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I like Watson but I don't get why anyone would be willing to give up 3 First rounders for him. That's a mistake. Watson is good but he isn't that good.

It'll never happen. Between Zimmer being Zimmer and Kirk's contract no way we'd get that lucky.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:10 pm I like Watson but I don't get why anyone would be willing to give up 3 First rounders for him. That's a mistake. Watson is good but he isn't that good.

1st rounders are great until you put a name to them.

Viking's last 3 1st rounders: Bradbury, Gladney and Hughes. Would you give those up for Watson?


Even if you throw Buffalo's 1st in there and it is Bradbury, Gladney and JJ it is still a no brainer.

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:10 pm I like Watson but I don't get why anyone would be willing to give up 3 First rounders for him. That's a mistake. Watson is good but he isn't that good.

Agreed. No player is worth that kind of capital. Watson looks good. But he, until this year, has been on a good team. Very solid roster. Good weapons, good D, good running game. Does he look this good because of the team around him? Would he look that good and been a top 5ish QB, if he had been drafted by the Jets? Does He make that team look better than they actually are? I don't know the answers to these questions. We do know that despite this elite status he is being given, on a very solid team, he has won 1 playoff game. And this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything. No player is worth that kind of capital. I'd love to have him on the team, but not like that.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:52 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:32 pm Just read the same.



All I can say is, “Please, football gods, don’t tease us.”

We all know that Deshaun Watson is available. If the Vikings could somehow unload Cousins on the Niners, what would you be willing to give up for Watson?

I’ll start the bidding at first-rounders in 2021 and 2022, a second-rounder in 2023, and a third this year. Knowing that it’s not likely that Houston would take this offer, I’d be willing to up the ante, but that’s where I’d start.

What say you all?

The Jets just have too much to give up for Watson this season for us to match them unless we are willing to part with Hunter, and even that might not be enough.

Don't forget the caveat that Watson has a no trade clause. If he prefers the Vikings to the Jets, Houston might be forced to take less...then again, they don't have to do anything really.

If Vikings get Watson, I hope you all do not complain how expensive Watson is since Watson's contract is much more expensive than Cousins' contract

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:00 pm

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:10 pm I like Watson but I don't get why anyone would be willing to give up 3 First rounders for him. That's a mistake. Watson is good but he isn't that good.

Agreed. No player is worth that kind of capital. Watson looks good. But he, until this year, has been on a good team. Very solid roster. Good weapons, good D, good running game. Does he look this good because of the team around him? Would he look that good and been a top 5ish QB, if he had been drafted by the Jets? Does He make that team look better than they actually are? I don't know the answers to these questions. We do know that despite this elite status he is being given, on a very solid team, he has won 1 playoff game. And this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything. No player is worth that kind of capital. I'd love to have him on the team, but not like that.

2019 his defense was ranked 27th in scoring, just one spot above ours this year, and he won 10 games and went to the divisional round where his offense put up 31 points. I'd say he made that team better, but there is only so much a QB can do.

The prior year, his first full year as a starter, his team was all around a good team.

2020, he lost his best weapon in a terrible trade, had very little run support, had a terrible defense, an offensive line that gave up one more pressure than ours did, lost his second best receiver in week 11 and had teammates apologizing to him for wasting the year he had after the final game of the season.

He instantly makes the Vikings a contender whether we have 3 1st round picks to spend on non-impact players like Bradbury, Hughes and Gladney over the next 3 seasons or not.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:24 am

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:00 pm Agreed. No player is worth that kind of capital. Watson looks good. But he, until this year, has been on a good team. Very solid roster. Good weapons, good D, good running game. Does he look this good because of the team around him? Would he look that good and been a top 5ish QB, if he had been drafted by the Jets? Does He make that team look better than they actually are? I don't know the answers to these questions. We do know that despite this elite status he is being given, on a very solid team, he has won 1 playoff game. And this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything. No player is worth that kind of capital. I'd love to have him on the team, but not like that.

2019 his defense was ranked 27th in scoring, just one spot above ours this year, and he won 10 games and went to the divisional round where his offense put up 31 points. I'd say he made that team better, but there is only so much a QB can do.

The prior year, his first full year as a starter, his team was all around a good team.

2020, he lost his best weapon in a terrible trade, had very little run support, had a terrible defense, an offensive line that gave up one more pressure than ours did, lost his second best receiver in week 11 and had teammates apologizing to him for wasting the year he had after the final game of the season.

