Vikings Message Board.Com

patterson and johnson never even found the field, wallace was basically non-existent and wright had pedestrian numbers. i'm pretty sure there is much more to the picture. i read the other day that our o-line was the only line to start all 5 starters this season. i know they did bad early on and even up until half way, but i for one didn't think they played all that badly down the stretch.

mosscarter wrote:patterson and johnson never even found the field, wallace was basically non-existent and wright had pedestrian numbers. i'm pretty sure there is much more to the picture.

Yeah, I think you're right: we have bad receivers. Or was it that we ran too much? I can never tell what your angle is!

I see two problems:

1. He should have trained with Irvin when zimmer set it up.

2. He gave himself lame nickname.

vatusay wrote:I see two problems:

1. He should have trained with Irvin when zimmer set it up.

2. He gave himself lame nickname.

Which both show the two big problems, he isn't very bright. And he's immature.

fiestavike wrote: But then diggs, Wright, and Thielen will be on the bench...

No they won't. Diggs and Wright will get the ball a lot just like this year. Thielen will get some chances.

According to Zimmer, Bridgewater is at his best when he's spreading the ball around. That means guys like Patterson and Johnson should get catches too. Of course, that's assuming the Vikings really are going to pass more next year, which I think they'll do if they can get their pass protection working. The OL doing its job correctly is still the biggest problem for the offense.

I think Patterson could benefit from having a big strong true number 1 guy. If there was a double team mismatch guy on one side and Diggs either in the slot or on the other side, Patterson wouldn't be keyed in nearly as often. Also, with a bigger receiver we would have a better blocker for his reverses/sweeps/screens.

Just a thought.

DK Sweets wrote:I think Patterson could benefit from having a big strong true number 1 guy. If there was a double team mismatch guy on one side and Diggs either in the slot or on the other side, Patterson wouldn't be keyed in nearly as often. Also, with a bigger receiver we would have a better blocker for his reverses/sweeps/screens.

Just a thought.

It's a good thought. I could see something like that helping the entire passing game.

They only use him as a decoy. NOTHING against McKinnon but some of those shallow crosses Teddy hits McKinnon with and he takes for 8-12 yards could be touchdowns with Patterson. Nobody on the team, and that's including Adrian, has that acceleration. The guy has already proven that he is as explosive with the ball in his hands as anyone out there. So why in the hell, and this is the smoking gun as far as I'm concerned, can Musgrave get 9 combined touchdowns from him as a rookie, in limited action up until about week freaking 9, and turner can't even let him see the field. And don't give me the "he doesn't try" routine because it's bogus.

We can speculate all we want, it is a message board after all. It's what we do. But lets look at the facts for a second. Let's start by looking at his numbers:

Game Rece Rush
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G YScm RR TD Fmb AV
2013 22 MIN wr 84 16 6 77 45 469 10.4 4 79 2.8 29.3 12 158 3 50 13.2 9.9 0.8 627 7 0 8
2014 23 MIN wr 84 16 7 67 33 384 11.6 1 28 2.1 24.0 10 117 1 67 11.7 7.3 0.6 501 2 1 4
2015 24 MIN wr 84 16 1 2 2 10 5.0 0 9 0.1 0.6 2 15 0 9 7.5 0.9 0.1 25 0 1 2
Career 48 14 146 80 863 10.8 5 79 1.7 18.0 24 290 4 67 12.1 6.0 0.5 1153 9 2 12

He was labeled as a starter for 6 weeks in 2013. This is where it gets suspect. In 2014, first year under Zimmer and Turner, he started the season with a 67 yard rushing td vs St Louis. In the season as a whole vs 2013, where he wasn't started until week 10 I think under Musgrave and Frazier, he had 1 more "game started, 10 less targets, 12 less receptions, 85 less receiving yards. His yards per reception were up a bit, down 3 touchdowns, and yards per game were a bit less. These are not like "holy crap, what happened to him" disparities, These are small drops in production which are expected seeing as they Started a rookie QB after the saints game, a QB which didn't put up tack sharp numbers regardless of who they were playing or who he was throwing to. In 2013 he was started late, in 2014 he was benched roughly mid season. How does someone who doesn't seem to be a problem, and who has never has his work ethic questioned to my knowledge, go from the rookie of the year voting with very limited playing time, to a quiet benching the year after. Let's look into this a bit further.

