Vikings Message Board.Com

Mothman wrote: It's a simple tier-based ranking from best to worst. That's the stated intent of the exercise. The tier descriptions are basically window dressing.

Fair enough...to me, defining "best", is pretty important to establishing the tiers and ranking who is best. But we can just go Madden on it and keep it loose.

PsyDanny wrote:Jim - it is GREAT to have you back!

Thanks, I appreciate that.

autobon7 wrote:Forgot 1 important tier......QBs who drive you bananas (Rodgers, Rape-less-burger, dancin Cam)

randomghost11 wrote:The tiers make sense to me. Tier 1 ( Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben) is the guys you put your entire faith in at all times and they tend to pull through. Tier 2 (Cam, Brees, Wilson, Luck, Rivers, Eli, Palmer, Romo, Flacco, Stafford, Dalton) QBs show greatness at times but still have stretches where they look pretty off. Tier 3 ( Carr, Winston, Smith, Mariota, Cousins, Cutler, Bortles, Bridgewater, Tannehill, Fitzpatrick, Taylor, Osweiler, Bradford) is the most different to me. I'd say Carr, Winston, Mariota, Bortles , and Bridgewater are still guys that we will see much improvement from. Cousins, Tannehill, Taylor, and Osweiler can still improve a little but I doubt they have career changing development at this point. Smith, Cutler, Fitz, and Bradford are basically what they are.

See, I'm not sure I would put Brady and Ben in tier one. Why? Because they have consistently had a top defense every year. Brady has had a top 10 defense 11 of his 14 full seasons. And Ben, 7 of his 12 he has had a top 10 defense. Rodgers on the other hand, has only had 2 top ten defense's in his career so far. And between the three of them, the Super Bowl victories, their defense ran like this in points allowed for the year. 6, 1, 2, 8, 3, 1, 2. But I am sure they "carried" their team during the SB runs.

I'll give you another example. Drew Brees has almost the exact same stats as Brady. The only difference is that Brees has only had a top 10 defense twice in his career. The Patriots have held the other teams to 18.3 ppg as opposed to the Defense for the teams Brees has played on held their teams to 23.1 ppg. That's a huge difference. So why is Brady tier 1, and Brees tier 2?

In every stat line except interception percentage yards per game, Russel Wilson beats out Brady. TD%, completion %, Yards per attempt, yards per catch, QB rate. Yet he is considered lower tier. Of course it's because he has had the number one defense in points his whole career. Funny how that defense is never mentioned with Brady.

Raptorman wrote: See, I'm not sure I would put Brady and Ben in tier one. Why? Because they have consistently had a top defense every year. Brady has had a top 10 defense 11 of his 14 full seasons. And Ben, 7 of his 12 he has had a top 10 defense. Rodgers on the other hand, has only had 2 top ten defense's in his career so far. And between the three of them, the Super Bowl victories, their defense ran like this in points allowed for the year. 6, 1, 2, 8, 3, 1, 2. But I am sure they "carried" their team during the SB runs.

I'll give you another example. Drew Brees has almost the exact same stats as Brady. The only difference is that Brees has only had a top 10 defense twice in his career. The Patriots have held the other teams to 18.3 ppg as opposed to the Defense for the teams Brees has played on held their teams to 23.1 ppg. That's a huge difference. So why is Brady tier 1, and Brees tier 2?

In every stat line except interception percentage yards per game, Russel Wilson beats out Brady. TD%, completion %, Yards per attempt, yards per catch, QB rate. Yet he is considered lower tier. Of course it's because he has had the number one defense in points his whole career. Funny how that defense is never mentioned with Brady.

I would put Brady and Ben in the top tier (again, setting aside the tier explanations) but you raise interesting points. Add in factors like protection, recievers, coaching, continuity, and measuring who is best starts to become tenuous. That's why the conversation among fans usually falls back to either conventional wisdom or stats, because unless fans have enough knowledge/expertise to get beyond that, the conversation will never advance beyond that point. The result is a conversation that is about a fun house mirror reflection of reality, instead of a conversation about reality itself.

Add in factors like protection, recievers, coaching, continuity, and measuring who is best starts to become tenuous.

I think when you start to add that, it becomes less tenuous. Guys like Brady and Big Ben become even more clearly better than guys like Teddy.

Demi wrote: I think when you start to add that, it becomes less tenuous. Guys like Brady and Big Ben become even more clearly better than guys like Teddy.

fiestavike wrote: I think these tiers are pretty poorly constructed, but taking it as it is, I would agree 2015 Teddy was Tier 3. These tiers have all kinds of baggage from surrounding team factors which make them pretty useless though. I would imagine a lot of QBs that would be in Tier 2, Stafford, Cutler, Winston, etc. "sometimes" lose games about as often as they "sometimes" carry their team. I wonder how many superbowls have gone to QBs who would be categorizred as "Tier 3". Until a QB is Tier 1, I would rather have a Tier 3 QB than a Tier 2 QB.

Cutler and Stafford are not 'tier 2', Cutty had his best year in forever last year, but typically they both suck pretty hard and are constantly elevated undeservedly because of their height and arm strength.

I'm interested to see Stafford post-megatron.

Sent using tapatalk. Typos should be expected.

Nah, Cutler is above Bridgewater in that he can get it in the end zone. He had 22 total touchdowns last year, Bridgewater had 17. Or passing touchdowns, 21 versus 14. Just think how big a difference one TD can be. He's also substantially better as a down field threat accuracy and power wise. Jay Cutler has a 4500+ yard season under his belt. I don't think Teddy's ceiling is that high.

