Vikings Message Board.Com

J. Kapp 11 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:55 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 am

He didnt direct that comment at you specifically. But if you actually watch Marcus Peters, he is not a good CB. Yeah sure, an INT helps, but giving up 2 TDs in the process actually hurts your team. Not help it. He's given up the most yards of any CB since 2015 (and that was before this year where he was even worse). He has 22 interceptions in his career but has given up 21 TDs (as of week 9 this year...couldnt find any stats on him from weeks 10-16). So chances are, he's given up more TDs since 2015 than he's gotten INTs. I believe it's around 24 TDs given up. That is downright pathetic. And it's more TDs than any CB has given up by a HUGE margin in that time span. No less he is a cancer. I wouldnt give up a 2031 7th round pick for the guy. He's a loud mouth cancer that hurts his team way more than he ever helps it.

He's also zero help in run support, which contributes to his team being dead last in the league in YPC allowed.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:08 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Mon Jan 28, 2019 11:34 am A team needs CBs and many of them. People want to go the D Green route and play anybody, like WR R Tate, at CB. That won't work you need 4 good ones and a couple of them need to pick off passes. We lack that big time. Huge hole on our team still. But we do have a couple average + players in Rhodes and Waynes. And Hill and Hughes look to have potential. But we need some ball hawks badly. If ones available at 18 that needs to be the pick.

Maybe I'm old school on this, but I think great teams are built from their offensive and defensive line play, and as the Vikes stand today, the offensive line is not nearly good enough. The impact of that is doubled when the starting QB isn't very mobile and/or doesn't feel and escape pressure very well. Offensive line has to be the priority this offseason I think.

One other comment on the ballhawking CB - those guys are great to have, and I generally agree with you that if a CB that simply can't be passed up is there when #19 rolls around Spielman would probably have to take him, but the defensive philosophy of the head coach and defensive coordinator can neutralize those skills. I don't see Zimmer advocating a very aggressive philosophy when it comes to his defenses. He likes a strong, disciplined pass rush that forces the ball out early and inaccurately, and he likes his cover guys to play tight and take away obvious passing options to help force those errant throws. When INTs do happen for the Vikings, they are typically coming from an errant throw rather than a DB or LB jumping a route or showing anticipation. Not to say the defensive backs and LBs aren't studying their opponents or the gameplan is poor - Zimmer would rather just play percentages and fundamentals over trying for splash plays. The difference is like the guy in baseball who swings for on base percentage versus the guy who swings to clear the bases. The on base guy is probably going to have the better average, while the home run guy is going to show up on the highlight reels more often.

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:24 am

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Jan 29, 2019 4:08 pm

Maybe I'm old school on this, but I think great teams are built from their offensive and defensive line play, and as the Vikes stand today, the offensive line is not nearly good enough. The impact of that is doubled when the starting QB isn't very mobile and/or doesn't feel and escape pressure very well. Offensive line has to be the priority this offseason I think.

One other comment on the ballhawking CB - those guys are great to have, and I generally agree with you that if a CB that simply can't be passed up is there when #19 rolls around Spielman would probably have to take him, but the defensive philosophy of the head coach and defensive coordinator can neutralize those skills. I don't see Zimmer advocating a very aggressive philosophy when it comes to his defenses. He likes a strong, disciplined pass rush that forces the ball out early and inaccurately, and he likes his cover guys to play tight and take away obvious passing options to help force those errant throws. When INTs do happen for the Vikings, they are typically coming from an errant throw rather than a DB or LB jumping a route or showing anticipation. Not to say the defensive backs and LBs aren't studying their opponents or the gameplan is poor - Zimmer would rather just play percentages and fundamentals over trying for splash plays. The difference is like the guy in baseball who swings for on base percentage versus the guy who swings to clear the bases. The on base guy is probably going to have the better average, while the home run guy is going to show up on the highlight reels more often.

It's not old school. My confusion is with the grading of an offensive line. The Colts had a great OL according to the media graders like PFF. They looked horrible in the playoffs and were beaten into the ground. Maybe a bad game? The Texans had the worst and made the playoffs. We also need DL help badly. Griff is done and too much CAP and too much other stuff, Joseph can't do it anymore and Richardson was a one year rent. We need 3 just to replace the walk/cast offs. Yes having a dominate OL would be a good thing. But I'm not even sure what that is anymore or how it's graded or how it's built.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:16 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:24 am

It's not old school. My confusion is with the grading of an offensive line. The Colts had a great OL according to the media graders like PFF. They looked horrible in the playoffs and were beaten into the ground. Maybe a bad game? The Texans had the worst and made the playoffs. We also need DL help badly. Griff is done and too much CAP and too much other stuff, Joseph can't do it anymore and Richardson was a one year rent. We need 3 just to replace the walk/cast offs. Yes having a dominate OL would be a good thing. But I'm not even sure what that is anymore or how it's graded or how it's built.

