Vikings Message Board.Com

CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:44 am

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:42 am

It’s very much an oil and water situation,which is why I think extending Cousins would be a mistake. This offense as long as Zimmer is here is always going to be run first and conservative. Cousins simply takes up too much resources to shore up the line and isn’t elite enough to make it work with the line we have. They gave it a shot and they can try one more time next year but really I think it’s better to cut losses at this point. Either make it work next year or pivot to a new direction.

What do you mean by make it work. If it's Super Bowl then only two teams made it work. We made the playoffs and knocked off a division winner on the road. That's a good season. IMO our D needs the most help. They did a great job against Brees. Wilson got beat in the playoffs as well. He won't take that current team to the Super Bowl. They need a better D. They beat Philly but is that a great thing. Our ground game didn't do much as the season wore on. We had 20 yards rushing against the 48ers. That was a beat down to the max. Somethings wrong there to. Is it OL or RB. They need to cut the stiffs that take up a ton of CAP. The draft won't provide immediate help either. What OL players will be there in FA. That.s the biggest question.

fiestavike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 11:49 am

VikingPaul73 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:49 am

Another great post, well stated. It's not about Cousins vs. (insert name here). It's about Cousins vs. Contract.

Last paragraph is absolutely correct. Too many system changes on Offense, and not identifying the correct pieces for the chosen system . I guess when you change systems so frequently, it's hard to get the personnel sorted out, but Zimmer seems uncertain about what he wants. This was most obvious in 2018:
1. Hire the latest trendy new pass happy OC
2. Sign a shiny new QB to run the offense
3. after a few weeks, publicly call out your new OC for not Pounding the rock.

Its not mere correlation that when Zimmer's defenses perform best he also has an offense that can run the ball and convert 3rd downs. I think so long as he is our coordinator a complementary offense is going to be the identity of the vikings more than a high flying circus show offense. Given that, spending top 10 money on a QB is probably pretty foolish unless he is the kind of guy who has the ability to make 3rd down conversions on his own, with adaptability and athleticism. Clearly, that is not Kirk Cousins.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:47 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 12:42 am

It’s very much an oil and water situation,which is why I think extending Cousins would be a mistake. This offense as long as Zimmer is here is always going to be run first and conservative. Cousins simply takes up too much resources to shore up the line and isn’t elite enough to make it work with the line we have. They gave it a shot and they can try one more time next year but really I think it’s better to cut losses at this point. Either make it work next year or pivot to a new direction.

Agree with most of this the only thing is really disagree with is that cousins takes up too many resources to shore up the line. They have had enough money the last few years to spend where they want. Cousins isn’t saying “hey go sign defensive guys and give me nothing for an OL”. If anything, it’s on Zim and spielman for not putting more effort into the OL. I thought signing Kline was a good stop gap at guard. I thought he played decent this year and IMO was our second best lineman behind O’Neill. But from the center over to Reiff the pass blocking is horrid.

Given the FA class last year, if you want to say cousins contract was holding us back then I guess you could say “instead of signing a guy like Rodger Saffold we signed Kline”. Sure it sounded better but how much better was Saffold? He gave up 6 sacks to kline’s 2. Grantee Kline missed a few games but IMO Kline is a better pass blocker. And the differences in contract are huge. Kline averages 5.1 million per year and saffold averages 11 million per year. Is there really a $6 million difference in their play? No not even close. I’m personally glad spielman doesn’t overpay OL in free agency because they rarely pay off. Saffold doesn’t make this line much better this year (maybe in terms of run blocking) but makes it worse on cousins as a pass blocker.

And that’s the thing, everyone wants that splashy OL signing in free agency. Look at the guys that landed huge contracts this year in free agency! Guys like Billy Turner, Bobby Hart, etc. Legitimate duds. I’ll be all for a splashy signing like Steve Hutchinson who’s a hall of fame caliber guard. Rodger saffold is far from a hall of fame caliber guard.

