Vikings Message Board.Com

TeddyBaller wrote: who cares about carr dude, he'll never win anything with the raiders

Read the thread title.

Haven't we covered this ad nauseum in other threads?

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as long as commander zimm felt he was the better qb, who am i to question him.. zimm has been right on everything so far, everything the great zimm has touched in minny has turned to gold

why is manziel not including in this debate

720pete wrote:I'd rather have Carr, but hindsight is always 20/20.

Carr has thrown 21 tds and 6 interceptions this season
Bridgewater has 7td and 6 picks

Now Carr does have 25% more passing attempts that Teddy, but even if we inflate Teddy's stats by 25%, that would be 9 tds and 7.5 picks.

Teddy also has 24 sacks, to Carr's 10.

You pointed out one of the main reasons/concerns 24 sacks to 10=2 and one half more times. As a side note, those yards given up via the sacks are taken away fro the QB's passing yards. And as I have mentioned, Carr playing behind this Viking line would have resulted in him being on the IR by now in all likelyhood

Too hard to say right now as they are in completely different situations.

One guy has a great pass blocking O-line, two probowl wide recievers, a very mediocre run game that can't be relied on, and a below average defense that gives up a ton of points giving him a lot of garbage time stats.

The other guy has one of the worst O-lines in the league, a 5th round rookie as his top pass catcher, the greatest running back of all time in his back field, and the #1 defense in the league leading to negative game script every single week.

Right now I like both guys quite a bit. Essentially it boils down to this, the Raiders have needed Carr to do more so we've seen him do more. The vikings don't need Teddy to do much so we haven't seen him do much.

Very well stated Mondry.
However, in a redraft, I take Carr. Since the draft, and even before and during this season, so many have criticized TB's arm and deep ball. Never does anyone question Carr's arm. Someone mentioned the Pro Bowl WR thing. Cooper is a rookie and Crabtree was a castoff!
Not to say that he's a great QB, but he's doing very well. True the OL sucks, but we run a different type of system based on our teams skill set. Guarantee that if we had Carr that we would throw it more.
I am a huge Teddy fan, as evidenced by my jerseys, but I also think that he's a manager right now. True, I love him under pressure and he wins!!!!! How will he do when he has to throw 35-40 passes a game? We'll see in 2 years !!
Hopefully he performs like he did at Louisville.

losperros wrote:That has to be the answer unless the coaches completely ignore the strengths and weaknesses of the quarterback.

Regarding the Vikings, they would probably be foolish to play Bridgewater as a gunslinger. That's simply not his game, at least not from what I've seen from him this season. Plus the coaches have to take in everything else about the offense, such as the OL (which doesn't pass block all that well) and a superstar RB that really does need to be featured.

I'll go one step further and say there are things the Vikings can possibly do to escalate Teddy's current game. Just my two cents but they could go with shorter developing pass routes, which may help Bridgewater get the ball out quicker. And they could play Patterson more often. There are other things but I think those two would be a great start.

I forgot to reply to your post yesterday, Craig.

I definitely agree with you, especially about your last point. They're doing some things to help Bridgewater but I think they could do more.

I also want to see more aggressive coaching of Teddy. He certainly has proven that he doesnt have a great arm for deep passes. When he tries deep routes he has to throw with every ounce of his body and loses accuracy doing so. BUT, the Vikes knew this when they drafted him and should have evolved a passing scheme to address this while working on his strength and mechanics. He IS a a very young kid and can improve his strength. He seems REALLY mature and calm and I find it hard to believe that he isnt VERY coachable. I think he would make great strides with the right QB coach. BUT.....until he has at least a mediocre OL he isnt likely to make any great strides.

chicagopurple wrote:I also want to see more aggressive coaching of Teddy. He certainly has proven that he doesnt have a great arm for deep passes. When he tries deep routes he has to throw with every ounce of his body and loses accuracy doing so. BUT, the Vikes knew this when they drafted him and should have evolved a passing scheme to address this while working on his strength and mechanics. He IS a a very young kid and can improve his strength. He seems REALLY mature and calm and I find it hard to believe that he isnt VERY coachable. I think he would make great strides with the right QB coach. BUT.....until he has at least a mediocre OL he isnt likely to make any great strides.

Agree with all the above.

Regarding evolving a passing scheme, you're very right. It's weird because Teddy was a WCO passer (not a thrower) and had great success. One would think that would guide the Vikings in making an offensive scheme that fits Bridgewater. OTOH, I have seen a bit more of that kind of scheme from the Vikings week to week.

I think Teddy is, If you look at the amount of attempts Derek Carr takes over Teddy and compare the yards teddy would have he would throw for about the same yardage. More attempts more chances at touchdowns, more passes into the end zone, hes a different quarterback than Derek Carr, yet when we need teddy to throw hes done it very well.

