Vikings Message Board.Com

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:50 pm Either way, time to hop off the Teddy train. He's "back to full health" and still isnt a starter anywhere. If he was so good, teams would have pushed harder to sign him outside of just the Jets. Teams were "interested" but nobody threw any offers out there except NY.....weird.

Cliff wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:11 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 1:50 pm Either way, time to hop off the Teddy train. He's "back to full health" and still isnt a starter anywhere. If he was so good, teams would have pushed harder to sign him outside of just the Jets. Teams were "interested" but nobody threw any offers out there except NY.....weird.

Not that I disagree with you completely but the Jets traded Teddy to NO for a 3rd round pick. He's not starting because Brees is in front of him. Not that a 3rd rounder is an end all be all pick or anything but other teams were certainly interested and if he becomes a free agent next year more teams will as well, you can count on it.

To compare the compensation teams give up for a backup; Trevor Siemian (and a 7th round pick) was traded to the Vikings for a 5th rounder.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:39 pm
Obviously Teddy wont start in New Orleans but there are a lot of teams out there that could use QB help and could offer the Jets a trade to make him their starter. But nobody did. The jets also came out and said they were looking for good compensation for Teddy. Which drove the price up for him

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:46 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:39 pm
Obviously Teddy wont start in New Orleans but there are a lot of teams out there that could use QB help and could offer the Jets a trade to make him their starter. But nobody did. The jets also came out and said they were looking for good compensation for Teddy. Which drove the price up for him

What team was looking for a starter when the Jets were looking to trade him?

There are a number of teams looking for someone now, but before week 1, teams were pretty much set at QB.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:39 pm In free agency this year, the only team that made him an offer was the Jets.

And I hope Teddy would fetch more than a 5th rounder. Injury or not he was a first round pick.

Siemian was horrid in Denver last year. And was an unknown/7th round pick. Obviously Teddy wont start in New Orleans but there are a lot of teams out there that could use QB help and could offer the Jets a trade to make him their starter. But nobody did.

The jets also came out and said they were looking for good compensation for Teddy. Which drove the price up for him

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:58 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 2:46 pm

What team was looking for a starter when the Jets were looking to trade him?

There are a number of teams looking for someone now, but before week 1, teams were pretty much set at QB.

There were rookies and below average vets on teams. Cardinals, Jets, Cleveland, Buffalo, Denver, Jacksonville, Miami and the Giants. All those teams had question mark starters or rookies that were also question marks. Any of them could have went after Teddy.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:30 am

UKno1VIKING wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 6:43 am

It's an interesting take that the players would perform better for Teddy or Case. The rumblings coming out from the team, are that Cousins is very much respected already. Listening to Diggs spout off about him sounds genuine enough. I imagine that is why he was given the role of leading the pre-game huddle (and wow do i enjoy listening to him do that).
We can only assume about his popularity, one way or another. But there's no doubt, as far as talent is concerned, he is a big upgrade.
And for me, we wouldn't have 5 wins without him. Especially when the D wasn't firing. Watching him lead this offence, with the D seemingly sorting themselves out, is an exciting prospect to say the least.

Let's examine the wins so far, and you tell me where our 11-5 and 13-3 QBs wouldn't have won.

SF - defense held them to 16 and SF has one of the worst defenses in football. Tell me why Case or Teddy couldn't win that?
GB - 2015 Teddy and Case probably don't keep this game close. .5 games for Cousins.
Buf - The offense lost us this game. 10 Pts off of turnovers and no pts until garbage time for the Vikings. Mostly because the line was playing bad, but Cousins also struggled to avoid the rush and played poorly. -1 win for Cousins.
LA - Defense played bad, offense played great. Still a loss.
Eagles - Eagles only managed 14 pts until garbage time. Case or Teddy could have easily won that game.
AZ The worst team in football
Jets - The second worst team in football
Saints - Kirk didn't play well in that game and it was a loss. I won't claim Teddy or Case would have won it, though.
Detroit.- I could have QB'd the team to a win in that game.

Yea, Kirk is having a huge impact so far.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:45 pm

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:58 pm

There were rookies and below average vets on teams. Cardinals, Jets, Cleveland, Buffalo, Denver, Jacksonville, Miami and the Giants. All those teams had question mark starters or rookies that were also question marks. Any of them could have went after Teddy.

This is revisionist history. The message sent to the team and rookie QB if you trade a 2nd for Teddy before the season is not a good one. AZ, Buff, Cleveland were not going to do that for a one year rental after giving up a high 1st for a QB already that year. What kind of football sense does that make? Denver was completely sold on Keenum (lulz), as was Jacksonville who just paid Bortles. Miami and the Giants were not looking to upgrade their QB at that time.