We need to draft them and draft them well. That’s where we’ve been inconsistent. More so they end up looking pretty promising and play well early on and fall on their face (Kalil, Elflein, etc). O’Neill was an excellent find. Kirk cousins contract isn’t preventing us from drafting an offensive lineman.

So to say his contract takes up resources to build an OL, I don’t agree with. It’s about spielman and Zim putting their mind to it and finding what they need and doing everything in their power to get that. I’m willing to be patient with Bradbury because he’s only a rookie and is an excellent run blocker. But I’m so far done with Reiff and Elflein it’s not even funny. I don’t mind keeping Elflein as a backup guard or center 100%. But reiff I cant stand. And he’s another perfect example of an overpaid free agent offensive lineman. Is he worth what he got? Not at all but that’s the market. Matt Kalil got $55 million for god sakes and we haven’t seen a worse lineman than him in a long time outside of TJ clemmings.

So in the end, I don’t mind the Kline signings of the world if you have a hole at every spot other than RT. He fit the system well, was cheap, and played well enough. He didn’t hurt us I can say that. Bradbury, Elflein and reiffs pass blocking hurt us. I’m shocked cousins didn’t have a ton of fumbles this year because that’s his entire blindside. The rollouts saved us their and it was smart.

But you’ll see in my mock offseason I think I have a good solution at LT by cutting Reiff (which I initially wasn’t going to do) but seeing what was out there changed my mind

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:54 pmMaking it work means not getting completely dominated and embarrassed the last game of the season like the last 3 years. Making it work means stringing together successful seasons which has never been done under Zimmer. Making it work means fixing problems that have plagued this team for decades, like a below average o-line. Making it work means stop settling. Stop patting ourselves on the back for a good try and an above average season. We have 40 playoff losses, more than any other team in the NFL. With zero championships to show for it. We are in the company of the Lions and Browns. Let’s stop making it like winning a championship is some crazy unreasonable request. We’re beyond past due and I’m tired of settling for average.

Mothman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:25 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 1:54 pmMaking it work means not getting completely dominated and embarrassed the last game of the season like the last 3 years. Making it work means stringing together successful seasons which has never been done under Zimmer. Making it work means fixing problems that have plagued this team for decades, like a below average o-line. Making it work means stop settling. Stop patting ourselves on the back for a good try and an above average season. We have 40 playoff losses, more than any other team in the NFL. With zero championships to show for it. We are in the company of the Lions and Browns. Let’s stop making it like winning a championship is some crazy unreasonable request. We’re beyond past due and I’m tired of settling for average.

Well said!

....(Lot of good stuff that I cut out)....
Hindsight has revealed at least one pair of answers that might have been a good choice back then: Lynch and Shanahan.

I know the Vikings went on to have their own 13 win season in 2017 and made it all the way to the conference championship but we saw how that ended and we've seen how the last 2 seasons have ended. I'm not trying to use hindsight to say the Vikings should have hired Lynch and Shanahan in 2017. What I am saying (and always say when asked the questions I mentioned above) is there's always somebody out there. There are always good candidates for these important positions. The Vikings need to identify those candidates, be bold and set themselves on a path to be the next team to build a legitimate, powerful contender in a matter of 3 years or so. It can be done! We don't have to settle for "a good try and an above average season" and quake in fear at the prospect that making bold changes at the top might produce disappointing results.

As Landon said, we're in the company of the Lions and Browns. Let's move into the company of the Patriots, Steelers and 49ers, teams with incredible Super Bowl history and more Super Bowl wins than the Vikings have Super Bowl appearances.

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:07 pmWe all want that zebra. I get it. People are down on Cousins because he ain't the zebra. He can't run left and backwards and sideways and then diagonally throwing a fork ball underhanded to the right while looking left for 12 yards on 3rd and 9 like Mahomes. So he ain't worth the money and we can't build around him. Nonsense.

Being that everyone wants the zebra and the draft is a crap shoot at best, how are we to improve the QB position?

