Vikings Message Board.Com

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:04 pm
Maybe KC and the Saints believe they can hold their rosters together and compete for a Superbowl next year.

Do you think the Vikings believe they were ready to compete for a Superbowl next year with their season-ending roster? I suggest that the moves made thus far say no, and if that is their mindset, then I won't be surprised if further significant moves are made this offseason in an effort to rebuild the roster.

That may be true, but players don't play for free. To paraphrase the Clint Eastwood character near the end of "Unforgiven" - "Like's got nothin' to do with it...". That's before he blows away the corrupt sheriff that killed his friend.

In the end, Harris and Cook (and all players) only have a certain amount of time to play at the pro level, and they need to make all the money they can. It is exceedingly rare for players to take less than they could make elsewhere. Those who do take less exist, sure, but it won't be markedly less.

The Vikings have had the star RB already several times in their history. Still no Superbowl win, and no Superbowl appearance even since the first half of the 70's.

Plus, do they need the high power RB if they have a great offensive line? Did San Fran have a star RB last year? How many teams that have won the Superbowl or even gotten to the Superbowl did so on the strength of a star RB?

I'm not saying having a star RB is a bad thing. Far from it. If you can get one, it won't hurt. But RB's tend to have short shelf lives (has Cook even played a full season yet?), and tying up a bunch of money in that position in particular doesn't seem to be the wisest move to me.

How much money should be tied up in the safety position? How much of the cap do you want to spend for the secondary overall, and how much do you want to invest in the defensive line?

Look at league history and what types of teams have made and won Superbowls. Where do they tend to be strong? Where are they investing their limited dollars?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but my guess is few of the more successful teams have two highly-paid safeties at the same time. My guess is most of them have more invested up front, either in their front fours or front sevens, and if they do have highly paid secondary players, the top two would be a combo of a corner and a safety or even two corners.

Whether a given trade makes sense depends on what the team gets in exchange. If the compensation for a given player is good enough, Spielman would be foolish not to make the trade. For a safety like Harris who, if he plays under the franchise tag, would be on a one year deal, a 2nd rounder, especially a top half of the 2 round, would be enough for me to make the deal.

For Cook I'm not sure. On a potential contribution basis (i.e. Cook stays effective and healthy all year), he's worth at least a 1st. On an actual basis given his injury history and length of time in the league, I might do the deal for a 2nd rounder in the top 10 picks of the 2nd, or a first half of the 3rd and a 2nd.

But an offer like that will never come. Every sim mock I've done and every other mock I've seen has the RBs in this year's draft slipping. If the Vikings were to ship Cook for an extra 2nd, they could easily use that to get a talented replacement with a lot less wear on the tires, but the same logic suggests a team that needs a talented runner would probably just hold on to their ammunition and spend it on said RB.

Husker Vike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:20 pm Agree on not paying that much for Rudolph, But all this talk about trading Cook is crazy,Our offense is built around him and there are very few backs who have Cook's skill set. His vision and burst can't be found as easily as many of you think.

Dakotavike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:23 pm Most of you are much smarter than me with the actual X's and O's of football. But I think what some on this forum are missing is that it's not just Cook's talent (which of course is undeniable), it's also his fit in this offense. Not all RB's are created equal. I would agree that the vast majority of RB's in this league (even the really good ones) are pretty close to interchangeable and shouldn't be paid huge contracts. But Cook is unique in that he's one of the few that can do it all and is tailor-made for this scheme. Outside of McCaffrey and possibly Kamara I can't think of, off the top of my head, many others that can do what he does. So, for me, as long as we're running this offense the last thing I want to do is lose Cook. Do I want to pay him 'highest RB in the league' money? No, absolutely not. But I agree with PHP, I don't think we'll have to. So if we can find a way to extend him without completely breaking the bank I'm all for it.