A number of those teams wish Teddy were available now, but back then there just was not a market for starting QBs.

UKno1VIKING wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:39 am

The argument you provided isn't relevant. Because one man does not make a team. Although QB is a crucial position, you cannot based teams wins/losses on the QB. As there are other factors. For example, you put in any QB for the Bills game, the Vikings don't win. The whole team weren't at the races, whatever the reason (not ready/underestimating the opponent/Everson problem).

From a small 9 game sample, for me this is the best QB Minnesota have seen since the '09 season.
If were going to pick through the games though, there has not been one sub-par performance this season. The worst game coming in week 1 probably. I think he missed a few deep shots in that game.
And you must have extremely high standards if you thought Cousins had a bad game against NO. He had a 75% completion percentage, for 359 yards 2 TD's and 1 INT. What did you think of Brees' performance if those are the standards you require?

If you are looking at this season, comparing the two ex-QB's to Cousins, and suggesting they would have done a better/similar job to Cousins, that's fine. It's a matter of opinion.
However, you mention their individual records for the seasons that they played (11-5, 13-3). In my opinion, if we had Kirk last season, we don't have to go to Philly for the championship game. They come to us.
Keenum had a fine season. But lets not kid ourselves. If Keenum had our defense from weeks 1 to 5 of this season, he's not making the same impact. He was serviceable, and able to complement the Defense enough to provide a winning season. Cousins had zero help from the other side of the ball for half of this season. With the same pieces on Offence.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:54 am

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:45 pm

This is revisionist history. The message sent to the team and rookie QB if you trade a 2nd for Teddy before the season is not a good one. AZ, Buff, Cleveland were not going to do that for a one year rental after giving up a high 1st for a QB already that year. What kind of football sense does that make? Denver was completely sold on Keenum (lulz), as was Jacksonville who just paid Bortles. Miami and the Giants were not looking to upgrade their QB at that time.

A number of those teams wish Teddy were available now, but back then there just was not a market for starting QBs.

Not sure who mentioned a 2nd rounder? Arizona paid Bradford $15 million for 1 year. Tyrod got $30.5 million for 2 years. And Buffalo lost out on everyone and settled for McCarron. And again my point, Keenum, Bortles, Tannehill and Manning are all giant question marks. If these GMs werent thinking that, then they just arent good GMs. Keenum has been inconsistent his whole career, Bortles was a dumpster fire last year let alone this year, Tannehill hasnt played a full season since 2015 (same as Teddy) and Eli has been in a rapid decline for at least a few years now. So dont sit here and tell me these teams didnt need a QB or AT LEAST insurance if they flop (which was very possible and actually happened to every single one of them this year). Keenum has been bad, Bortles drove the Jags into the dirt, Tannehill (once again) is hurt, and the Giants are 2-7 and Eli has struggled immensely.

There was a market for QBs. Maybe not day 1 starting QBs, but at the very least, insurance for QBs that have had a history of failing. Any of these teams could have went after Teddy. Instead they went with guys like Brock Osweiler, Davis Webb, Sam Bradford, Mike Glennon, Tyrod Taylor and AJ McCarron. They could have went with Teddy if they wanted to. He wasnt asking for nearly as much as Bradford or Tyrod. Mike Glennon is making almost as much as Teddy on a per year basis.

But for some reason, these teams didnt go after him. And if they did, it sure wasnt that hard given he ended up taking a $6 million deal. Matching a 1 year/$6 million for a backup QB/insurance plan is pretty darn cheap. So there must have been some reasons behind not pursuing him. 1.) Obviously the knee 2.) He hasnt played since 2015 3.) Was he really that good even when healthy?

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:41 pm
When Teddy hit the open market, yes there were concerns about his knee and obviously teams were scared away by those concerns. Teddy was signed by a QB needy team though, and was given a contract that was 6 million at its base, but could have been a lot more if he played and started. Once it became apparent the knee wasn’t as big of a concern as people thought (after Darnold had already been drafted), Teddy was traded for a 3rd round pick. Meanwhile, AJ was traded for a 5th, Webb was cut after no one wanted to trade for him, no team had interest in Taylor after Baker took over, and Bradford is available for free with no takers. You talk about Jacksonville, NY and Miami looking for a QB, but the reality is, before Tannehill went down to an injury, before Bortles reverted to his pre-2017 self and before it became clear Eli was toast, those teams felt pretty confident in their guy. I mean the Giants had a shot at a number of QBs with their first pick, Jacksonville didn’t draft a QB until the 6th and Miami didn’t draft one at all. Not to mention, even if those teams were nervous about their starters, what NFL team wants to spend a 2nd (assuming they have to outbid the Saints) on a guy to breathe down the neck of their highly paid starting QB? Go look at the reports out of those camps during pre-season and tell me which one of those teams was shopping for a starting QB.