He instantly makes the Vikings a contender whether we have 3 1st round picks to spend on non-impact players like Bradbury, Hughes and Gladney over the next 3 seasons or not.

27th in scoring D, well that is one stat. Have any others? I ask because my memory, for what its worth, is that Houston's D until this year was considered one of the best, certainly upper level. I give him a pass for this year, other than the talk I've heard my whole life about how a true elite franchise guy lifts his team above all that other failure. I never really bought that, but it should apply to him too. Doesn't seem to though.

I'm not sure its justification to spend that crazy amount of capital on one player just because the Vikes aren't hitting on their first rounders recently. Unless you are reaching for that special can't miss (but almost always does) QB, missing on a first round pick should not be the norm.

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:00 pm

YikesVikes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:10 pm I like Watson but I don't get why anyone would be willing to give up 3 First rounders for him. That's a mistake. Watson is good but he isn't that good.

Agreed. No player is worth that kind of capital. Watson looks good. But he, until this year, has been on a good team. Very solid roster. Good weapons, good D, good running game. Does he look this good because of the team around him? Would he look that good and been a top 5ish QB, if he had been drafted by the Jets? Does He make that team look better than they actually are? I don't know the answers to these questions. We do know that despite this elite status he is being given, on a very solid team, he has won 1 playoff game. And this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything. No player is worth that kind of capital. I'd love to have him on the team, but not like that.

Not even close, dude.

He may have been on a playoff team, but Houston was not a good team. They were a dysfunctional organization with a great quarterback. I would go so far as to say he was 90% of the reason they were in the playoffs. Why do you think he wants out? Because he's surrounded by such great talent and coaching?

And your "this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything" comment is ridiculous. The man put up nearly 5,000 yards passing and 33 TDs on a team that was complete garbage. On a team that had just traded away his one viable receiving option in DeAndre Hopkins. On a team that was 31st in the NFL in rushing and would have finished dead last without Watson's rush yards. On a team with the 23rd-ranked offensive line. On a team that didn't protect Watson from that horrible O-line by running bootlegs or play action.

As much as it's possible to elevate a team to a 4-12 record, that's exactly what Deshaun Watson did.

We're gonna disagree all day long on whether he's worth two or even three first-round picks. As someone else said, look at our last three first-rounders, minus JJ who came from Buffalo's pick. Hughes, Bradbury and Gladney. You wouldn't take Deshaun Watson over that trio?

First-rounders are nothing but glizy, glamorous names until they prove themselves. They're rookies with a pedigree. Deshaun Watson is 25 years old, and he's on a career path that might land him in Canton. The Vikings haven't had a long-term solution at QB since Fran Tarkenton hung 'em up in 1978. To not seriously make a play for Deshaun Watson would be an insult to Vikings fans. They may not get him, but they should be in there trying.

Great post Kapp!

If Rick can unload Cousins and that contract, and pick up Watson in the process, I'd take back everything bad I've ever said about him!!

VikingLord wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:24 pm

VikeFanInEagleLand wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:11 pm Some Cousins trade rumors have started again regarding the 49ers. The rumors are stating that the 49ers are interested in Cousins if the Vikings are willing to talk. I for one would be interested in a deal similar to what Detroit just made....getting draft picks and then trying to trade draft picks to get Deshaun Watson.

I really don't think Cousins is going anywhere, mostly because Cousins isn't the problem. He's not what is holding back the Vikings. If he were, Spielman wouldn't have extended him in the first place.

Whatever incremental improvement might come from a guy like Watson will be more than offset by the cost of obtaining that improvement, which, because the QB play isn't the main problem, isn't going to materially change the fortunes of the Vikings any time soon anyway.

The Vikings need to fix their interior OL, their defensive line, and their DBs. That is going to go a lot farther towards getting them to the promised land of a Superbowl than blowing a huge chunk of draft capital to acquire yet another single player savior.

Haven't we seen enough proof over the years that those kinds of moves just don't work?

If the Vikings really want to get a franchise QB, how about do their homework in this upcoming draft? There are two guys who might slide a bit for various reasons who I think have a good chance of developing into outstanding pro QBs. One is Kyle Trask and the other is Jamie Newman. Both have some question marks, but either or both could be a longer-term answer at QB and both will come with reasonable initial cost, can sit and learn for a while while, and IMHO are as likely to pay dividends in the future where it matters as any QB the Vikings could get trading Cousins.

Why would you, on one hand, say Cousins isn't the problem, then on the other hand say the Vikings should do their homework and find a franchise quarterback in the draft? Sounds like you advocate replacing Cousins, even though he's not the problem.