Dakotavike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:23 pm Most of you are much smarter than me with the actual X's and O's of football. But I think what some on this forum are missing is that it's not just Cook's talent (which of course is undeniable), it's also his fit in this offense. Not all RB's are created equal. I would agree that the vast majority of RB's in this league (even the really good ones) are pretty close to interchangeable and shouldn't be paid huge contracts. But Cook is unique in that he's one of the few that can do it all and is tailor-made for this scheme. Outside of McCaffrey and possibly Kamara I can't think of, off the top of my head, many others that can do what he does. So, for me, as long as we're running this offense the last thing I want to do is lose Cook. Do I want to pay him 'highest RB in the league' money? No, absolutely not. But I agree with PHP, I don't think we'll have to. So if we can find a way to extend him without completely breaking the bank I'm all for it.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:33 pm

VikingLord wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:04 pm
Maybe KC and the Saints believe they can hold their rosters together and compete for a Superbowl next year.

Do you think the Vikings believe they were ready to compete for a Superbowl next year with their season-ending roster? I suggest that the moves made thus far say no, and if that is their mindset, then I won't be surprised if further significant moves are made this offseason in an effort to rebuild the roster.

They are clearly making an effort to regroup in the draft given the 12 draft picks. Like I said below, KC and New Orleans also have the least amount of draft picks with 5. The one luxury we have is we can let guys walk and replace via the draft. But holy cow, how many guys do you want to replace in the draft? Again, fans are bickering that we are letting guys go, not signing anyone, trading diggs, but when the time comes for two top players on this team, we don’t wanna pay them? I feel like some fans are in the mindset of “ok we are rebuilding, let’s get rid of the farm and start fresh”. That couldn’t be further from the truth. This team is not rebuilding they are reloading. They let go weaknesses and are going to retool those positions. They are keeping their strengths.

I guess what I don’t understand is: let’s just say the Vikings trade both cook and Harris. Players in the top 5 at their position in the entire nfl. They get a second round pick for both. So what are we going to do? Take those second round picks and go draft and RB and a safety all over again? So then we have to dive into the draft and pick two unknowns when we had two sure things we let walk. All to save some money? Like it seems like all of the sudden fans want to penny pinch when it comes to paying our better players. The saying if it’s not broke don’t fix it?? The RB and safety position is far from broke. Why screw with it? Trading diggs was a different story because he was a diva that wanted out. That’s not cook and Harris.

That may be true, but players don't play for free. To paraphrase the Clint Eastwood character near the end of "Unforgiven" - "Like's got nothin' to do with it...". That's before he blows away the corrupt sheriff that killed his friend.

In the end, Harris and Cook (and all players) only have a certain amount of time to play at the pro level, and they need to make all the money they can. It is exceedingly rare for players to take less than they could make elsewhere. Those who do take less exist, sure, but it won't be markedly less.

I disagree. Cousins for example, was offered $90 million guaranteed from the jets compared to our $84 million and he chose the Vikings. Anthony Barr practically had a contract signed for more money, but chose to come back to the Vikings. If they want to be here, they are going to find a way to stay. Cook and Harris are both all about this team. They don’t care about their stat line like diggs. They want to be a part of something special and bring a SB here. So it’s not rare to take less than they could make elsewhere. If someone was offering Harris $14 million and we offered $7, yeah he’s not saying. But if it’s within a few million, Harris and/or cook choose Minnesota any day of the week IMO

The Vikings have had the star RB already several times in their history. Still no Superbowl win, and no Superbowl appearance even since the first half of the 70's.

Plus, do they need the high power RB if they have a great offensive line? Did San Fran have a star RB last year? How many teams that have won the Superbowl or even gotten to the Superbowl did so on the strength of a star RB?

I'm not saying having a star RB is a bad thing. Far from it. If you can get one, it won't hurt. But RB's tend to have short shelf lives (has Cook even played a full season yet?), and tying up a bunch of money in that position in particular doesn't seem to be the wisest move to me.

Let’s be honest, they were a bad throw by Brett favre away from getting to the SB and probably winning it. They were a Gary Anderson miss away from winning another. Robert smith and AP would probably both have a ring right now if it wasn’t for outside factors screwing up. I think that argument is more of a “luck of the draw” argument than anything.

How much money should be tied up in the safety position? How much of the cap do you want to spend for the secondary overall, and how much do you want to invest in the defensive line?

Look at league history and what types of teams have made and won Superbowls. Where do they tend to be strong? Where are they investing their limited dollars?

