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I don't see it that way. As coordinators, they both coached top 10 defenses in multiple years. Frazier proved he was a good DC. Zimmer has proven that too. It doesn't mean he'll be a good head coach but I hope he'll be a good head coach.

Frazier had ONE year where his defense was top 10 in points and yards (Funny, the year Favre showed up...). Zimmer had 4. Of the last 5 years. In points and yards.

Turner is definitely a more proven OC than Musgrave and that's encouraging but what has Edwards proven as a defensive coordinator?

What does he needs to prove? Zimmer is running the defense. And he's had an elite defense he was in charge of for the last number of years. He's still going to be hands on. It isn't like Turner is the head coach and the defense is handed over to Edwards...

I think it's a staff with a great chance to succeed IF the talent is upgraded and their teams stay relatively healthy but other than Turner, I don't see it as a given that this staff is an upgrade over the last one.

Really? You don't see Zimmer as an upgrade over Frazier when it comes to their history as coordinators? One was just fired and the other replaces him, but it's not a given? Zimmer could fall flat on his face as a head coach, and he's be right where Frazier was when he was fired. I think it's a given the guy who had better defensive rankings four of the last five years than the other guy has a better chance to succeed...especially when he doesn't run a system, and stick to it religiously, that we watched literally lose games for the last few years.

I don't think Zimmer is a miracle worker. But acting like he's not an upgrade over Frazier?
Someone has been watching a bit too much of the super bowl shuffle me thinks.

Demi wrote: Frazier had ONE year where his defense was top 10 in points and yards (Funny, the year Favre showed up...). Zimmer had 4. Of the last 5 years. In points and yards.
What does he needs to prove? Zimmer is running the defense. And he's had an elite defense he was in charge of for the last number of years. He's still going to be hands on. It isn't like Turner is the head coach and the defense is handed over to Edwards...
Really? You don't see Zimmer as an upgrade over Frazier when it comes to their history as coordinators? One was just fired and the other replaces him, but it's not a given? Zimmer could fall flat on his face as a head coach, and he's be right where Frazier was when he was fired. I think it's a given the guy who had better defensive rankings four of the last five years than the other guy has a better chance to succeed...especially when he doesn't run a system, and stick to it religiously, that we watched literally lose games for the last few years.

I don't think Zimmer is a miracle worker. But acting like he's not an upgrade over Frazier?
Someone has been watching a bit too much of the super bowl shuffle me thinks.

Where is all this positive stuff coming from? An up grade in staff. ? Who are you and what have you done with demi?

Mothman wrote: Yes, I can imagine it but I hope I don't have to SEE it. I'm hoping for improvement.
I don't see it that way. As coordinators, they both coached top 10 defenses in multiple years. Frazier proved he was a good DC. Zimmer has proven that too. It doesn't mean he'll be a good head coach but I hope he'll be a good head coach.

Turner is definitely a more proven OC than Musgrave and that's encouraging but what has Edwards proven as a defensive coordinator?

I think it's a staff with a great chance to succeed IF the talent is upgraded and their teams stay relatively healthy but other than Turner, I don't see it as a given that this staff is an upgrade over the last one. Again, I hope it's an upgrade but even if it is, I don't think the previous staff was bad. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of people who really want to believe Frazier and company were awful because then they can believe all the Vikings needed to do to get better was change coaches.

Although I can understand ,a lot of what you are saying, I do agree with most that zimmer will be better than Frazier

mmvikes wrote:Although I can understand ,a lot of what you are saying, I do agree with most that zimmer will be better than Frazier

That's understandable. I think that's what most people want to believe. I'm certainly hoping it's true. I'm just not interested in disparaging Frazier because overall, I don't think he did a bad job with what he had and while I'm optimistic about Zimmer, I'm not interested in making declarations about what he will do either because I don't know what he'll do. It's that simple. I don't see any "given" here with a first time head coach. I have hopes and expectations, like everybody else, but comments like the one 808vikingsfan made above? Zimmer's never handled a QB situation. We have no idea how he'll handle that position if he ends up with a messy situation like the one Frazier faced last year.

