Vikings Message Board.Com

mondry wrote: I too hope like heck we can keep harvin, and I actually would be okay paying him top WR money as I think he is a top receiver, as well as being the best return man in the NFL. (imo anyway) However he hasn't proven he can handle the kind of work load that comes along with that role and stay healthy. Combine that with the "attitude" stuff and I think a more realistic price tag would be around half as much.

Harvin isn't a WR in Johnson's league, but some of that is because Harvin and Johnson have two different job descriptions. I think Johnson is one of the best pure wide outs in the NFL, if not the best. And he's an every down player, if need be. OTOH, Percy is more of an all-around offensive machine. He's a slot receiver who can occasionally play wide out, plus he's an effective RB out of the backfield and he's a deadly returner. And then there is the physical size difference between the two guys.

I'm not sure Johnson and Harvin can even be fairly compared with each other. Two different players, in my view.

I think Harvin is a great slot receiver, return man, and general X-factor on offense.

A split receiver or deep threat, I think not. To me, he looks extremely uncomfortable on the outside and does not have good ball skills when running downfield. Even when Favre was here when he did get some deep balls downfield, it seemed it was always finding an open spot in the zone, facing the QB. I think he looks awkward running away from the QB trying to make a play on a ball over his shoulder.

I'm not saying he isn't great at what he does, but he's no Fitzgerald.

Tom Pelissero provides a good overall perspective on the situation that made me wonder how much we don't know:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Peli ... spot021313

There's plenty of interest in the article but this section really jumped out at me:

Harvin long has been respected for his ability and fearless approach, but one veteran teammate who has been Harvin's ally in the past said on Wednesday his volatile personality has become "too big of a problem" to make a major commitment.

"In my mind, it really comes down to whether (Vikings general manager) Rick Spielman, (vice president of football operations) Rob Brzezinski and those guys see Harvin as long-term," said ESPN NFL business analyst Andrew Brandt, who was the Green Bay Packers' chief contract negotiator from 1999 to 2008.

"If they don't, we're dealing with a lame-duck year one way or another. If they do, try to create some kind of contractual situation that works for both sides. I don't think anyone doubts that he's a special player. He's a blue (chip) player. The question is, can they live with whatever else that brings in terms of off-field, in terms of infecting anyone in the locker room?"

There also are concerns within the Vikings organization about the rate at which Harvin will age, given his style of play and a variety of health concerns more extensive and complicated than anyone outside the organization knows.

That last sentence is very interesting.

I thought Pelissero summed the situation up as well as anybody with these two sentences:

The ultimate question isn't whether a team would want Percy Harvin, who could elevate any offense in the NFL.

The question is whether a team would want Percy Harvin, who has placed himself in the position where these conversations even need to take place.

This link is to an article about the top WRs in free agency, written by Mike Freeman. However, he discusses Harvin and drops the the interesting info quoted below:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2169 ... -offseason

He's told at least one Vikings teammate he wants to be paid among the top three wide receivers in football. Not top 10. Not top five. Top three. There are some insane teams in the NFL that would give a turdtastic man like Harvin that kind of money, too. But the coach of that team had better wear headgear when Harvin is in a bad mood.

As you can tell, he's a not a Harvin fan.

The info is similar to what has already been posted but I thought I'd share it anyway. As far as I'm concerned, there's no way the Vikes should pay Harvin like one of the top 3 WRs in the league so, as others have said, hopefully that's just a starting point Harvin and his agent are using in negotiations.

Mothman wrote:This link is to an article about the top WRs in free agency, written by Mike Freeman. However, he discusses Harvin and drops the the interesting info quoted below:

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/2169 ... -offseason
As you can tell, he's a not a Harvin fan.

The info is similar to what has already been posted but I thought I'd share it anyway. As far as I'm concerned, there's no way the Vikes should pay Harvin like one of the top 3 WRs in the league so, as others have said, hopefully that's just a starting point Harvin and his agent are using in negotiations.

OMG the infamous, unnamed veteren team mate said...... These journalists should have their feet held to the fire when they come up with this kind of BS and do not substantiate their sources. And if they are found out to be fabricating this type of information then they need to be sued for defamation. I am not saying that "unnamed sources" do not ever exist and they are used in journalism but they seem to conveniently pop up way to often and are found out to be fabricated.
No offense to you Jim, it is just my opinion.

It'd be refreshing if AD rubbed off a little more on Harvin. Do your job, be a superstar, be a professional and you'll get paid. He has to know that his actions are/have probably costing him $$ in the long run, right? AD needs to sit him down and put his mind right. Or just sit on him.

dead_poet wrote:It'd be refreshing if AD rubbed off a little more on Harvin. Do your job, be a superstar, be a professional and you'll get paid. He has to know that his actions are/have probably costing him $$ in the long run, right? AD needs to sit him down and put his mind right. Or just sit on him.

