Vikings Message Board.Com

Boon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:48 pm Just wait til they actually fire zimmer, a coach with a winning record and a few playoff wins, and bring in a new coach who completely sucks and we go back into complete suck mode. I hope you guys get what you ask for. Just keep in mind, this team will never win #### regardless of who the damn coach/gm is until they land a franchise quarterback. Period.

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 pm
If you think Spielman is so good then he should be head coach then

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:44 pmThe list of talent is also a moving goalpost. Pretty sure Mike Hughes made the talent list until he didn’t. And Samia was on the Lynch/potential list, until he wasn’t. Same with Watts and Hercules.

Rick always “wins” the draft on paper with his 10-15 picks. But when it comes to fielding a team, it’s always the same issues year after year.

cogitator wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:53 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 pm
If you think Spielman is so good then he should be head coach then

Different skills and strengths required. It's like saying - if you think Cousins is so good, he should be playing wide receiver.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:04 pmCompletely disagree. Having good drafts means you’re bringing in talent for your coach to work with.

I don’t feel like Spielman would be incapable of drafting a QB this year if he was our GM still. I want a GM that can bring in talent and I can bet money if you look, Spielman probably has a top 10 hit rate on draft picks the past 6 years compared to other GMs.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:29 pm

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 2:46 pm Vikings got embarrassed to the winless Falcons at home which is similar getting embarrassed to the Bills at home 2 years ago which is pathetic! Wilf need to fire Speilman, Zimmer, and the entire coaching staff and start all over!

I’m guessing if Zim is fired Spielman is too but I think it’s stupid to fire Spielman.

Spielman has brought in the talent. It’s zims job to coach them.

Justin Jefferson has 537 yards in practically 4 games. He might be top 5 by the end of the week. Yet Zim was hardly playing him the first two weeks.

Ezra Cleveland played decent. Much better than Samia IMO. Yet he just saw the field for the first time week 6. When you continued to start not only the worst guard in football but the worst overall player in the nfl according to PFF.

He is playing gladney and dantzler by default. Hell Harrison hand even looked good today and also just saw the field this week.

James lynch played in the final two minutes of this game. Our DTs prior to this game, have played 568 snaps (Johnson, Stephen, Mata’afa and watts) and they have ZERO sacks. James lynch played for 9 snaps last week and gets a sack against Wilson no less. And none of those DTs got a sack today so that stat is even more alarming now. But let’s continue to keep James lynch on the bench.

....Spielman is bringing the talent in. Zim is drastically failing to use it. I think Spielman is a good GM. I’ve always like Zim but he is just way too set in his ways, way too old school, doesn’t adapt with the times, fails to put his best players in the game, way too conservative, etc.

I’m just done with Zim. I love the guy but I’m sick of watching this. I’m sick of watching well below average players consistently play over players screaming with potential

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:53 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:44 pmThe list of talent is also a moving goalpost. Pretty sure Mike Hughes made the talent list until he didn’t. And Samia was on the Lynch/potential list, until he wasn’t. Same with Watts and Hercules.

Rick always “wins” the draft on paper with his 10-15 picks. But when it comes to fielding a team, it’s always the same issues year after year.

Exactly.

There's nothing extraordinary or outstanding about the job Spielman's done in the draft. He's certainly found his share of talent but a lot of that talent was pretty easy to spot and he's missed on some pretty important picks. More importantly, he doesn't seem to learn from roster-building mistakes and he doesn't take a sufficiently logical, holistic approach to team-building. His teams reflect that and pay for the shortcomings he fails to address again and again.

AllisonW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:29 pm

I’m guessing if Zim is fired Spielman is too but I think it’s stupid to fire Spielman.

Spielman has brought in the talent. It’s zims job to coach them.

Justin Jefferson has 537 yards in practically 4 games. He might be top 5 by the end of the week. Yet Zim was hardly playing him the first two weeks.

Ezra Cleveland played decent. Much better than Samia IMO. Yet he just saw the field for the first time week 6. When you continued to start not only the worst guard in football but the worst overall player in the nfl according to PFF.

He is playing gladney and dantzler by default. Hell Harrison hand even looked good today and also just saw the field this week.

James lynch played in the final two minutes of this game. Our DTs prior to this game, have played 568 snaps (Johnson, Stephen, Mata’afa and watts) and they have ZERO sacks. James lynch played for 9 snaps last week and gets a sack against Wilson no less. And none of those DTs got a sack today so that stat is even more alarming now. But let’s continue to keep James lynch on the bench.