By the way, 808vikingsfan, I mean no offense by that. I just don't think anybody knows "for sure" how things will go for Zimmer or how he'll handle difficult personnel decisions, particularly when it comes to the marquee position of QB, which can be a coach killer. He's never had to deal with that.

Mothman wrote: That's understandable. I think that's what most people want to believe. I'm certainly hoping it's true. I'm just not interested in disparaging Frazier because overall, I don't think he did a bad job with what he had and while I'm optimistic about Zimmer, I'm not interested in making declarations about what he will do either because I don't know what he'll do. It's that simple. I don't see any "given" here with a first time head coach. I have hopes and expectations, like everybody else, but comments like the one 808vikingsfan made above? Zimmer's never handled a QB situation. We have no idea how he'll handle that position if he ends up with a messy situation like the one Frazier faced last year.

By the way, 808vikingsfan, I mean no offense by that. I just don't think anybody knows "for sure" how things will go for Zimmer or how he'll handle difficult personnel decisions, particularly when it comes to the marquee position of QB, which can be a coach killer. He's never had to deal with that.

Its pretty safe to assume that anyone will handle the qb situation better than Frazier, because the qb situation was essentially a Frazier situation. It was Frazier's utter incompetence as HC, his utter inability to adjust to the obvious until it was too late to salvage individual games or the season, that perpetuated the QB mess. It wasn't because of what you perceive as the inability of any QB to set himself apart as the clear choice. One did set himself apart, but you and Frazier refused (and still refuse) to see it. This was a monumental, blatantly obvious coaching error. There is no reason to believe Zimmer or anyone else could possibly be that blind.

Webbfann wrote: Its pretty safe to assume that anyone will handle the qb situation better than Frazier, because the qb situation was essentially a Frazier situation. It was Frazier's utter incompetence as HC, his utter inability to adjust to the obvious until it was too late to salvage individual games or the season, that perpetuated the QB mess. It wasn't because of what you perceive as the inability of any QB to set himself apart as the clear choice. One did set himself apart, but you and Frazier refused (and still refuse) to see it. This was a monumental, blatantly obvious coaching error. There is no reason to believe Zimmer or anyone else could possibly be that blind.

Yeah, you could really tell how much Cassel had set himself apart during his second start while he was throwing picks and the Vikings were losing to Carolina 35-3 late in the 4th quarter of a blowout loss. He really seized the opportunity Frazier gave him that day to take the job and keep it. It was equally clear in his next appearance, when he came in to relieve Ponder after the latter's second INT in Seattle and promptly threw an INT two or three plays later. Even after he got the job, his superiority was painfully obvious while the Vikings were being blown out again at Cincy and he was hurling 3 more interceptions to Zimmer's defense. Who can forget the way he missed a wide open Jared Allen in the endzone in the final game of the season and then threw a red zone pick to Louis Delmas two plays later to kill the Vikings chance to score?

Of course, his vastly superior 81.6 passer rating towered over Ponder's 77.9 and when you factor in his obvious superiority over the previous two seasons with the Chiefs, when he completed under 60% of his passes, threw 21 INTs in 17 games and had ratings of 66.7 and 76.6, it really is hard to see how Frazier missed the obvious stud QB in his midst.

Give me a break. I don't refuse to see how Cassel set himself apart, I just don't have an axe to grind against Ponder that blinds me to the qualities of the other QBs on the team. My eyes are open wide enough to see that for the most part, Cassel barely set himself apart at all and didn't really do so until later in the season. He definitely does some things better than Ponder but he's no more reliable or consistent and he's just as mistake-prone. He delivered one performance, against Philadelphia, that I'd consider completely beyond Ponder at this point in his career. Unfortunately, he also delivered some of the least effective performances by a Vikings QB last year not named Freeman.

The QB situation wasn't a "Frazier situation". If anything, it was a "Spielman situation", the result of a team with 3 backups and no legitimate starters. I know, I know... if they had only made Joe Webb the starting QB, the sky was the limit...

Edit: By the way, I know I laid the sarcasm on pretty thick there but I'm tired of hearing about the "utter incompetence" of Leslie Frazier from armchair coaches like yourself. It's not because I have any bias or personal axe to grind against Matt Cassel. I see him as a player with a good attitude who gives his all on the field and simply runs up against the wall of his own limitations at times.