I totally agree and I will bet that they do interact with each other. This team is on the verge of greatness and I hope that Harvin wants to be a vital part of it.

dead_poet wrote:It'd be refreshing if AD rubbed off a little more on Harvin. Do your job, be a superstar, be a professional and you'll get paid. He has to know that his actions are/have probably costing him $$ in the long run, right? AD needs to sit him down and put his mind right. Or just sit on him.

The thing is: He hasn't said a word and media folks keep speculating things. I'm curious if he really demanded 8 figure money....and not just some Pete Brisco made up

Mothman wrote:Tom Pelissero provides a good overall perspective on the situation that made me wonder how much we don't know:

http://www.1500espn.com/sportswire/Peli ... spot021313

I thought Pelissero summed the situation up as well as anybody with these two sentences:

Whew! Well, that's it. When an unnamed player and unnamed AFC personnel director make comments, then you know it has to be true. Who could possibly know more about the situation than them?

The best news source so far has been someone who offered a quote and their name - Coach Frazier. He said he loves Harvin and wants him on the team. That's one of the reasons why I like Frazier. As usual, he's been more above board than anyone. I'll take his word over the unnamed sources.

Here's an idea. How about if the Vikings keep Harvin and Tom Pelissero covers a different team from now on? Everybody is happy.

Purple bruise wrote:OMG the infamous, unnamed veteren team mate said...... These journalists should have their feet held to the fire when they come up with this kind of BS and do not substantiate their sources. And if they are found out to be fabricating this type of information then they need to be sued for defamation. I am not saying that "unnamed sources" do not ever exist and they are used in journalism but they seem to conveniently pop up way to often and are found out to be fabricated.
No offense to you Jim, it is just my opinion.

No offense taken.

I understand what you're saying but I think it's a little different when a beat writer who clearly has connections with the team and access to players quotes an unnamed player source. We know he's in a good position to get a quote like that and a reporter in that position can only be so specific about his source like if that player doesn't want his name on the record. To me, quoting a source as a veteran teammate carries a little more weight than something as vague as a "league source". As you said, unnamed sources are used in journalism and there's a good reason for that. I see no reason to believe this particular quote/source would be fabricated. Pelissero would have more to lose than to gain by doing that. An unnamed source never carries the weight of a named one but I don't think they should all be written off completely either.

The interesting part to me isn't the quote from the veteran player but the allusion to "a variety of health concerns more extensive and complicated than anyone outside the organization knows". Of course, Pelissero is outside the organization and he seems to know. Anyway, we know that Harvin has often played while banged up during his short NFL career. If concerns about his health and durability run deeper than than what we've seen from the outside, that has to be a serious consideration for the Vikings when Harvin is likely asking for a LOT of money.

Yeah, when even the journalists admit it's all speculation, then you know for sure that it's all just journalists trying to make a few bucks by submitting offseason fluff. They get paid for that, you know, and a lot of those guys don't get exactly rich by only reporting on the facts. The teams usually tolerate it because it keeps the fans engaged, etc.

When healthy, Harvin is one of the best weapons in the league. When Harvin was healthy this past season, Adrian Peterson wasn't. If they were both healthy, Christian Ponder probably would have looked like a much better quarterback. When opposing defenses have to deal with both of them at the top of their game, it makes it a lot easier on your young quarterback to make plays. I don't think the Vikings will give him up for a fight, but I'm thinking that Spielman knows that this draft is full of good receivers, that they need more than one to upgrade the corps, and that he's got a solid, flashy trade piece that rarely plays all 16. That's why the team hasn't gone all in on Harvin yet.

losperros wrote: Harvin isn't a WR in Johnson's league, but some of that is because Harvin and Johnson have two different job descriptions. I think Johnson is one of the best pure wide outs in the NFL, if not the best. And he's an every down player, if need be. OTOH, Percy is more of an all-around offensive machine. He's a slot receiver who can occasionally play wide out, plus he's an effective RB out of the backfield and he's a deadly returner. And then there is the physical size difference between the two guys.

I'm not sure Johnson and Harvin can even be fairly compared with each other. Two different players, in my view.

For sure, I don't believe I said harvin and johnson were similar though. As far as top receivers go I think there is more than one way to skin the cat. Sure he's not a replica of Johnson or Moss but when you talk about slot receivers, which is what he is, he's easily in the top 3, and again imo, probably the best. Welker has better stats but he also plays with Tom Brady.