I honestly don't know the answer to that question, but my guess is few of the more successful teams have two highly-paid safeties at the same time. My guess is most of them have more invested up front, either in their front fours or front sevens, and if they do have highly paid secondary players, the top two would be a combo of a corner and a safety or even two corners.

We were 4th in the nfl last year in defensive line investment. I would have to say near #1 overall in cap dollars for the entire front 7. We’ve definitely made our investment there. Especially given most of the front 7 we drafted. Outside of linval they were all a draft pick of ours.

As for the OL, it’s near bare bones right now. The only 2 viable OL we have are O’Neill and maybe Bradbury. One of them is entering his 3rd year, the other his 2nd. If we continue to draft right, there is our investment. Investment in a certain position group isn’t all about the money. You have to factor in stud players on a rookie contract still.

If we keep drafting right on the OL, we don’t need big money for them for another 3-4 years down the road.

Whether a given trade makes sense depends on what the team gets in exchange. If the compensation for a given player is good enough, Spielman would be foolish not to make the trade. For a safety like Harris who, if he plays under the franchise tag, would be on a one year deal, a 2nd rounder, especially a top half of the 2 round, would be enough for me to make the deal.

For Cook I'm not sure. On a potential contribution basis (i.e. Cook stays effective and healthy all year), he's worth at least a 1st. On an actual basis given his injury history and length of time in the league, I might do the deal for a 2nd rounder in the top 10 picks of the 2nd, or a first half of the 3rd and a 2nd.

But an offer like that will never come. Every sim mock I've done and every other mock I've seen has the RBs in this year's draft slipping. If the Vikings were to ship Cook for an extra 2nd, they could easily use that to get a talented replacement with a lot less wear on the tires, but the same logic suggests a team that needs a talented runner would probably just hold on to their ammunition and spend it on said RB.

There is literally zero chance I would ever trade dalvin cook for a top half of the 3rd round pick. Shame on spielman if he ever did that too. We traded up in the 2nd round to draft him, he explodes this year, and we trade him away for an early 3rd? That would have me scratching my head for weeks.

Harris on the other hand, it would definitely have to be an early second or more. But again, I’m not opposed to ever trading anyone IF the deal is legit. Diggs is a stud but to get the compensation we did, I’d make the deal. Harris for an early 2nd, maybe. Cook for a 3rd, not the slightest chance

And if we trade cook, get replacement that has “a lot less wear on the tires”? What wear does dalvin cook have? Not very much. But this is what I said earlier, if we refuse to pay someone like dalvin cook, then we might as well just draft a new RB every 4 years and let the 3-4 year starter from the years before walk every time. Dalvin cook makes this offense go in every aspect. That carries 10 times more value that what some think.

Either way, good discussion, we all make good points

fiestavike wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:21 am I don't think anybody is disparaging Cook. The first question is how much of your cap you want to tie up with RB. The second question is, assuming that isn't enough to get him signed, and he isn't going to be a Viking NEXT season, how do you get the best return on investment?

If you are willing to give him 13-15 million a year, you can keep him. If you aren't he is probably gone after this season EITHER WAY.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:22 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:33 pm

They are clearly making an effort to regroup in the draft given the 12 draft picks. Like I said below, KC and New Orleans also have the least amount of draft picks with 5. The one luxury we have is we can let guys walk and replace via the draft. But holy cow, how many guys do you want to replace in the draft? Again, fans are bickering that we are letting guys go, not signing anyone, trading diggs, but when the time comes for two top players on this team, we don’t wanna pay them? I feel like some fans are in the mindset of “ok we are rebuilding, let’s get rid of the farm and start fresh”. That couldn’t be further from the truth. This team is not rebuilding they are reloading. They let go weaknesses and are going to retool those positions. They are keeping their strengths.

I guess what I don’t understand is: let’s just say the Vikings trade both cook and Harris. Players in the top 5 at their position in the entire nfl. They get a second round pick for both. So what are we going to do? Take those second round picks and go draft and RB and a safety all over again? So then we have to dive into the draft and pick two unknowns when we had two sure things we let walk. All to save some money? Like it seems like all of the sudden fans want to penny pinch when it comes to paying our better players. The saying if it’s not broke don’t fix it?? The RB and safety position is far from broke. Why screw with it? Trading diggs was a different story because he was a diva that wanted out. That’s not cook and Harris.