Let's call it like it is. Deshaun Watson would be a significant, meteoric upgrade over not only Kirk Cousins, but ANYBODY in this draft, including Trevor Lawrence.

On a terrible, dysfunctional Houston team with no running game, no star power at receiver, and the 23rd-ranked O-line, all Watson did was throw for 4,800+ yards, 33 TDs, 7 INTs, 8.9 YPA and a passer rating of 112.4. Not only that, he can escape the rush and gain yards on the ground as well as any QB in the league. Put him on the same team as JJ and Dalvin Cook, and this offense improves by 25%, minimum.

We're not talking about a quarterback who "isn't the problem." We're talking about a top-5 QB in the league now and for the next 12 years. A guy whose current path puts him on the road to Canton. This is something Kirk Cousins can only dream of being. Something Trevor Lawrence might be someday IF he becomes as good as Watson. Something that — who is it? Jamie Newman? — has about a 0.01% chance of becoming. You can't win Super Bowls with QBs who "aren't the problem." Not with guys like Patrick Mahomes in the league.

Here's the formula.

Fire Spielman and Zimmer. Get a GM and a coach whose philosophies align with the modern NFL.

Next, trade for Watson. Give up the picks.

Finally, trade away veteran talent to recoup as much of the draft capital as possible. Anthony Barr for sure. I guarantee you somebody out there believes they can turn him into a 20-sack machine. Maybe you deal Adam Thielen, even though he's pretty much my favorite player. Give New England a call ... Belichick loves guys like Thielen. Maybe you even have to dangle Dalvin Cook or Eric Kendricks, if that's what it comes to. You can win without a stud 4-3 MLB, and you can win without a great running back. But with very few exceptions, you cannot win the SB without a great QB. Just don't trade Danielle Hunter because if you have a top-5 QB and a top-5 rush end, you're halfway home.

I know, I know. Most of you will think I'm nuts to even toss out names like Thielen, Cook and Kendricks. But this franchise is going nowhere. Mike Zimmer's 1990s win-with-defense philosophy doesn't work. Rick Spielman's "volume over quality" approach to the draft doesn't work. Building a spiffy stadium and support facility is nice, but it's never going to make the difference.

The only way this franchise turns around is if ownership sees that our current trajectory is so weak that Evel Knevel would die if he tried to jump a mud puddle using it. The Wilfs need to make changes. Big changes. Fire Spielman, fire Zimmer, hire people who understand the modern NFL, get Watson, keep Hunter, trade vets for picks. Contend by 2023.

You're welcome.

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:35 am

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 10:00 pm Agreed. No player is worth that kind of capital. Watson looks good. But he, until this year, has been on a good team. Very solid roster. Good weapons, good D, good running game. Does he look this good because of the team around him? Would he look that good and been a top 5ish QB, if he had been drafted by the Jets? Does He make that team look better than they actually are? I don't know the answers to these questions. We do know that despite this elite status he is being given, on a very solid team, he has won 1 playoff game. And this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything. No player is worth that kind of capital. I'd love to have him on the team, but not like that.

And your "this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything" comment is ridiculous. The man put up nearly 5,000 yards passing and 33 TDs on a team that was complete garbage. On a team that had just traded away his one viable receiving option in DeAndre Hopkins. On a team that was 31st in the NFL in rushing and would have finished dead last without Watson's rush yards. On a team with the 23rd-ranked offensive line. On a team that didn't protect Watson from that horrible O-line by running bootlegs or play action.

Very much could be said and has been said about Cousins in a few seasons of his. Few, if any, organizations out Redskins the
Redskins in dysfunction and ineptitude. He put up huge stats and pretty much single-handedly made the Skins competitive. All I'm saying is be careful what you mortgage everything for. It rarely works as expected. He is a good QB but 3 firsts and 2nds or thirds or whatever else gets thrown at one player is my definition of ridiculous.

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:07 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 8:24 am

2019 his defense was ranked 27th in scoring, just one spot above ours this year, and he won 10 games and went to the divisional round where his offense put up 31 points. I'd say he made that team better, but there is only so much a QB can do.

The prior year, his first full year as a starter, his team was all around a good team.

2020, he lost his best weapon in a terrible trade, had very little run support, had a terrible defense, an offensive line that gave up one more pressure than ours did, lost his second best receiver in week 11 and had teammates apologizing to him for wasting the year he had after the final game of the season.