Teddy was a one year rental and it makes perfect sense that a team like NO’s, who correctly felt they had a SB caliber roster, would trade for Teddy as insurance at the QB spot for one year. They had a QB who was at an age most QBs are breaking down or have already broken down, and felt Teddy could come in and keep their SB hopes alive if Brees did break down. He was also a QB so good, there was zero chance he would feel threatened by Teddy being on the bench. I tell you what though, if they do manage to re-sign Teddy to take over as the QBOTF, and he plays well for them, that will really suck. Any other team and it wouldn’t bother me that much, but I would hate for the Vikings to even indirectly help that franchise.

Pondering Her Percy wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:42 pm

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:41 pm
When Teddy hit the open market, yes there were concerns about his knee and obviously teams were scared away by those concerns. Teddy was signed by a QB needy team though, and was given a contract that was 6 million at its base, but could have been a lot more if he played and started. Once it became apparent the knee wasn’t as big of a concern as people thought (after Darnold had already been drafted), Teddy was traded for a 3rd round pick. Meanwhile, AJ was traded for a 5th, Webb was cut after no one wanted to trade for him, no team had interest in Taylor after Baker took over, and Bradford is available for free with no takers. You talk about Jacksonville, NY and Miami looking for a QB, but the reality is, before Tannehill went down to an injury, before Bortles reverted to his pre-2017 self and before it became clear Eli was toast, those teams felt pretty confident in their guy. I mean the Giants had a shot at a number of QBs with their first pick, Jacksonville didn’t draft a QB until the 6th and Miami didn’t draft one at all. Not to mention, even if those teams were nervous about their starters, what NFL team wants to spend a 2nd (assuming they have to outbid the Saints) on a guy to breathe down the neck of their highly paid starting QB? Go look at the reports out of those camps during pre-season and tell me which one of those teams was shopping for a starting QB.

McCarron was traded for a 5th because he was a giant turd in Buffalo and showed that all preseason. He also was injured during their final preseason game. Yeah Webb was cut after the Giants drafted Lauletta. But again, they pass on Teddy. No less it was Shurmur, a guy who knows exactly how good Teddy is/isnt and how healthy he really is.

As for Tannehill....before the injury? He HASN'T played a full season since 2015. I just said that. Why would you be confident in a guy that has done NOTHING and is hurt year after year. As for Bortles....reverted to his pre-2017 self? Bortles hasnt been good since 2015. After that, he's been borderline terrible. And Eli....the Giants have been to the playoffs ONE time since 2012. He's been slowly declining and has hit rapid decline the past couple years. I'm not sure what you're even looking at here. These are 3 either terrible, declining or injury prone QBs. If a coach/GM/owner somehow believe they dont need a new QB or an insurance policy, I'd like to be smoking what they are.

And you keep mentioning a 2nd rounder. Outbid the Saints? If the Jets somehow thought the Giants or Dolphins would be better than the Saints this year, I'd also like to be smoking that. They can throw the Jets a 3rd and it would be much more value than they would be getting from the Saints which chances are, will be a late 3rd. And in turn, that's exactly what it will be. Think about it, a Saints 3rd round pick (bottom 10 in the round), compared to a Giants or Dolphins 2nd round pick (top 15 of the 2nd)?? The picks arent even close. The Giants or Dolphins could have easily landed Teddy with a 3rd. And the Bills/Cardinals/Jets/Browns could all EASILY land him with a 3rd. Those are 4 (pretty much guaranteed) "beginning of round" teams.

Teddy was a one year rental and it makes perfect sense that a team like NO’s, who correctly felt they had a SB caliber roster, would trade for Teddy as insurance at the QB spot for one year. They had a QB who was at an age most QBs are breaking down or have already broken down, and felt Teddy could come in and keep their SB hopes alive if Brees did break down. He was also a QB so good, there was zero chance he would feel threatened by Teddy being on the bench. I tell you what though, if they do manage to re-sign Teddy to take over as the QBOTF, and he plays well for them, that will really suck. Any other team and it wouldn’t bother me that much, but I would hate for the Vikings to even indirectly help that franchise.