Edit: Just imagine what our record would be if Teddy Bridgewater threw for 21 touchdowns next season instead of 14.

Hunter Morrow wrote:Nah, Cutler is above Bridgewater in that he can get it in the end zone. He had 22 total touchdowns last year, Bridgewater had 17. Or passing touchdowns, 21 versus 14. Just think how big a difference one TD can be. He's also substantially better as a down field threat accuracy and power wise. Jay Cutler has a 4500+ yard season under his belt. I don't think Teddy's ceiling is that high.

Edit: Just imagine what our record would be if Teddy Bridgewater threw for 21 touchdowns next season instead of 14.

If the over/under on Teddy passing TDs in 2016 is 14 I'm taking the over. We ran it more than I believe any other team in the red zone (and/or inside the 10). That's going to affect passing TDs. Show me stats of Cutler's attempts inside the 20/10 and then compare those to Teddy's.

Let's not compare the type of schemes Cutler and Teddy have played in the last few years. I don't buy that Cutler has better accuracy than Teddy down the field. He might have the advantage in previous years in balls traveling more than 25 yards but I'd put Teddy against Cutler for intermediate (and short I suppose) any day of the week.

dead_poet wrote: If the over/under on Teddy passing TDs in 2016 is 14 I'm taking the over. We ran it more than I believe any other team in the red zone (and/or inside the 10). That's going to affect passing TDs. Show me stats of Cutler's attempts inside the 20/10 and then compare those to Teddy's.

Let's not compare the type of schemes Cutler and Teddy have played in the last few years. I don't buy that Cutler has better accuracy than Teddy down the field. He might have the advantage in previous years in balls traveling more than 25 yards but I'd put Teddy against Cutler for intermediate (and short I suppose) any day of the week.

Give them the same level of protection and talent around them and I think Cutler is clearly the more dangerous QB. Ditto for Stafford.

Mothman wrote:
Give them the same level of protection and talent around them and I think Cutler is clearly the more dangerous QB. Ditto for Stafford.

At this point in their respective careers, probably. Cutler and Stafford are seasoned veterans. This will be a telling year for Teddy for sure. Year three typically is for QBs. Worth noting that Cutler's second year compares pretty well with Teddy's second year. Cutler had 266 more passing yards on 20 more attempts. 20 TDs (compared to Teddy's 14), 14 INTs (compared to Teddy's 9). 88.1 QBR (to Teddy's 88.7). Teddy may not have Cutler's arm, but he may have better decision-making abilities. Hopefully he ends up as good or better as both.

dead_poet wrote:At this point in their respective careers, probably. Cutler and Stafford are seasoned veterans. This will be a telling year for Teddy for sure. Year three typically is for QBs. Worth noting that Cutler's second year compares pretty well with Teddy's second year. Cutler had 266 more passing yards on 20 more attempts. 20 TDs (compared to Teddy's 14), 14 INTs (compared to Teddy's 9). 88.1 QBR (to Teddy's 88.7). Teddy may not have Cutler's arm, but he may have better decision-making abilities. Hopefully he ends up as good or better as both.

Let's also hope Bridgewater never has to work with 6 different offensive coordinators over an 8 year span with the same Vikings team. I hope he starts getting better protection soon too. I think Cutler's career could have gone much differently, and been much more successful, if he'd landed in a better situation. He's played behind some truly lousy o-lines in Chicago and in too many unstable coaching situations. He's been his own worst enemy at times too but I suspect the instability around him would be tough on any QB.

More Bridgewater stuff:

SI's Peter King: Bridgewater has been 'crummy or mediocre' in some big games

Of particular interest — as always — were King’s thoughts on Bridgewater and why opinions about the Vikings QB are all over the map. His answers were logical and rational, with more than one variation on this quote: “Nobody knows for sure about whether he’s going to be great.”

The reason the jury is still out, King said, is that we don’t have a large enough body of work yet — and some of the body of work we have has raised some red flags.

“He’s a young quarterback who has played some big games and been either crummy or mediocre,” King said.

Michael Rand then points to some of the games that might be described as 'crummy" (@Sf, home against SEA in the regular season, @GB) while also stating the word "might be a little harsh". he then writes:

You can also make an equal case that he’s been forced to do more with less, both from an offensive line and WR standpoint, than virtually any other QB in the league — let alone a young guy trying to establish himself.

Again, shared because I think it's useful to get perspectives from outside the Vikes organization and fandom.

Mothman wrote: Let's also hope Bridgewater never has to work with 6 different offensive coordinators over an 8 year span with the same Vikings team. I hope he starts getting better protection soon too. I think Cutler's career could have gone much differently, and been much more successful, if he'd landed in a better situation. He's played behind some truly lousy o-lines in Chicago and in too many unstable coaching situations. He's been his own worst enemy at times too but I suspect the instability around him would be tough on any QB.

Cutler had a bevy of big targets, and a very, very good RB for a good portion of his career, prior to that he had a series of very good D's one of which grabbed him by the collar of the neck and dragged him and threw him into an NFCCG, where he played utterly worthless and was subsequently outshined by his third string back up.

He has crossed 4000 yards once, broke 30 TDs never and had a season passer rating over 90 once.

Cutler's problem is that he #### sucks. He has all the physical talent he needs but he cant figure out how to make enough good decision to make him something above a bad NFL starting QB. Sure he has had a couple decent seasons. (Litterally, two.) But his career production says it al.