the image which reflects Ponder's moment of decision as to when to bail on the pocket is the 4th image of Exhibit B. If you do not agree with that, you can stop reading right now.

Now what is so key about this sequence of images is shown in Exhibit A. In Exhibit A, which is presumably the frame just after the moment of bail, Jerome Simpson has come out of his break and could see the ball coming, even if it was in the air at that moment. True, it does appear that #91 of the Lions might just be about to invade the pocket, but there is still a pocket and Ponder is sufficiently deep that he is not a direct threat. Rudolph is losing him inside, but he has not disposed of Rudolph quite yet.

So if the germane moment before the decision to bail is frame #4 of Exhibit B, then I can't give Ponder a pass on this play. Even if we say that Simpson hasn't come out of his break, he is just about to and he's wide open. Had Ponder released the ball at that point knowing where Simpson's route was going, I'd say the chances of a nice mid-range completion were very high.

But look where Ponder's head is. He's NOT EVEN LOOKING AT HIM. The entire drop, his eyes never leave Jennings, and when Jennings is not open and Ponder senses that pressure from #91, he bolts, still fixated on Jennings. Simpson remains largely wide open for 90% of that play, but Ponder never even looks his way.

This is clearly a lost opportunity. The evidence is right there for everyone to see. 2 reads on the play and Ponder never even attempts his 2nd.

This kind of tape is exactly why defenses are going to stop respecting the pass when they play the Vikings as I think this sort of sequence is fairly typical. An NFL QB in this situation has to keep that 2nd guy in play and see the coverage. Ponder doesn't do that. Jennings is his first, and only, read. Simpson may as well not even have left the LOS after the snap, which makes his determination to remain in the play even more impressive IMHO, as he must know Ponder would likely never look at him.

[VikingLord]

Yeah, it's hard to give a complete analysis without seeing a video, but I won't go all out in blaming Ponder here. Rudolph needs inside leverage on that play because while, for the most part, the pocket is formed, Ponder's sightline is definitely obscured by the release of Rudolph's man. I don't see any problems with him rolling out right there.

When the play is taken in isolation, I could agree with you.

When the play is taken in the context of Ponder's "body of work", it's a damning indictment of the failure of Ponder's awareness to mature.

Got to be able to keep your 2 reads viable when you only have 2 reads at the pro level. By not doing that he had no choice but to roll. And this happens with him all the time. We've seen this same thing since his first start.