Mothman wrote:

Yeah, you could really tell how much Cassel had set himself apart during his second start while he was throwing picks and the Vikings were losing to Carolina 35-3 late in the 4th quarter of a blowout loss. he really seized the opportunity Frazier gave him that day to take the job and keep it. It was equally clear in his next appearance, when he came in to relieve Ponder after the latter's second INT in Seattle and promptly threw an INT two or three plays later. Even after he got the job, his superiority was painfully obvious while the Vikings were being blown out again at Cincy and he was hurling 3 more interceptions to Zimmer's defense. Who can forget the way he missed a wide open Jared Allen in the endzone in the final game of the season and then threw a red zone pick to Louis Delmas two plays later to kill the Vikings chance to score?

Of course, his vastly superior 81.6 passer rating towered over Ponder's 77.9 and when you factor in his obvious superiority over the previous two seasons with the Chiefs, when he completed under 60% of his passes, threw 21 INTs in 17 games and had ratings of 66.7 and 76.6. when you consider all of the above, it really is hard to see how Frazier missed the obvious stud QB in his midst.

Give me a break. I don't refuse to see how Cassel set himself apart, I just don't have an axe to grind against Ponder that blinds me to the qualities of the other QBs on the team. My eyes open wide enough to see that for the most part, Cassel barely set himself apart at all and didn't really do so until later in the season. He definitely does some things better than Ponder but he's no more reliable or consistent and he's just as mistake-prone. He delivered one performance, against Philadelphia, that I'd consider completely beyond Ponder at this point in his career. Unfortunately, he also delivered some of the least effective performances by a Vikings QB last year not named Freeman.

The QB situation wasn't a "Frazier situation". If anything, it was a "Spielman situation", the result of a team with 3 backups and no legitimate starters. I know, I know... if they had only made Joe Webb the starting QB, the sky was the limit...

It will never end, will it Jim

Mothman wrote: Turner is definitely a more proven OC than Musgrave and that's encouraging but what has Edwards proven as a defensive coordinator?

I think it's a staff with a great chance to succeed IF the talent is upgraded and their teams stay relatively healthy but other than Turner, I don't see it as a given that this staff is an upgrade over the last one.

You also don't see that Cassel is an unpgrade over Ponder, so this doesn't surprise me. You also don't see that you are biased against Cassel even though you never mention his good games or his wins (except to negate them by saying yeah we won, BUT...) or his good stats while you relentlessly point out his bad. Right now on another thread you are talking about his second start, after being benched after a win, but no mention of his first start which gave us our first win. Hello? I wonder what your definition of bias is? It sure isn't how the rest of the world defines it. You don't see how a coach (Zimmer) who consistently obtains much better results from his players than Frazier is an upgrade? Nobody can make you see it. You have to make an effort to see through your bias towards your favorite peoples so you can learn to see others objectively on their own merits.

Webbfann wrote:You also don't see that Cassel is an unpgrade over Ponder, so this doesn't surprise me. You also don't see that you are biased against Cassel even though you never mention his good games or his wins (except to negate them by saying yeah we won, BUT...) or his good stats while you relentlessly point out his bad.

I'm not biased against Cassel. I point out his bad stats in the context of debates with people like you who want to proclaim him to be something he's not.

Right now on another thread you are talking about his second start, after being benched after a win, but no mention of his first start which gave us our first win. Hello? I wonder what your definition of bias is? It sure isn't how the rest of the world defines it.

LOL! It isn't? If you admittedly don't know how I define bias, how can you possibly tell if I define it the way the rest of the world does?

Trust me, my definition of bias is the same definition you'll find in most dictionaries and I have no bias against Matt Cassel. I have no reason to be biased against him.