I guess I don’t understand where you’re coming from with some of your stances. You’re questioning our CBs and DL. It’s literally the two strongest spots on this team. I don’t think we need a “dominant” OL but we need an average to above average one. I don’t think Griff is done. I also don’t think Joseph can’t do it anymore. As for Richardson, I don’t necessarily think he’s a one year rent either. Idk, just some odd takes I guess

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:16 pm

I guess I don’t understand where you’re coming from with some of your stances. You’re questioning our CBs and DL. It’s literally the two strongest spots on this team. I don’t think we need a “dominant” OL but we need an average to above average one. I don’t think Griff is done. I also don’t think Joseph can’t do it anymore. As for Richardson, I don’t necessarily think he’s a one year rent either. Idk, just some odd takes I guess

Yes our D line and CBs are strong I agree with that. We had many sacks but racked up many in a few games. I think 10 in one game. That's good no question about that. However I don't think it's enough when we face strong offensive teams. We need to stop them a little more than what we have done if we want a super bowl. Rodgers always gives us problems. Even in the tie we couldn't hold them to 14 or 17 points. Pick him off 3 or 4 times and we win. And I also agree a team needs at least an average offensive line. Perhaps the pieces are there and injuries played a part. Our center was a joke and probably the worst in the NFL. Not sure how they thought he was a starter. The guy was pushed all over the field. To me that's the first thing to fix on the OL but I'm not sure if a rookie can come in and play average. It's possible I guess. And I don't see how a guard can help a center if the guy can't even take the initial blow on. Perhaps my stances are a little odd and I'm not getting it and don't understand it.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:11 am

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:06 am

Yes our D line and CBs are strong I agree with that. We had many sacks but racked up many in a few games. I think 10 in one game. That's good no question about that. However I don't think it's enough when we face strong offensive teams. We need to stop them a little more than what we have done if we want a super bowl. Rodgers always gives us problems. Even in the tie we couldn't hold them to 14 or 17 points. Pick him off 3 or 4 times and we win. And I also agree a team needs at least an average offensive line. Perhaps the pieces are there and injuries played a part. Our center was a joke and probably the worst in the NFL. Not sure how they thought he was a starter. The guy was pushed all over the field. To me that's the first thing to fix on the OL but I'm not sure if a rookie can come in and play average. It's possible I guess. And I don't see how a guard can help a center if the guy can't even take the initial blow on. Perhaps my stances are a little odd and I'm not getting it and don't understand it.

Dude, when was the last time Aaron Rodgers threw 3 or 4 picks in ANY game? He's thrown double digit picks twice in 11 years as a starter. Once his first year starting he threw 13 and once his 3rd year starting he threw 11. But you somehow think we're going to pick him off 3-4 times in one game? He threw 2 whole INTs this year. Two. To be honest, who cares about Aaron Rodgers? He's been to and won 1 SB in 11 years. But he's labeled "the best QB in the game"? No less they havent won the division in what? 3-4 years? I think if anything, we give Aaron Rodgers problems.

As for Elflein, he didnt play well this year. But prior to that, he was actually a pretty good starting center and helped our OL a lot last year. The last thing we need to replace is center. Outside of him and O'Neill, everyone else needs to be replaced.

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:47 pm
That's what I'm getting at. Go beyond. That's how you get to the show. But remove the picks and he still puts up points. He did it week 2. We can't allow that. As I stated hold him to 14 or 17 points. Is that impossible? Especially with a good secondary. I picked a bad example because he is a one man show.

Don't know when Elf was considered pretty good. Ask a fan about centers his name won't come up. And he regressed badly after that rookie year. Maybe he will rebound but who knows.

O'neil was only a rookie and should have sat and learned. But he certainly wasn't a good player. He might be. But who knows. He's still a few years away IMO. But he does appear to have a bright future.

That's the thing with most rookies. They will struggle. Will H for the Giants looked like a total flop early but made some improvement from a flop. But to what? Just a body now. What I'm getting at is plugging in 2 rookie guards might not be the upgrade some think. Unless you get a Randal Mac and they don't come along very often. But anyway something needs to change. I'm not an expert and I understand that. Perhaps my critism against some players or group of players is wrong.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:36 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:47 pm
That's what I'm getting at. Go beyond. That's how you get to the show. But remove the picks and he still puts up points. He did it week 2. We can't allow that. As I stated hold him to 14 or 17 points. Is that impossible? Especially with a good secondary. I picked a bad example because he is a one man show.