Some chargers forum guy brung up something from espn radio...

I heard an interesting stat today on ESPN radio. They were talking about Norv Turner's offensive scheme. This guy said that the Chargers have lined up in the I formation 40 times this year with Lorenzo Neal at Fullback and of course LT at tailback. This is their base offensive formation. From this formation they have ran the ball 38 of 40 times. Pretty predictable. On those 38 runs they have only 81 yards rushing.

And this one is a quote on another chargers page from an MSN sports article that's been buried in the archives....

Philip Rivers finished fifth in the league in DPAR (88.6), threw for 3,388 yards, and led his teams to a 14-2 record. Still, his performances against the Raiders in Week 12 (14-of-31, 133 yards, one interception) and Chiefs in Week 15 (8-of-23, 97 yards, two interceptions) suggest that Rivers is still suffering through some growing pains. New coach Norv Turner will focus on fundamentals to improve Rivers' awkward backpedal and delivery style. But Turner's system lacks creativity, and Rivers may struggle when opponents figure out the game plan.

These articles are from 2007. There is also a widespread internet article base about him losing locker rooms as a head coach. Go check it out, its pretty informative, especially LT going on nfl.com and saying it as well. Now the issue as I see it, is that Zimmer is letting him have too much rope. This is an opinion obviously but as I've stated before, if this is the case you are playing Russian roulette with a pistol. Turners record as a head coach is 114-122, frontloaded by a few extremely lopsided seasons, and he's still under 500. His offensive rankings are not all that great altogether. He has been known to disrupt locker rooms, and 8/25 years that this offensive "guru" has been a coordinator or a coach has his team posted a top 10 offense. As a matter of fact he has 7 20+ rank finishes. This is not Parcells, this is a guy who is going to get you fired if you keep up these shenanigans.

Everything I'm seeing is pointing towards Turner being set in his ways and having "his guys" and that's how it's going to be. That is complete and utter horse manure. There is no way you can argue the fact and being a Vikings fan, that Musgrave could get that much production out of Patterson with Ponder and Cassel under center plus using him in the run game, and all of a sudden here comes Turner and Patterson is benched. All of a sudden "he's a bad route runner and can't learn". This makes absolutely no sense to me. This is what I'm zeroing in on. It's kind of like living alone for 5 years. Everything is good. You decide to get a roommate and within a few weeks, you start noticing things disappearing. Are you going to blame yourself and say "hmm, I might be misplacing stuff". No, you won't, lets call a spade a spade here. This teams offensive struggles are directly linked to an offensive coordinator who has a history of being predictable and misusing talent. And the Patterson situation is bonafide proof that Turner is incapable of changing his approach.

That was a very solid post, Boon.

How does someone who doesn't seem to be a problem, and who has never has his work ethic questioned to my knowledge,

http://www.vikings.com/news/article-1/C ... ede7a7789e

Patterson's plummet had more to do with inexperience than character, though there were some who questioned his work ethic and ability to pick up a complex offense. But the Vikings saw too much raw skill to pass up, so they packaged four draft picks to jump back into the first round at pick No. 29 to take him.

The very first article that pops up when you google Patterson work ethic is a vikings.com from when he was drafted mentioning people questioning his work ethic.

And then not working with Irvin when the Vikings reached out to him?

http://purpleptsd.com/2015/11/29/michae ... patterson/

I'm sure there are other reports out there, if it was a question before he was even drafted.