The cap goes up every year, making the 28M a year more meaningless every day. Who could we possibly get better than Cousins?

Dames wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:49 pmYou 2 make some excellent points. I'll vouch for you Jim, I remember you saying it was time to move on back then. I'll admit I thought you were a little nuts at the time, but I think you were seeing things a little more clearly than I was. 3 straight years of getting dominated in the biggest games is enough. That suggests something wrong at the top for sure, and I don't have any confidence that this group will figure it out suddenly either. I want to believe... just can't honestly say I do. We have too good of a history to be lumped in with the Browns and Lions, but until we start winning the whole thing, we'll be nothing more than they are. We can't even get to the SB, let alone win it. That's depressing.

My brother-in-law is a Bears fan. He had the nerve to tell me during the SF game that it's better that we get knocked out, because getting to the SB and losing is worse. Pfft. I doubt it. I was 6 the last time they made it, so can I at least experience getting there once? Jesus, what a stupid team I love.

Mothman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:50 pm

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:07 pmWe all want that zebra. I get it. People are down on Cousins because he ain't the zebra. He can't run left and backwards and sideways and then diagonally throwing a fork ball underhanded to the right while looking left for 12 yards on 3rd and 9 like Mahomes. So he ain't worth the money and we can't build around him. Nonsense.

It's not nonsense. He's a solid player with obvious limitations, several of them in the "intangibles" department. He has strong character but he doesn't bring great confidence, leadership or intangibles to the position. He's not a player you sign to a big contract and build around precisely because he lacks those qualities. Fall behind 24-0 in the playoffs with a player like Mahomes at QB and the team keeps believing they can win and, in fact, may come back to win convincingly, as the Chiefs did in the divisional round. Fall behind like that with Cousins at QB and a team will almost certainly lose and lose big.

That's a very imprecise way to make the point but any experienced fan who's watched those two players for a while should be able to see the very real difference. Statistically, Cousins looks good and he IS a good player. He has solid fundamentals, a good arm, good accuracy (most of the time) and yet, he's not an elite QB. We all know that he's not a game-changer like Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Jackson, Brady (maybe not anymore?). A team can win with him but he sure doesn't seem to me like the kind of QB to give a mega-contract and build around. His history seems to reinforce that.

Being that everyone wants the zebra and the draft is a crap shoot at best, how are we to improve the QB position?

Scout, draft, develop and build elsewhere while finding the right guy. Maybe he emerges early in that process or maybe he's the last piece. Don't reach in free agency or the draft. Most importantly: have a vision for the offense (and team) and look for a QB that fits it.

The cap goes up every year, making the 28M a year more meaningless every day. Who could we possibly get better than Cousins?

That's a variation on the type of question I mentioned earlier today in regard to head coaches and GMs. The specific answer doesn't matter right now. There will be opportunities. Scout, draft, develop, have that vision and be smart, be prepared to seize an opportunity. Mahomes was drafted #10 in 2017 and brought into a program that knew what kind of offense they were running and what kind of QB they wanted. The Vikings selection in that draft was used just 4 picks later, by the Eagles. If I'm not mistaken, the Eagles had it because Spielman misread his team's progress, made a panic-stricken trade for Bradford and squandered a first round pick in the process. Had they held onto that pick, they would have been in a position to identify Mahomes and perhaps move up to get him, to seize an opportunity.

Of course, the Vikings lack the kind of vision Reid has for his offense and consequently, Mahomes probably wouldn't be having the success in MN he's had in KC. Nevertheless, they might have been able to get him (or Watson, 2 picks later). They certainly could have had Wilson in 2012. They could have selected Lamar Jackson in 2018 instead of Mike Hughes. Again, as with a post I made upthread, I'm not using hindsight to say they should have made these moves. I'm pointing out moves were available. There were opportunities. There will be more and it doesn't require a great unicorn to fall from the sky.

It probably does require a new GM.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:35 pmThe only playoff QBs this year who weren't available to the Vikings at some point were Carson Wentz and Josh Allen(assuming the Vikings hadn't stupidly traded away their 2017 first round pick).