Do you really want to know how many 3+ INT games Aaron Rodgers has had since 2010? One. And it was last year when he came back for one game at the end of the year from the broken collarbone (clearly not 100%). He threw 3 INTs that game. ONE time in 8 years and 126 games! We could put the 3 best CBs and 2 best safeties in the NFL on our defense and we arent picking him off 3 or 4 times. That's not how you get to the show. You dont need to pick Aaron Rodgers off 3 or 4 times to get to the promised land. At this point, this division has came down to the Bears and us. So I could care less about Aaron Rodgers or how many times we pick him off.

And for the record, the last 5 times we've played Aaron Rodgers (actually played him, not even counting last year when we played against Hundley), we have held him to 17 points or less 3 out of 5 times. So I also have no clue where you are going with that argument.

Don't know when Elf was considered pretty good. Ask a fan about centers his name won't come up. And he regressed badly after that rookie year. Maybe he will rebound but who knows.

lol how many fans talk about centers? Not just ours but any in general? Yeah he regressed this year however he was also coming off a major injury. As a rookie, he was an excellent pass blocking center. He didnt allow a sack in 7 of his first 8 games. He wasnt great as a run blocker but for a 3rd round rookie, the way he was pass blocking, I'm sure not going to complain. And I sure wouldnt be on here saying he is the first guy we have to replace when he's going into his 3rd year and was coming off a major injury. That's not even realistic if you ask me.

O'neil was only a rookie and should have sat and learned. But he certainly wasn't a good player. He might be. But who knows. He's still a few years away IMO. But he does appear to have a bright future.

Dude what? He wasnt a good player? He didnt allow a single sack all year and played 531 pass blocking snaps. There has been 3 tackles to ever do that in their rookie season: Ryan Clady and Joe Thomas. Brian O'Neill was excellent this year and a very promising offensive tackle. Saying he should've sat just makes zero sense to me.

That's the thing with most rookies. They will struggle. Will H for the Giants looked like a total flop early but made some improvement from a flop. But to what? Just a body now. What I'm getting at is plugging in 2 rookie guards might not be the upgrade some think. Unless you get a Randal Mac and they don't come along very often. But anyway something needs to change. I'm not an expert and I understand that. Perhaps my critism against some players or group of players is wrong.

I'm not saying draft 2 rookie guards. Go look at my mock offseason I just wrote up. I said a FA OG and a high pick OG. We dont need Randall McDaniel to make this line good. You're getting after Elflein but he also had the two worst guards you could ask for on each side of him. Last year he had Berger and Easton. Much better than what he had this year. Offensive line isnt about one or two players, it's about the whole unit and surrounding your good young players with good veterans. For example, you have a solid RT in O'Neill and a good center like Elflein so put a good veteran right there in between them. That right there takes care of center and our entire right side. To go out and replace our young center but shying away from guards or left tackle, make very little sense for this team.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:06 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:36 pm

Do you really want to know how many 3+ INT games Aaron Rodgers has had since 2010? One. And it was last year when he came back for one game at the end of the year from the broken collarbone (clearly not 100%). He threw 3 INTs that game. ONE time in 8 years and 126 games! We could put the 3 best CBs and 2 best safeties in the NFL on our defense and we arent picking him off 3 or 4 times. That's not how you get to the show. You dont need to pick Aaron Rodgers off 3 or 4 times to get to the promised land. At this point, this division has came down to the Bears and us. So I could care less about Aaron Rodgers or how many times we pick him off.

And for the record, the last 5 times we've played Aaron Rodgers (actually played him, not even counting last year when we played against Hundley), we have held him to 17 points or less 3 out of 5 times. So I also have no clue where you are going with that argument.



lol how many fans talk about centers? Not just ours but any in general? Yeah he regressed this year however he was also coming off a major injury. As a rookie, he was an excellent pass blocking center. He didnt allow a sack in 7 of his first 8 games. He wasnt great as a run blocker but for a 3rd round rookie, the way he was pass blocking, I'm sure not going to complain. And I sure wouldnt be on here saying he is the first guy we have to replace when he's going into his 3rd year and was coming off a major injury. That's not even realistic if you ask me.



Dude what? He wasnt a good player? He didnt allow a single sack all year and played 531 pass blocking snaps. There has been 3 tackles to ever do that in their rookie season: Ryan Clady and Joe Thomas. Brian O'Neill was excellent this year and a very promising offensive tackle. Saying he should've sat just makes zero sense to me.