....Spielman is bringing the talent in. Zim is drastically failing to use it. I think Spielman is a good GM. I’ve always like Zim but he is just way too set in his ways, way too old school, doesn’t adapt with the times, fails to put his best players in the game, way too conservative, etc.

I’m just done with Zim. I love the guy but I’m sick of watching this. I’m sick of watching well below average players consistently play over players screaming with potential

Spielman has definitely brought in talent. He oversaw drafting Adrian Peterson and Sidney Rice in 2007; Percy Harvin and Phil Loadholt in 2009, and Kyle Rudolph in 2011. When he became GM he brought in Harrison Smith and Blair Walsh in 2012; Sharrif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes, and Cordarrelle Patterson in 2013; Teddy Bridgewater, Anthony Barr, Jerick McKinnon, Shamar Stephen in 2014. He brought in Zimmer in 2014 who along with Norv Turner who helped draft Trae Waynes who led the Vikings in special teams tackles in 2015, Everson Griffen, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter and Stefon Diggs.

With that said, he hasn't been able to find a franchise quarterback of the future. If anything, he brought in average (Ponder) to above average QB's (Bridgewater, Cousins) but defensive minded Zimmer somehow didn't give them the time/attention they needed. Defense has been the Vikings identity as a franchise but that has to change. Zimmer alluded to the fact that he sees this now but at this point it's too little too late to save 2020, IMO. Today's loss hopefully is a wakeup call to the Wilfs that the Vikings have to change their identity and fast if we want to be relevant. That means Zimmer and Kubiak have to go, and if Zimmer goes, unfortunately Spielman does too.

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:32 pm

AllisonW wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:22 pm

Spielman has definitely brought in talent. He oversaw drafting Adrian Peterson and Sidney Rice in 2007; Percy Harvin and Phil Loadholt in 2009, and Kyle Rudolph in 2011. When he became GM he brought in Harrison Smith and Blair Walsh in 2012; Sharrif Floyd, Xavier Rhodes, and Cordarrelle Patterson in 2013; Teddy Bridgewater, Anthony Barr, Jerick McKinnon, Shamar Stephen in 2014. He brought in Zimmer in 2014 who along with Norv Turner who helped draft Trae Waynes who led the Vikings in special teams tackles in 2015, Everson Griffen, Eric Kendricks, Danielle Hunter and Stefon Diggs.

With that said, he hasn't been able to find a franchise quarterback of the future. If anything, he brought in average (Ponder) to above average QB's (Bridgewater, Cousins) but defensive minded Zimmer somehow didn't give them the time/attention they needed. Defense has been the Vikings identity as a franchise but that has to change. Zimmer alluded to the fact that he sees this now but at this point it's too little too late to save 2020, IMO. Today's loss hopefully is a wakeup call to the Wilfs that the Vikings have to change their identity and fast if we want to be relevant. That means Zimmer and Kubiak have to go, and if Zimmer goes, unfortunately Spielman does too.

You forgot the offensive line, Spielman never had a good offensive line when he is here and that is unexcusable

Boon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:10 pm

S197 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:57 pm

The problem is Zimmer adds no value. He’s a defensive minded coach with a terrible defense. Despite a plethora of 1st and 2nd round picks.

He has yet to take the next step, which is to stop being a glorified DC and start being a HC. His time management and decision making is still poor. He’s often badly out coached in key games. His philosophy on the game is antiquated and overly conservative. He’s basically Marv Lewis.

Look at his overall defensive rankings since he's taken over. The year he took over the vikings literally had the worst scoring defense in the entire league. They went from 32nd to 11th, and since he has fielded a top 10 defense in scoring every year except this one.

Look, lets be realists, there isnt any level of preseason or coaching thats gonna help the corners we have. Zimmer had a decent secondary and it was gutted to basically extend this #### quarterback. Rookies or not, dantzler and gladney look completely lost and i think its systemic. I honestly believe this is chris cook and benny sapp all over again. And hughes is trash . This is a situation spielman created, not zimmer

RandyMoss84 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:45 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:04 pm

Completely disagree. Having good drafts means you’re bringing in talent for your coach to work with. These guys are showing they can play when they have the opportunity. Especially this years draft class. I haven’t seen a disappointing draft pick yet. Again, his job is to get the talent in, zimmers job is to coach the players and utilize these players to the best of his ability. He is NOT doing that.