Mercy Percy wrote:I think Teddy is, If you look at the amount of attempts Derek Carr takes over Teddy and compare the yards teddy would have he would throw for about the same yardage. More attempts more chances at touchdowns, more passes into the end zone, hes a different quarterback than Derek Carr, yet when we need teddy to throw hes done it very well.

Here are the numbers for this season, for those interested:

Carr:
316 attempts
203 completions (64.2%)
2396 yards
7.6 YPA
21 TDs
6 INT
10 sacks

Bridgewater:
254 attempts
163 completions (64.2%)
1810 yards
7.1 YPA
7 TDs
6 INT
24 sacks

Carr has 62 more attempts this year. Since they have the same completion percentage, let's simply assume Bridgewater would have the same number of completions as Carr if he had the same number of attempts. Bridgewater's passing stats with the same number of attempts project to:

316 attempts
203 completions (64.2%)
2244 yards
7.1 YPA
9 TDs
8-9 INTs
27 sacks

In other words, compared to Carr, he would have:

-152 yards
-12 TDs
+2-3 INTs
+17 sacks

Statistically, the advantage clearly still goes to Carr but, of course, stats aren't everything.

Mothman wrote:
In other words, compared to Carr, he would have:

-152 yards
-12 TDs
+2-3 INTs
+17 sacks

Statistically, the advantage clearly still goes to Carr but, of course, stats aren't everything.

Yeah, I mean the big correlation there is that pressures lead to sacks and that leads to needing to get rid of the ball quicker which leads to a lower YPA because the routes can't develop and can lead to bad decisions thus INT's. It's just so much easier to play QB when your hot route is Cooper / crabtree and your line just in general holds up much better. When it comes to these things, we saw how good a guy like Matt Cassell can look with a strong o-line behind him in NE while floundering every where else. We've also seen how negatively bad o-line play can impact a guy we know is good like andrew luck who's having probably the worst season of his career.

Given that Bridgewaters extrapolated numbers look similar based on yardage, I'm actually coming away from this in favor of bridgewater more than I thought I would be. I thought Carrs YPA would be much higher given his better WR's and better O-line play.

Fix our O-line and I'd be willing to put money on the ints and sacks coming down significantly and from there gimme Bridgewater.

mondry wrote:Yeah, I mean the big correlation there is that pressures lead to sacks and that leads to needing to get rid of the ball quicker which leads to a lower YPA because the routes can't develop and can lead to bad decisions thus INT's. It's just so much easier to play QB when your hot route is Cooper / crabtree and your line just in general holds up much better. When it comes to these things, we saw how good a guy like Matt Cassell can look with a strong o-line behind him in NE while floundering every where else. We've also seen how negatively bad o-line play can impact a guy we know is good like andrew luck who's having probably the worst season of his career.

Given that Bridgewaters extrapolated numbers look similar based on yardage, I'm actually coming away from this in favor of bridgewater more than I thought I would be. I thought Carrs YPA would be much higher given his better WR's and better O-line play.

Fix our O-line and I'd be willing to put money on the ints and sacks coming down significantly and from there gimme Bridgewater.

That's a generous assessment but it seems to give Bridgewater himself a pass. Cooper and Crabtree make a difference, no doubt, but I think the stats reflect a difference in physical ability and the mentality each player is bringing to the position. Carr has a more aggressive mentality this year and the arm to throw downfield, gun the ball into tight windows, etc. He also plays smart from the pocket and avoids sacks by getting rid of the ball.

Bridgewater holds the ball too long, has a far more conservative mentality and lacks the arm to make some of the throws Carr can make. It's not a coincidence that the Vikes have had little to no downfield passing game in windy, outdoor games of late, nor is it a coincidence Mike Wallace is on pace to have his least productive (full) season as a pro.

As I said up thread, it's too early to make a final determination about who will be the better QB but I think there's a clear leader in the "race" at this point...

... and Bortles, Mariota, Manziel and Winston haven't even been included.

Here's an article at NFL.com that may interest people:

Blake Bortles, Marcus Mariota developing at promising rate

It's written by Brian Billick. He wriotes about bridgewater and other yong Qbs in today's game. It's worth reading.

A few quotes:

Bortles was of particular interest to me because of where he is in his development -- his second year. The legendary Bill Walsh said that you will know if a player is going to be good enough to thrive in this league by the midway point of his sophomore season -- or, in other words, the 24th or 25th start. If the player did not show his true potential by this point, or earlier, he likely was not going to be the guy you need to win with.

As I've said many times before, one of the toughest things to do when evaluating a quarterback is separating him from what is going on around him, both good and bad. Bortles and Carr are on teams that have not fared as well, thus forcing each to attempt well over 500 passes. Both have similar output in total yards and have thrown more than 20 touchdown passes. Bortles, as evidenced by the sack totals, has been under constant pressure due to a suspect offensive line, and Carr is now benefiting from support players like Amari Cooper and Latavius Murray.

That sentence highlighted in bold seems especially relevant to the discussion in this thread.