He instantly makes the Vikings a contender whether we have 3 1st round picks to spend on non-impact players like Bradbury, Hughes and Gladney over the next 3 seasons or not.

27th in scoring D, well that is one stat. Have any others? I ask because my memory, for what its worth, is that Houston's D until this year was considered one of the best, certainly upper level. I give him a pass for this year, other than the talk I've heard my whole life about how a true elite franchise guy lifts his team above all that other failure. I never really bought that, but it should apply to him too. Doesn't seem to though.

I'm not sure its justification to spend that crazy amount of capital on one player just because the Vikes aren't hitting on their first rounders recently. Unless you are reaching for that special can't miss (but almost always does) QB, missing on a first round pick should not be the norm.

People see JJ Watt on a defense and assume it is good. 2019 and 2020 prove that isn't true. I am not sure what more than scoring you need, as scoring is the thing that impacts the final result of the game, but they were also 31st in yards given up per drive, 28th in TOP, 25th in TDs per drive, 25th in punts per drive, 32nd in 3 and outs, 32nd in TDs per red zone appearance. They were a really bad defense but you didn't hear about it because their QB hid that flaw until the final game of their season when KC put up 51 on them.

The only stat they were above average in is TO per drive.

PFF grades for units are stupid, but for what it is worth they had them as the 24th best unit in 2019.

Fat Stupid Loser wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 10:16 am

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 02, 2021 9:35 am

And your "this year with a crap team, he certainly didn't elevate anything" comment is ridiculous. The man put up nearly 5,000 yards passing and 33 TDs on a team that was complete garbage. On a team that had just traded away his one viable receiving option in DeAndre Hopkins. On a team that was 31st in the NFL in rushing and would have finished dead last without Watson's rush yards. On a team with the 23rd-ranked offensive line. On a team that didn't protect Watson from that horrible O-line by running bootlegs or play action.

Very much could be said and has been said about Cousins in a few seasons of his. Few, if any, organizations out Redskins the
Redskins in dysfunction and ineptitude. He put up huge stats and pretty much single-handedly made the Skins competitive. All I'm saying is be careful what you mortgage everything for. It rarely works as expected. He is a good QB but 3 firsts and 2nds or thirds or whatever else gets thrown at one player is my definition of ridiculous.

Competitive? 9, 8 and 7 wins is competitive?

Raz wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 6:41 pm

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 1:32 pm Just read the same.



All I can say is, “Please, football gods, don’t tease us.”

We all know that Deshaun Watson is available. If the Vikings could somehow unload Cousins on the Niners, what would you be willing to give up for Watson?

I’ll start the bidding at first-rounders in 2021 and 2022, a second-rounder in 2023, and a third this year. Knowing that it’s not likely that Houston would take this offer, I’d be willing to up the ante, but that’s where I’d start.

What say you all?

Only thing that comes to my mind with this is Hershel Walker

Come on, man.

This isn't close to the Walker trade. We gave up three firsts, three seconds, a third, a sixth, and four players to get Walker. In return, we got Walker, two thirds, a fifth, and a tenth. Plus we had to send Darrin Nelson to San Diego.

Put another way, in draft points, we gave up roughly 4,500 draft points and got back about 415. More than 10-to-1. That doesn't count the players involved. In terms of the player swap, the five players we lost were probably equal to what we ended up getting in Walker, who never had even a single 1,000-yard season with the Vikings, and only two in his entire 12-year career. Of course, the Vikings had no way of knowing that at the time. He'd just come off a 1,500-yard season.

Let's look at the Walker trade in a different way. What we gave up would be equivalent to giving up the top pick in the draft AND the No. 7 pick, plus five quality players ... for a single second-round pick and Herschel Walker. It's a tossup between this trade and the Ricky Williams trade for worst in NFL history. It turned Dallas from a 1-15 laughingstock into a 3-time Super Bowl winner.

Now let's look at the equivalent value in acquiring Deshaun Watson for 3 first-rounders.

This would be akin to paying about 4,000 draft points, assuming the Vikings struggle at first and get better in years 2 and 3. Yes, that's a steep price. But Watson himself was worth 1,200 points at the time he was drafted with the No. 12 pick, and he's turned out to be better than every player drafted ahead of him with the exception of Patrick Mahomes. With four years of experience under his belt and three Pro Bowl selections, his current value is at least 2,000-3,000 draft points (the No. 3 pick or higher). Put that against the 4,000 we're giving up, and a 4:3 ratio is pretty solid, especially compared to the 10:1 we were on the wrong side of with Herschel Walker.