I'm not saying draft 2 rookie guards. Go look at my mock offseason I just wrote up. I said a FA OG and a high pick OG. We dont need Randall McDaniel to make this line good. You're getting after Elflein but he also had the two worst guards you could ask for on each side of him. Last year he had Berger and Easton. Much better than what he had this year. Offensive line isnt about one or two players, it's about the whole unit and surrounding your good young players with good veterans. For example, you have a solid RT in O'Neill and a good center like Elflein so put a good veteran right there in between them. That right there takes care of center and our entire right side. To go out and replace our young center but shying away from guards or left tackle, make very little sense for this team.

What if we had just kept Sully? I honestly think this team is in the playoffs this year with him at center.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:49 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:06 pm

What if we had just kept Sully? I honestly think this team is in the playoffs this year with him at center.

You think we’re in the playoffs if we had a different center? I’m not sure why center is all of the sudden the big issue on this OL. But I can bet money that Sully at center makes very little difference for this team. Not saying PFF is the end all be all but he was the #29 center according to pff. Elflein was #38. There wasn’t a huge difference. And definitely not enough for a playoff spot. No less Elflein is only in his 2nd year. And had a promising rookie year.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 8:37 am

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:49 am

You think we’re in the playoffs if we had a different center? I’m not sure why center is all of the sudden the big issue on this OL. But I can bet money that Sully at center makes very little difference for this team. Not saying PFF is the end all be all but he was the #29 center according to pff. Elflein was #38. There wasn’t a huge difference. And definitely not enough for a playoff spot. No less Elflein is only in his 2nd year. And had a promising rookie year.

I think Sully makes a huge difference in the run game and despite what PFF says, his ability to call protections more than makes up for whatever they graded him low on. Those two things get us at least one more win, or even break the tie in GB, making us a playoff team. Not a good playoff team, but a playoff team.

VikingLord wrote: ↑Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:02 pm The offensive line was just off all year. When your best and most consistent player in a position group is a 2nd round rookie who most projected as a multi-year project coming out, you know you have big problems.

The real question isn't about focusing on how to stop Rodgers or any particular QB. The defense has question marks for sure and will need to find answers for those, but the more I look at the offensive line, *especially* in the context of the QB the Vikings are now hooked to for the next 2 seasons, it is just clear as day that Spielman and Zimmer have to get that position group fixed heading into next season. O'Neill is the only guy on that line I trust, and I say that knowing he over-performed expectations last year and he might come back down to earth a bit this season. He also might improve, but he's a 2nd year player and its fairly common for 2nd year starters to regress a bit as they put more on tape and have to evolve. The rest of the OL? I don't trust any of the guys on the roster. Maybe some just had a bad or inconsistent season. Elflein might have struggled a bit after his injury and could come back strong this year. But I don't trust any of the other guys. Maybe it's coaching. Maybe the death of Sparano affected them more than we realize. Maybe it's a combination of things, some of which just aren't obvious to the average fan.

What should be obvious to the average fan is the Vikings braintrust needs to address the OL and they've got a single offseason to do it. If it isn't fixed this offseason and the result is another subpar season (and by subpar I mean not just missing the playoffs entirely, but an early exit as well), both Spielman and Zimmer would have to be at serious risk of being let go. The owners have invested pretty much everything they've been asked to invest in the team. They have a beautiful new stadium, some of the best training facilities in the league now, and a still-rabid and hungry fan base that wants a Superbowl as bad as any fan base could want one at this point. They've got talent up and down the team on both sides of the ball. It's time to put up or shut up for the braintrust of this team, or in my view the Wilfs are more than justified in going in a new direction.

One area of focus when considering OL players, be they draft choices, FAs, or trade prospects, should be suitability as run blockers. That may seem counter intuitive when Cousins needs time to throw, but I think the Patriots demonstrated the value of a respectable and consistent running game this season, especially later in the season and in the playoffs. That team has about the most immobile QB in the league now in Brady, but because they could credibly and consistently run, teams had a hard time teeing off on him as the Pats found themselves in manageable 2nd and 3rd down-distance situations. So that is why for potential OL draft picks I like a guy like Cody Ford who is going to be an effective run blocker at guard out of the gate. He can pass block too, but he's going to be able to move interior defenders and that is, in my opinion, what the Vikes need more than anything right now. Cook was pretty effective without a lot of big holes to run through - imagine what he could do with better blocking in front of him. And if you have that explosive running threat on every down, as a defense you can't afford to just pin your ears back and go after the QB. You have to respect the run threat and that can help protect the QB as much or more than great pass blockers.