I disagree. Cousins for example, was offered $90 million guaranteed from the jets compared to our $84 million and he chose the Vikings. Anthony Barr practically had a contract signed for more money, but chose to come back to the Vikings. If they want to be here, they are going to find a way to stay. Cook and Harris are both all about this team. They don’t care about their stat line like diggs. They want to be a part of something special and bring a SB here. So it’s not rare to take less than they could make elsewhere. If someone was offering Harris $14 million and we offered $7, yeah he’s not saying. But if it’s within a few million, Harris and/or cook choose Minnesota any day of the week IMO



Let’s be honest, they were a bad throw by Brett favre away from getting to the SB and probably winning it. They were a Gary Anderson miss away from winning another. Robert smith and AP would probably both have a ring right now if it wasn’t for outside factors screwing up. I think that argument is more of a “luck of the draw” argument than anything.



We were 4th in the nfl last year in defensive line investment. I would have to say near #1 overall in cap dollars for the entire front 7. We’ve definitely made our investment there. Especially given most of the front 7 we drafted. Outside of linval they were all a draft pick of ours.

As for the OL, it’s near bare bones right now. The only 2 viable OL we have are O’Neill and maybe Bradbury. One of them is entering his 3rd year, the other his 2nd. If we continue to draft right, there is our investment. Investment in a certain position group isn’t all about the money. You have to factor in stud players on a rookie contract still.

If we keep drafting right on the OL, we don’t need big money for them for another 3-4 years down the road.



There is literally zero chance I would ever trade dalvin cook for a top half of the 3rd round pick. Shame on spielman if he ever did that too. We traded up in the 2nd round to draft him, he explodes this year, and we trade him away for an early 3rd? That would have me scratching my head for weeks.

Harris on the other hand, it would definitely have to be an early second or more. But again, I’m not opposed to ever trading anyone IF the deal is legit. Diggs is a stud but to get the compensation we did, I’d make the deal. Harris for an early 2nd, maybe. Cook for a 3rd, not the slightest chance

And if we trade cook, get replacement that has “a lot less wear on the tires”? What wear does dalvin cook have? Not very much. But this is what I said earlier, if we refuse to pay someone like dalvin cook, then we might as well just draft a new RB every 4 years and let the 3-4 year starter from the years before walk every time. Dalvin cook makes this offense go in every aspect. That carries 10 times more value that what some think.

Either way, good discussion, we all make good points

Reiff is a quite viable OL. I'm good with the rest of your post.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:40 pm

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:22 pm
Reiff is a quite viable OL. I'm good with the rest of your post.

Yeah That’s my fault, I worded that wrong. I’m saying more on the end of “building blocks” being O’Neill and Bradbury. Yeah Reiff is a viable lineman but not a building block. Good catch thanks!

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:49 pm I honestly am on the fence with him. I'm nervous about his injury history. Other than that I would say it's a slam dunk no brainer to give him close to what he wants contractually and beef up the oline in this draft. He is special with an average offensive line imagine what he would do with studs... 2,000 yards wouldn't be out of the question. I wonder if he's be opposed to a performance based contract with bonuses for games played etc.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:09 pm

Maelstrom88 wrote: ↑Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:49 pm I honestly am on the fence with him. I'm nervous about his injury history. Other than that I would say it's a slam dunk no brainer to give him close to what he wants contractually and beef up the oline in this draft. He is special with an average offensive line imagine what he would do with studs... 2,000 yards wouldn't be out of the question. I wonder if he's be opposed to a performance based contract with bonuses for games played etc.

He very well could be. All I know is, his demeanor and how he speaks of this team and organization, he REALLY wants to be here. And not only that but he wants a super bowl more than anything.

Random side story:

I mean I’m a huge dalvin cook (the person) fan as well. When I was in buffalo this preseason in the Vikings hotel, my step son Finley was waiting to see cook. He walked into the hotel with a boatload of players as they came back from dinner. Rhodes, griffen, Barr, kendricks, Waynes, etc were all together. When cook saw Finley point at him from a distance, he gave Finn a huge smile and a thumbs up and came right over to him and signed his ball. Finn didn’t even have to ask. He asked him his name, how he was doing, etc. That takes a special person if you ask me.