Boon wrote:They only use him as a decoy. NOTHING against McKinnon but some of those shallow crosses Teddy hits McKinnon with and he takes for 8-12 yards could be touchdowns with Patterson. Nobody on the team, and that's including Adrian, has that acceleration. The guy has already proven that he is as explosive with the ball in his hands as anyone out there. So why in the hell, and this is the smoking gun as far as I'm concerned, can Musgrave get 9 combined touchdowns from him as a rookie, in limited action up until about week freaking 9, and turner can't even let him see the field. And don't give me the "he doesn't try" routine because it's bogus.

We can speculate all we want, it is a message board after all. It's what we do. But lets look at the facts for a second. Let's start by looking at his numbers:

Game Rece Rush
Year Age Tm Pos No. G GS Tgt Rec Yds Y/R TD Lng R/G Y/G Att Yds TD Lng Y/A Y/G A/G YScm RR TD Fmb AV
2013 22 MIN wr 84 16 6 77 45 469 10.4 4 79 2.8 29.3 12 158 3 50 13.2 9.9 0.8 627 7 0 8
2014 23 MIN wr 84 16 7 67 33 384 11.6 1 28 2.1 24.0 10 117 1 67 11.7 7.3 0.6 501 2 1 4
2015 24 MIN wr 84 16 1 2 2 10 5.0 0 9 0.1 0.6 2 15 0 9 7.5 0.9 0.1 25 0 1 2
Career 48 14 146 80 863 10.8 5 79 1.7 18.0 24 290 4 67 12.1 6.0 0.5 1153 9 2 12

He was labeled as a starter for 6 weeks in 2013. This is where it gets suspect. In 2014, first year under Zimmer and Turner, he started the season with a 67 yard rushing td vs St Louis. In the season as a whole vs 2013, where he wasn't started until week 10 I think under Musgrave and Frazier, he had 1 more "game started, 10 less targets, 12 less receptions, 85 less receiving yards. His yards per reception were up a bit, down 3 touchdowns, and yards per game were a bit less. These are not like "holy crap, what happened to him" disparities, These are small drops in production which are expected seeing as they Started a rookie QB after the saints game, a QB which didn't put up tack sharp numbers regardless of who they were playing or who he was throwing to. In 2013 he was started late, in 2014 he was benched roughly mid season. How does someone who doesn't seem to be a problem, and who has never has his work ethic questioned to my knowledge, go from the rookie of the year voting with very limited playing time, to a quiet benching the year after. Let's look into this a bit further.

Some chargers forum guy brung up something from espn radio...
And this one is a quote on another chargers page from an MSN sports article that's been buried in the archives....
These articles are from 2007. There is also a widespread internet article base about him losing locker rooms as a head coach. Go check it out, its pretty informative, especially LT going on nfl.com and saying it as well. Now the issue as I see it, is that Zimmer is letting him have too much rope. This is an opinion obviously but as I've stated before, if this is the case you are playing Russian roulette with a pistol. Turners record as a head coach is 114-122, frontloaded by a few extremely lopsided seasons, and he's still under 500. His offensive rankings are not all that great altogether. He has been known to disrupt locker rooms, and 8/25 years that this offensive "guru" has been a coordinator or a coach has his team posted a top 10 offense. As a matter of fact he has 7 20+ rank finishes. This is not Parcells, this is a guy who is going to get you fired if you keep up these shenanigans.

Everything I'm seeing is pointing towards Turner being set in his ways and having "his guys" and that's how it's going to be. That is complete and utter horse manure. There is no way you can argue the fact and being a Vikings fan, that Musgrave could get that much production out of Patterson with Ponder and Cassel under center plus using him in the run game, and all of a sudden here comes Turner and Patterson is benched. All of a sudden "he's a bad route runner and can't learn". This makes absolutely no sense to me. This is what I'm zeroing in on. It's kind of like living alone for 5 years. Everything is good. You decide to get a roommate and within a few weeks, you start noticing things disappearing. Are you going to blame yourself and say "hmm, I might be misplacing stuff". No, you won't, lets call a spade a spade here. This teams offensive struggles are directly linked to an offensive coordinator who has a history of being predictable and misusing talent. And the Patterson situation is bonafide proof that Turner is incapable of changing his approach.