You bring up the QB, guard and I’ll even add in 3 tech. However, outside of that, we’ve been pretty strong at all other positions. Average at some but for the most part, pretty good across the board. How many times have you heard analysts say “the Vikings have one of the more talented rosters in the nfl? I heard it quite often for the last 4-5 years.

I’m not going harp on someone that does a good job finding talent via the draft. Has he sucked at finding a guard, yeah 100%, although who knows this year because Zim practically refused to play Cleveland until he was forced to so we have no idea about Cleveland yet. But yeah he deserves criticism there. QB, sure we can say the ponder experiment was a failure, the Teddy pick was no different than a pick like Lamar Jackson. Both taken at the same spot in the draft no less. I just think Teddy was a game manager at best. Cousins probably came in a year too late because that’s when the defense started declining, getting older and eventually becoming depleted. And no not due to cousins contract. Those guys became past their prime (Rhodes and Joseph, Waynes got money he didn’t deserve, etc).

I don’t feel like Spielman would be incapable of drafting a QB this year if he was our GM still. I want a GM that can bring in talent and I can bet money if you look, Spielman probably has a top 10 hit rate on draft picks the past 6 years compared to other GMs.

My entire point with this is I don’t think it’s Spielman that’s the problem. Spielman has been part of 2 NFC championships. I don’t think he “can’t” build a SB roster. I just think Zim is beyond his time. It’s also tough to gauge because this team is somewhat depleted right now. Not necessarily loaded with injuries it’s just that losing a guy like hunter, who I’ve said before isn’t just the best defensive but I think arguably the best player on this entire team, losing Pierce who I thought was an excellent signing to covid is a massive hit. Losing Barr hurts whether you’re a fan of him or not. And then zimmers inability to recognize who his best players are and utilizing them.

I don’t know, I just feel like firing Spielman isn’t the answer for this team. I truly believe that

If you think Spielman is so good then he should be head coach then

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:27 pm

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:53 pm

Exactly.

There's nothing extraordinary or outstanding about the job Spielman's done in the draft. He's certainly found his share of talent but a lot of that talent was pretty easy to spot and he's missed on some pretty important picks. More importantly, he doesn't seem to learn from roster-building mistakes and he doesn't take a sufficiently logical, holistic approach to team-building. His teams reflect that and pay for the shortcomings he fails to address again and again.

The talent was pretty easy to spot?? Come on Jim. That’s not even a fair statement. Laquon Treadwell was the best WR in college football and he didn’t pan out. I would say talent wise, that was easy to spot but it didn’t work out. Matt Kalil was hands down the best tackle in college football, that didn’t pan out. That’s why players are called busts. Because they have a lot of talent and it never translates to the nfl. No pick is a sure thing. Maybe talent could be “easy to spot” but it means nothing until they show that talent in the nfl. Then you have Danielle hunter who showed very little talent in the nfl but is arguably one of the best, if not the best DE in the league when you look at all phases of his game.

Criticize Spielman all you want, but to shy away from giving him credit for the talent he brought in because you think it was “easy to spot” is a pretty poor attempt at trying to say he’s the problem.

Mothman wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:20 pm Agreed but they've needed to do that for a while now.

I hope the Vikes come out of the bye week, go 0-3 and continue this trash heap of a season with 3 straight losses against division opponents. This season needs to be the kind of train wreck that results in a complete overhaul.

2020 presented a perfect opportunity for the Wilfs to make significant changes to the team and instead they doubled down on Spielman, Zimmer, Cousins and irrelevance.

Boon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:48 pm Just wait til they actually fire zimmer, a coach with a winning record and a few playoff wins, and bring in a new coach who completely sucks and we go back into complete suck mode. I hope you guys get what you ask for. Just keep in mind, this team will never win #### regardless of who the damn coach/gm is until they land a franchise quarterback. Period.

With a halfway decent qb this is a completely different season. Kirk is a turnover machine who has 0 ability to adjust to anything. And it just so happens they will win just enough to not land the #1 pick because the jets are so freaking bad. So they need to either trade an absurd amount of picks to the jets or settle for fields. Either way they need to keep drafting 1st rd qb's until one sticks. Tired of this ####. Its not zimmers #### fault cousins is garbage , spielman was the one who extended him