If you want to talk about his first start, I'll be happy to do that. I didn't think he set himself apart. I said at the time that I thought he played pretty much like Ponder in that game. He made some nice throws over the middle but also threw several passes that should have been picked and weren't and was fortunate when Simpson recovered his fumble. He threw a simple out route that Greg Jennings turned into a long TD with a great run and a second TD to Jennings that was a beautiful read and throw. In the end, just as in previous games with Ponder at QB, when Cassel and the offense needed to put together a good, sustained drive to seal the game, they couldn't do it and it came down to defense in the final minutes. Unlike in previous weeks, the defense sealed the win. Cassel's performance was good enough to earn him a second start and a chance to really set himself apart and seize the job which, as I pointed out above, he failed to do.

You don't see how a coach (Zimmer) who consistently obtains much better results from his players than Frazier is an upgrade?

I've already said that I think he could be an upgrade. I'm just not assuming it. It hardly seems unreasonable to take the position that he hasn't proven it yet because... wait for it... he hasn't proven it yet. Zimmer hasn't coached a game for the Vikings. How can you, I or anybody else possibly know that he's an upgrade? He's taking on a role he's never had before and it's a role that requires different skills than being a coordinator. Some coordinators make that transition and are immensely successful and for others, including Frazier, it doesn't work out.

Nobody can make you see it. You have to make an effort to see through your bias towards your favorite peoples so you can learn to see others objectively on their own merits.

How am I being unobjective? I don't think I'm the one who's allowing a strong bias to color his opinions here. I'm not insisting that a veteran QB whose overall stats and performances over the exact same period of time as Ponder's first 3 seasons are very comparable is such a huge upgrade that it was "utter incompetence" not to see it or that a coach who hasn't coached a single game as an NFL head coach is clearly an upgrade when he hasn't proven his effectiveness yet. I'm taking a reasonable position and backing my views with stats and facts about actual performances, not assumptions based on... bias!

If Zimmer's a better head coach than Frazier, he'll prove it and I'll be happy. As for Cassel, am I wrong in saying he played so poorly that his former team cut him and that last year, even though he played some of the best games we saw from a Vikings QB all year, he was also the QB in 3 of their 4 least productive offensive performances? Is it biased or accurate to say he was inconsistent and unreliable? Has he or has he not thrown more INTs than TDs in the past 3 seasons? Is this a trait you want in a starting QB?

I'm being objective about Matt Cassel. You just don't want to hear it.

Webbfann wrote: You also don't see that Cassel is an unpgrade over Ponder, so this doesn't surprise me. You also don't see that you are biased against Cassel even though you never mention his good games or his wins (except to negate them by saying yeah we won, BUT...) or his good stats while you relentlessly point out his bad. Right now on another thread you are talking about his second start, after being benched after a win, but no mention of his first start which gave us our first win. Hello? I wonder what your definition of bias is? It sure isn't how the rest of the world defines it. You don't see how a coach (Zimmer) who consistently obtains much better results from his players than Frazier is an upgrade? Nobody can make you see it. You have to make an effort to see through your bias towards your favorite peoples so you can learn to see others objectively on their own merits.

Sorry, but you're wrong. Cassel was and is terrible. He was almost statistically identical to Ponder. I still can't understand what the Cassel people are seeing.
You mentioned a specific start. Let's talk about all of the games they played. They each had one game where they dominated. They both had three starts where they crapped their pants. Their other games were more or less mediocre, which is what you would expect from two mediocre quarterbacks.

They played in the exact same number of games.

Cassel had a slightly higher rating. Ponder had a slightly higher QBR.

Cassel had 12 total TDs and 9 picks. Ponder had 11 total TDs and 9 picks.

Cassel had about 50 more total yards, or 5.5 yards per game. The team produced about 3 more points per game when Ponder was QB.

Ponder had a little bit better completion percentage. Cassel had a slightly higher yards per completion.

So, this begs the question. What is it that makes Cassel so much better? If he is better, why hasn't he been able to produce better results? Keep in mind this was an above average season by Cassel's standards, yet he was statistically still right in line with Ponder, who was worse than he played the previous year.

You're accusing people of not being objective. So let's hear your objective of analysis of why Cassel is so much better.