Wilson*
Rodgers
Mahomes*
Watson*
Jackson*
Brady
Brees*
Tannehill
Jimmy G.

*Guys who were available in a season we should have been looking for a QB, and who would have made this team better. All but possibly Brees (not sure if Rick was hired before or after Brees was signed) were misses by the current GM.

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 4:13 pm If you’re eating up $30M+ a year you’re not going to have a spectacular everything else. YOU need to be spectacular and Cousins is not that on a consistent basis. Look at the Titans, similar run first old school offense. You only need a guy like Tannehill for that type of offense, put the rest of your resources everywhere else.

It’s opportunity cost. It’s not about Kirk vs whoever else. It’s is he worth that contract in this offense. And I don’t think he is. You can find a QB that can run play action for much cheaper. His contract should be given to a guy that can extend plays, make clutch plays, and carry a team when needed. It’s not worth giving it to a statue pocket passer that’s inconsistent in clutch games. Let him play out the last year of that boat anchor contract then decide. The biggest mistake they can do is extend him or Zimmer right now.

The Vikings need to pick an identity and stick with it. If this is a run first, strong defense strategy then you simply don’t pay a QB that type of money unless he’s a guy like Wilson who can make do with a shoddy o-line.

S197 wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:14 pm
Kline was a good signing although I don’t know if that’s because everyone around him is so bad that it makes us focus on him less. He and O’Neill are likely the two we need to build around. Bradbury as well but he definitely needs to improve his strength this offseason.

You’re talking about a few different things in this post so I’ll try to address them separately. Money or cap in this case is fungible. Meaning you don’t have to put it towards OL if the OL market isn’t there but it’s going to take away from someone. Cousins may mean we can’t sign Ant Harris or maybe Alexander. Or maybe a promising FA elsewhere. This is why I say we need to find our identity. If it’s ball control and defense, then put your resources there. Pay your QB if your team runs through an explosive offense like the Chiefs. I don’t pay if my strategy is closer to the 49ers who could’ve won yesterday with Ponder.

The other issue is identification of talent, an area Spielman has really struggled with on OL. Nothing has really worked. FA signings like Reiff and Remmers to draft picks like Clemmings, Beavers, and Elflein. So again, if we’re a team that’s run focused and he can’t get it done, they need to move on from him. Seattle had a laughing stock of a line and they turned into a dominant run blocking line pretty quickly. Meanwhile we continue to be stuck in reverse. So we know it can be done, we see it around the league.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:35 pm

Mothman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 3:50 pm

It's not nonsense. He's a solid player with obvious limitations, several of them in the "intangibles" department. He has strong character but he doesn't bring great confidence, leadership or intangibles to the position. He's not a player you sign to a big contract and build around precisely because he lacks those qualities. Fall behind 24-0 in the playoffs with a player like Mahomes at QB and the team keeps believing they can win and, in fact, may come back to win convincingly, as the Chiefs did in the divisional round. Fall behind like that with Cousins at QB and a team will almost certainly lose and lose big.

That's a very imprecise way to make the point but any experienced fan who's watched those two players for a while should be able to see the very real difference. Statistically, Cousins looks good and he IS a good player. He has solid fundamentals, a good arm, good accuracy (most of the time) and yet, he's not an elite QB. We all know that he's not a game-changer like Mahomes, Wilson, Rodgers, Brees, Jackson, Brady (maybe not anymore?). A team can win with him but he sure doesn't seem to me like the kind of QB to give a mega-contract and build around. His history seems to reinforce that.



Scout, draft, develop and build elsewhere while finding the right guy. Maybe he emerges early in that process or maybe he's the last piece. Don't reach in free agency or the draft. Most importantly: have a vision for the offense (and team) and look for a QB that fits it.