All in all, my take looks like this. If they can get Harvin for 65-75 million and that makes him HAPPY, great! I still don't really understand what has made him so unhappy so I can't fully say but assuming the guy gets paid and wants to help his team in any way he can I'd be fine with that. If they think he'll get paid and still have issues, is a distraction, or stays a bad teammate then i'd be fine with them throwing that money at bowe or wallace. If they have to pay more than that I'd say let him go to another team and we can focus on our other problems. If they think he's damaged goods similar to sidney rice then another team will for sure be willing to give him more money than we will.

But again, without knowing the details, which reports are true or false, it's really hard to say one way or the other right now. We could easily be in a position where there is a zero % chance we can keep Harvin or even WANT to keep him, and yet at the same time I wouldn't be surprised if he gets a decent deal and becomes a happy camper and long time viking. Just have to wait and see I suppose.

losperros wrote: Whew! Well, that's it. When an unnamed player and unnamed AFC personnel director make comments, then you know it has to be true. Who could possibly know more about the situation than them?

The best news source so far has been someone who offered a quote and their name - Coach Frazier. He said he loves Harvin and wants him on the team. That's one of the reasons why I like Frazier. As usual, he's been more above board than anyone. I'll take his word over the unnamed sources.

Here's an idea. How about if the Vikings keep Harvin and Tom Pelissero covers a different team from now on? Everybody is happy.

Seriously. All Pelissero writes is conjecture. There is rarely any basis behind what he argues.

I honestly think this whole situation is a blaze because someone in the media overreacted to a minuet detail and proceeded to fabricate the truth.

Mothman wrote:I understand what you're saying but I think it's a little different when a beat writer who clearly has connections with the team and access to players quotes an unnamed player source. We know he's in a good position to get a quote like that and a reporter in that position can only be so specific about his source like if that player doesn't want his name on the record. To me, quoting a source as a veteran teammate carries a little more weight than something as vague as a "league source". As you said, unnamed sources are used in journalism and there's a good reason for that. I see no reason to believe this particular quote/source would be fabricated. Pelissero would have more to lose than to gain by doing that. An unnamed source never carries the weight of a named one but I don't think they should all be written off completely either.

Jim, in no way am I trying to give you a problem here, my friend. But very honestly I have to say that I still see a problem with this. If Pelissero really wants to talk to someone that Rick Spielman might take seriously, then he should talk to the Vikings head coach Leslie Frazier and the team's best player Adrian Peterson. Both of those guys want Harvin to remain with the team. I feel they carry more weight than a parade of Pelissero's unnamed sources ever could or should within the Vikings organization.

Let's forget Harvin for a second and look at the upcoming draft. Who will Spielman want inside the Vikings war room? I imagine Pelissero and his unnamed sources will have no say whatsoever regarding the draft board. OTOH, Leslie Frazier will at least have some say on what is needed from the draft to make the team get better. Maybe Pelissero should consider who actually knows what before he starts quoting an unnamed AFC personnel director about any Vikings player.

Last but not least, Pelissero's sources might be unnamed but he has been outwardly vocal in his advocacy to get rid of Harvin. Maybe he doesn't like Percy's facial hair, or he detests short slot receivers or any player that is #12, or he can't help but hate anybody from Florida, I don't know. I just know that Pelissero is fanning the trade talk flames in this story and I don't believe that's an accident. It's probably just to exploit the situation but that doesn't make his role in this any more valid.

Mothman wrote:The interesting part to me isn't the quote from the veteran player but the allusion to "a variety of health concerns more extensive and complicated than anyone outside the organization knows". Of course, Pelissero is outside the organization and he seems to know. Anyway, we know that Harvin has often played while banged up during his short NFL career. If concerns about his health and durability run deeper than than what we've seen from the outside, that has to be a serious consideration for the Vikings when Harvin is likely asking for a LOT of money.

I agree with this and understand your concern. However, another Vikings player just came back from a serious injury and won the league's MVP award. And Peterson did that with a hernia injury near the end of the season. AD got banged up a few times for the Sooners in college ball too, so much so that his durability was in question when he was drafted. Yet we saw AD carry the team on his back during the latter part of last season. Want to give him some much needed rest? Put another offensive stud like Harvin on the field with him. Who knows? That might even help extend Peterson's career. Maybe Ponder's health as well, given that he's been injured throughout his college and pro careers.

losperros wrote:Last but not least, Pelissero's sources might be unnamed but he has been outwardly vocal in his advocacy to get rid of Harvin.

That hasn't been my take at all. I've seen him toe the line and really not offer up much opinion, just "report" on information he has and make educated guesses on what the front office might do. YMMV. I don't think he has a hatred for Percy.