I think it's safe to say that Mothman has a serious man crush on Frazier

This is above and beyond an upgraded coaching staff. There is no way around it. I can't believe some are arguing that

Pondering Her Percy wrote:I think it's safe to say that Mothman has a serious man crush on Frazier

No, I'm just annoyed by the hyperbolic criticism directed at him. It gets ridiculous. I think he made some mistakes as a head coach but when I read almost daily that he was "terrible", "utterly incompetent" and not a "real coach", I respond because I don't feel that's fair or accurate.

This is above and beyond an upgraded coaching staff. There is no way around it. I can't believe some are arguing that

... and I'm supposed to be the one with the man crush? You keep talking about how much of an upgrade Zimmer is and how much better he's going to make the team and he hasn't coached a game yet. I hope you're right but that sounds a lot more like a man crush to me.

I've stated that Turner is an upgrade at OC. Beyond that, I say let these coaches prove it. Edwards certainly isn't an automatic upgrade as defensive coordinator and I prefer to see how Zimmer does as a head coach before deciding how well he handles the job. I know, that's crazy, like waiting to see how a rookie performs before declaring whether or not he was a good draft pick.

I agree with Jim in that Turner is the only one who is proven at the position they currently hold. Coincidentally, he's also a good example of someone who is a good coordinator who was unable to transition well to the head coach role.

What keeps me optimistic is Zimmer's hire of Turner. I think he recognizes that his strength is in defense and he needed a strong OC to hold the reigns for now. It's a good indicator that he can put his ego aside and realize his shortcomings. Assuming there's a solid synergy between the two and Zimmer keeps a hands on approach to the defense, both sides of the football should see an upgrade. The real unknown is all of the executive decisions Zimmer will need to make as a HC. He's going to have a lot more people in his ear as a HC than a DC, how he'll handle that is probably one of the bigger unknowns. We've seen a lot of guys that are really good coordinators but that's their ceiling. Hopefully Zimmer isn't one of them.

(Seriously when did April start to have 45 days? This month is taking forever, is it May yet?!?!?)

S197 wrote:(Seriously when did April start to have 45 days? This month is taking forever, is it May yet?!?!?)

Mothman wrote: No, I'm just annoyed by the hyperbolic criticism directed at him. It gets ridiculous. I think he made some mistakes as a head coach but when I read almost daily that he was "terrible", "utterly incompetent" and not a "real coach", I respond because I don't feel that's fair or accurate.
... and I'm supposed to be the one with the man crush? You keep talking about how much of an upgrade Zimmer is and how much better he's going to make the team and he hasn't coached a game yet. I hope you're right but that sounds a lot more like a man crush to me.

I've stated that Turner is an upgrade at OC. Beyond that, I say let these coaches prove it. Edwards certainly isn't an automatic upgrade as defensive coordinator and I prefer to see how Zimmer does as a head coach before deciding how well he handles the job. I know, that's crazy, like waiting to see how a rookie performs before declaring whether or not he was a good draft pick.

It has nothing to do with having a man crush on this staff!!! They are PROVEN offensive and defensive minds. Its quite obvious. You also missed what I mentioned earlier.....I don't care about Edwards. Zimmer is going to tell Edwards what to do and he is going to do it. So you can call Zimmer our head coach and DC as well. Turner and Zimmer are two of the best offensive and defensive minds in the game.

Frazier was in over his head. He had no balls and would never bench the bums that he had playing. It took injuries and off the field issues for him to finally put guys like Cole, Rhodes, and CP in the game. Handling the QB situation was horrible. His game management was horrible. His decision making was horrible. I mean that's pretty poor coaching in my eyes. Did you not watch these games and see the same thing that everyone else did?? He was not a good coach bottom line. It sounds like he was a great guy from what the players have said, but he is not a good coach. If it wasn't for AP, he would have never been to the playoffs as a head coach.

Bottom line is, nobody expected anything out of Frazier, Musgrave and Williams because they never proved a thing before getting hired and in turn, the only thing they ended up proving was that they weren't good coaches. Now we have 2 guys that have proven more than enough throughout their years in the NFL and are very experienced. Zimmer is a guy that utilizes players based on their skill set and what they are good at. He adapts to his players unlike Frazier ever did.

Until you tell me what he was "good" at other than being a nice guy, I will never change my opinion on him and his terrible coaching staff.