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:03 am
That's a great post. Very informative. Thing is IMO rookies will struggle coming out of the gate which could end a players season. Many teams need OL help and I don't see a great G dropping to our spot. No doubt great players do drop sometimes. Maybe losing our OL corodinator had as much to do with the problems as the players did. But rebuilding the OL in one off season is a very tall task.

As for CBs.. I know ours are rated as one of the best but against the top teams they seem to struggle. I watched the Pats in the SB and they covered at an unbelievable level. Every WR was cover closely. Even when they lost there best player it didn't even matter. Are they that deep with stars or is the coaching that great. I don't know the answer. But it would be great if we can get to the level of coverage that the Pats displayed. Maybe it's impossible or near impossible.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 1:22 pm

CharVike wrote: ↑Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:03 am
That's a great post. Very informative. Thing is IMO rookies will struggle coming out of the gate which could end a players season. Many teams need OL help and I don't see a great G dropping to our spot. No doubt great players do drop sometimes. Maybe losing our OL corodinator had as much to do with the problems as the players did. But rebuilding the OL in one off season is a very tall task.

There are no "guards" projected to go in the first round. I said before, it's a tackle heavy class and some of them might make the switch to guard. But as of right now, every first round offensive lineman was a tackle in college. Including Cody Ford. So as for us landing a good offensive lineman, we should be right in position to do so at 18. There should be plenty of options.

As for CBs.. I know ours are rated as one of the best but against the top teams they seem to struggle. I watched the Pats in the SB and they covered at an unbelievable level. Every WR was cover closely. Even when they lost there best player it didn't even matter. Are they that deep with stars or is the coaching that great. I don't know the answer. But it would be great if we can get to the level of coverage that the Pats displayed. Maybe it's impossible or near impossible.

Again, I really dont understand where you're coming from with this. As for the Pats covering well vs. the Rams, yeah, it was a great performance. However, I think it was a better game plan than coverage. I'd love to see a stat on how many times BB blitzed Goff. It was a lot and Goff crapped his pants. NE did the same thing to us when we played them. Overall on the season, the Pats defense was pretty porous when it came to defending the pass. They were 22nd in total pass defense which isnt very good by any means.

As for our CBs, what top teams, outside of LA (which a lot fell on Barr's shoulders) did our CBs struggle with??

Looking at our schedule lets say the "top teams" we played were Chicago (x2), New Orleans, Seattle, New England, Philly and we'll even include the almighty Aaron Rodgers in there (x2).

-The tie game vs GB, Rodgers was held in check all game. Didnt break 200 yards until the 4th quarter. Threw for 281 on the day which included overtime and 1 TD. Solid game by our CBs

-The Eagles game Wentz threw for 311, 94 of them coming on the final two drives of the game when we were up on them by quite a bit. Before that, he had 217 yards and no TDs. Solid game by our CBs

-The Saints game Brees was held to the lowest passing yards of his career with 120 and "threw" 1 TD (a shovel pass on the goal line that I could have thrown). This was all WITHOUT Xavier Rhodes. An elite type game by our CBs.

-The first Chicago game, Trubisky threw for 165 yards, 1 TD and 2 INTs. Another excellent game by our CBs

-The 2nd Packers game, the almighty Aaron Rodgers threw for 198 yards and 1 TD. Another elite type game by our CBs

-The NE game, Brady threw for 311, 1 TD and 1 INT. 92 of those yards went to James White which has nothing to do with our DBs. We shut their WRs down for the most part. Gave up a deeper TD to Gordon but outside of that, he did nothing. Edelman had 3 catches for 25 yards and Gronk had 3 catches for 26 yards. Good game by our CBs

-The Seattle game, Russell Wilson had 72 yards passing. Yeah....72, 0 TDs and 1 INT. Elite game by our CBs

-And the final Chicago game, Trubisky threw for 163 yards and 0 TDs. Excellent game by our CBs.


So again, remind me where our CBs didnt show up against top teams?? Our DBs "allowed" SEVEN touchdown passes in 8 games against "top teams". 2 TDs which came late in the 4th vs Philly when we had a big lead and another that was a shovel pass vs NO. So essentially our CBs legitimately gave up 4 true TD passes in 8 "big" games. And shut down just about every QB they came across in those games. That isn't just good play from your CBs. That is elite play from your CBs. And yeah, NE lost Chung during the SB....we lost Rhodes vs one of the best passing offenses in recent memory in New Orleans and held Brees to his lowest yards ever in his career. I've never heard anyone being upset with a CB group that is this good and this deep. We dont need another corner. And I sure hope we dont spend another first round pick on one. This group is as good as it gets and is very deep. Simple as that.