Great post. Well researched.

We don't know exactly what's going on and some inexplicably wag their fingers at Patterson. But the main problem remains talent (Patterson and Johnson) being squandered on the bench.

Demi wrote: http://www.vikings.com/news/article-1/C ... ede7a7789e
The very first article that pops up when you google Patterson work ethic is a vikings.com from when he was drafted mentioning people questioning his work ethic.

And then not working with Irvin when the Vikings reached out to him?

http://purpleptsd.com/2015/11/29/michae ... patterson/

I'm sure there are other reports out there, if it was a question before he was even drafted.

It was a question before he was drafted, but the fact is that musgrave and frazier made him into a weapon. Somehow they managed to incorporate him into the offense and teams had to really account for him being on the field at all times. It was so bad on special teams that teams stopped kicking to him, like in the philly game where they squibbed every kick. The guy is explosive. And SOMEHOW when turner rolls into town, all of a sudden he has problems learning and gets benched. Musgraves offense was actually ranked higher, that is comical.

And now all of a sudden it's johnson too. Nobody is saying anything but a guy who came in with super high expectations and showed promise and skills, SOMEHOW finds his way to the bench too.

I stand by my guns. This is not patterson, this is on turner.

Boon wrote:
It was a question before he was drafted, but the fact is that musgrave and frazier made him into a weapon. Somehow they managed to incorporate him into the offense and teams had to really account for him being on the field at all times. It was so bad on special teams that teams stopped kicking to him, like in the philly game where they squibbed every kick. The guy is explosive. And SOMEHOW when turner rolls into town, all of a sudden he has problems learning and gets benched. Musgraves offense was actually ranked higher, that is comical.

I stand by my guns. This is not patterson, this is on turner.

Note that our WR depth chart looks much different now then it did then. Patterson may have been one of the top-3 receivers and was played by default because of it. With Wallace & Diggs in town (Wright in the slot) it's hard for a guy that struggles with press coverage and runs questionable routes to bypass the others.

dead_poet wrote:Note that our WR depth chart looks much different now then it did then. Patterson may have been one of the top-3 receivers and was played by default because of it. With Wallace & Diggs in town (Wright in the slot) it's hard for a guy that struggles with press coverage and runs questionable routes to bypass the others.

Assuming either of those things are even true anymore... and if they are, why has there been no improvement in almost 2 years under this coaching staff?

The rest of this is just general griping, not directed at anyone in particular.

If there's been no improvement in almost 2 years what does that say about the job Patterson's position coach is doing? How many reps is Patterson even getting as a WR in practice? Are they acually making an effort to develop him in that capacity or did they give up on it?

I sure wish we had a better idea of what's going on instead of Zimmer's vague comments on the matter.

As we all know, Patterson scored 6 offensive TDs in the last 5 games of 2013. He scored another in the first game of 2014. That's 7 TDs in 6 games.

To put that into perspective, Vikings WRs scored 6 TDs in the entire 2015 season (4 for Diggs, 2 for Wallace).

Patterson runs routes well enough to get open. He catches the ball well. It's hard to believe, even if he made some mistakes or struggled at times, that he couldn't have produced at or above the level of most of the Vikings receivers this season. For example, Wallace had 39 catches for 473 yards and played in all 16 games. In 2014, Patterson had 33 catches for 384 yards and his playing time was seriously reduced over the last 7 games of that season.

I get the feeling they just have little to no interest in developing the kid. Maybe he has an attitude problem. Maybe it's something else. It's just frustrating to see that kind of playmaking ability squandered while we watch one of the least productive, least explosive passing games in the league.

Mothman wrote:
I get the feeling they just have little to no interest in developing the kid. Maybe he has an attitude problem. Maybe it's something else. It's just frustrating to see that kind of playmaking ability squandered while we watch one of the least productive, least explosive passing games in the league.

And if this coaching staff is reluctant, they may as well let him go somewhere he can be appreciated. I can guarantee he will have success wherever he goes.