That's a variation on the type of question I mentioned earlier today in regard to head coaches and GMs. The specific answer doesn't matter right now. There will be opportunities. Scout, draft, develop, have that vision and be smart, be prepared to seize an opportunity. Mahomes was drafted #10 in 2017 and brought into a program that knew what kind of offense they were running and what kind of QB they wanted. The Vikings selection in that draft was used just 4 picks later, by the Eagles. If I'm not mistaken, the Eagles had it because Spielman misread his team's progress, made a panic-stricken trade for Bradford and squandered a first round pick in the process. Had they held onto that pick, they would have been in a position to identify Mahomes and perhaps move up to get him, to seize an opportunity.

Of course, the Vikings lack the kind of vision Reid has for his offense and consequently, Mahomes probably wouldn't be having the success in MN he's had in KC. Nevertheless, they might have been able to get him (or Watson, 2 picks later). They certainly could have had Wilson in 2012. They could have selected Lamar Jackson in 2018 instead of Mike Hughes. Again, as with a post I made upthread, I'm not using hindsight to say they should have made these moves. I'm pointing out moves were available. There were opportunities. There will be more and it doesn't require a great unicorn to fall from the sky.

It probably does require a new GM.

In regards to finding that zebra.

The only playoff QBs this year who weren't available to the Vikings at some point were Carson Wentz and Josh Allen(assuming the Vikings hadn't stupidly traded away their 2017 first round pick).

Wilson*
Rodgers
Mahomes*
Watson*
Jackson*
Brady
Brees*
Tannehill
Jimmy G.


*Guys who were available in a season we should have been looking for a QB, and who would have made this team better. All but possibly Brees (not sure if Rick was hired before or after Brees was signed) were misses by the current GM.

This is isn't as impossible as some make it out to be...unless your GM is Rick Spielman.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:08 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:35 pm
In regards to finding that zebra.

The only playoff QBs this year who weren't available to the Vikings at some point were Carson Wentz and Josh Allen(assuming the Vikings hadn't stupidly traded away their 2017 first round pick).

Wilson*
Rodgers
Mahomes*
Watson*
Jackson*
Brady
Brees*
Tannehill
Jimmy G.


*Guys who were available in a season we should have been looking for a QB, and who would have made this team better. All but possibly Brees (not sure if Rick was hired before or after Brees was signed) were misses by the current GM.

This is isn't as impossible as some make it out to be...unless your GM is Rick Spielman.

Good to see the list but why is tannehill in there? How would he have made this team better? Nobody would have even mentioned him if it wasn’t for this season when he had by far the best RB in the nfl. Sure the other ones are good but tannehill has no right to be on that list. And yeah some of those QBs were drafted when spielman wasn’t even here

Mothman wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:39 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 9:08 pm

Good to see the list but why is tannehill in there? How would he have made this team better? Nobody would have even mentioned him if it wasn’t for this season when he had by far the best RB in the nfl. Sure the other ones are good but tannehill has no right to be on that list. And yeah some of those QBs were drafted when spielman wasn’t even here

You breezed right past the point. He explained why Tannehill is on the list: he's a playoff QB this year was available to the Vikings at some point.

A few of those QBs were drafted when Spielman wasn't here but they still underscore the problem. The Vikings passed on 3 generational talents at QB. So did almost everybody else, of course, but part of the Vikes problem in finding a great QB is that they don't look particularly hard. That's been especially true in the Spielman era. When they had Culpepper, they could be forgiven for thinking they might have had their guy (although they still should have been alert to excellent QB prospects since, as Culpepper's career illustrates, a promising talent's fate can change on one play).

The Vikings approach since Culpepper has been to draft a QB when the issue is forced on them (Jackson, Ponder, Bridgewater) but otherwise to take late round or post-draft flyers on quarterbacks and try to solve the problem in free agency (and let's face it, a player like Brees rarely comes along in free agency and when he did, Childress and the Vikings didn't even try to get him ). For the most part that hasn't worked well. It certainly hasn't led to stability at the position.

CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:38 pmBrees has had a great career but don't forget he was injured. I don't blame us for skipping. I remember I was glad we skipped.