Not a guy like diggs that refused to come downstairs unless there were 8 security guards surrounding him. Like what makes you so special compared to everyone else? There are superstars and big names such as cook, Hunter, kendricks, cousins, Barr, linval, Harry, Rudy, etc walking around and you don’t see a single security guard. All Finn wanted to see was cousins, cook, diggs and Thielen (who didn’t travel that game). We saw everyone except diggs by morning. Diggs was NEVER with the rest of his teammates. I swear every player on the entire roster was in that lobby multiple times throughout the night. Sometimes in large groups and sometimes small. Not once was diggs ever with them. He came down the following morning by himself with 2 guards at the top of the escalator and 2 at the bottom. Finley sprinted up towards him to askhim for his autograph (mind you we were literally the only Vikings fans/people in the lobby). The security guard stuck his arm out to block my 6 year old step son and said no autographs. He looked at Finn, literally made eye contact and didn’t even smile and kept walking over to the Starbucks in the lobby. Never in my life have I seen a kid so bummed. Never cried, just every bit of excitement he had when he saw him was instantly drained out of him. There was a random guy sitting near us that saw the whole thing and saw Finns body language. He looked at me and whispered “what a fuc#ing joke, these kids look at these guys like they are heroes and that’s how they act”. When diggs came back through from getting a coffee, I had to yell to him saying “diggs any way you could just sign his ball quick?”. He said “yeah I can do it quick“ with this annoyed monotoned voice and ended up signing the ball as the security guard said “it’s gotta be quick”. This is another reason I have no respect for diggs. The antics on the field, off the field, the need for security on the road when not a single player had it, the selfishness, etc. It needs to be all about him. It’s all a show to him. Playing catch before the game with kids, etc. He just wants the cameras to be on him at all times. When I think deep down, he’s an arrogant as#hole looking for the fame.

Cook on the other hand, not one bit. A truly humble person. Same with cousins, Barr, Hunter, linval, Kendricks, Rudy, a lot of those guys. Thielen as well who we never met. Those are the types of players I enjoy watching play this game. Not only are they good players but even better people. Diggs is not one of those people and won’t ever will be. But he will always put on the show like he is one of those guys.

Sorry for the random story/rant. I know these aren’t great reasons to want a player on or off this team but I definitely think it’s a small factor and should always be slightly considered

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:50 pm

Dakotavike wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:23 pm Most of you are much smarter than me with the actual X's and O's of football. But I think what some on this forum are missing is that it's not just Cook's talent (which of course is undeniable), it's also his fit in this offense. Not all RB's are created equal. I would agree that the vast majority of RB's in this league (even the really good ones) are pretty close to interchangeable and shouldn't be paid huge contracts. But Cook is unique in that he's one of the few that can do it all and is tailor-made for this scheme. Outside of McCaffrey and possibly Kamara I can't think of, off the top of my head, many others that can do what he does. So, for me, as long as we're running this offense the last thing I want to do is lose Cook. Do I want to pay him 'highest RB in the league' money? No, absolutely not. But I agree with PHP, I don't think we'll have to. So if we can find a way to extend him without completely breaking the bank I'm all for it.

I agree that I don't think we will have to pay him that much. Also cut Rudolph if we have to pay him.

VikingsVictorious wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:45 am

S197 wrote: ↑Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:55 am Cook is an incredible player but I’m not a fan of giving RBs big contracts. Who has that worked out well for?

This is going to be a really challenging offseason. No rookie camp, OTAs will probably be cancelled, even training camp isn’t a guarantee. All of that against a backdrop of a team that is losing a ton of vets and will need to rely on rookies and 2nd year players. Season seems like a sunk cost to me. Even under optimal conditions Zimmer hasn’t been able to produce back to back winning seasons. Suddenly he’s going to do it with those headwinds? Seems unlikely to me. This is the season to rebuild and reassess.

We are currently on three winning seasons in a row.