How does Teddy going to the Saints make sense, but not the Jaguars? A team 1 game away from the SB last year, nearly beating New England, but having an absolute bum at QB. "Because they had confidence in Bortles"? How? A QB that has done nothing but get worse since 2015. Come on, you're contradicting yourself now. And to be honest, I dont see Brees retiring this year unless they win the SB. If they dont, Teddy is back on the street.

But in the end, there were plenty of teams that could have went after Teddy and didnt. We will never know those exact reasons other than obviously the knee but there is no reason to think teams didnt question his play in general. And Shurmur no less, Teddy knows the offense, he knows Teddy well, etc. and Shurmur didnt touch him and drafted a QB instead. Not a good sign

UKno1VIKING wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:39 am The argument you provided isn't relevant. Because one man does not make a team. Although QB is a crucial position, you cannot based teams wins/losses on the QB. As there are other factors. For example, you put in any QB for the Bills game, the Vikings don't win. The whole team weren't at the races, whatever the reason (not ready/underestimating the opponent/Everson problem).

From a small 9 game sample, for me this is the best QB Minnesota have seen since the '09 season.
If were going to pick through the games though, there has not been one sub-par performance this season. The worst game coming in week 1 probably. I think he missed a few deep shots in that game.
And you must have extremely high standards if you thought Cousins had a bad game against NO. He had a 75% completion percentage, for 359 yards 2 TD's and 1 INT. What did you think of Brees' performance if those are the standards you require?

If you are looking at this season, comparing the two ex-QB's to Cousins, and suggesting they would have done a better/similar job to Cousins, that's fine. It's a matter of opinion.
However, you mention their individual records for the seasons that they played (11-5, 13-3). In my opinion, if we had Kirk last season, we don't have to go to Philly for the championship game. They come to us.
Keenum had a fine season. But lets not kid ourselves. If Keenum had our defense from weeks 1 to 5 of this season, he's not making the same impact. He was serviceable, and able to complement the Defense enough to provide a winning season. Cousins had zero help from the other side of the ball for half of this season. With the same pieces on Offence.

I don't usually reply to posts i write as I can't be bothered to get into a slinging match. However, your sarcasm line at the end of your post persuaded me to.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 7:43 pm
You are contradicting yourself. We don't win with Case and Teddy, but the QB can't win all on his own? Is Cousins only responsible for wins, and never losses? Very confusing.

Brees never really had to do anything in that game, and the one time he threw it deep he was picked. Poor game for him, but his offense actually got it done. Cousin's numbers look fine, but that INT was huge, and WAS on the QB. 13 pts before garbage time against a bottom 5 defense? I know Thielen ended one drive, but what about all the other ones 3 drives in the 3rd quarter that we desperately needed a score on?

Zero help? Are they supposed to hold every team under 10 and score a couple of TDs? The defense cost us the Rams game and the GB tie, I will readily admit that. The D isn't as good this year as last, but it is statistically significantly better than in 2015 and is 6th in points per drive given up, 4th in yards. That is dang good.

I am genuinely sorry my post bothered you. I honestly don't think Cousins is a bad QB and he is ten times the passer Keenum was. I just don't think he has proven anything yet, let alone that he deserves to be talked about like an MVP.

StumpHunter wrote: ↑Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:45 pm

I think we can safely assume the reasons team’s didn’t throw big money at Teddy to make him their starter. Why are you pretending it is some big mystery or that it was anything more than team’s being afraid of the injury?

Jacksonville is an interesting one and a team I thought might make a move for Teddy if the Jets had held onto him into the season. They also had the cap space, tax code and the team talent to get Cousins if they wanted too. Instead they chose to pay Bortles less, not wanting to take on that big contract. That might end up being the wrong move in the end, but they recognized the impact Cousins’ contract would have on their team and didn’t think he was worth it. Making a trade for Teddy after just re-signing Bortles before the season even started would have immediately created a QB controversy, and the very first game Bortles looked even average, fans and players would be looking at Teddy. Not a great spot to put your starting QB in, because every QB has a bad game or two, even if they don’t suck as much as Bortles.

Shurmur had a shot at every QB but Baker in this year’s draft and waited until the 4th round to draft one to be Eli’s backup, not to compete for a starting job. Look at Eli’s contract, the two rings on his fingers and you might understand why. Not to mention, Teddy would have likely never signed with the Giants, as he wanted a chance to start.

The Saints thought so highly of Teddy, that as soon as it was apparent his knee was okay, they traded a 3rd round pick for him for insurance for the SB run as well as for the chance to make him the QBOTF behind Brees. A 3rd round pick just to have him on the bench for one season and the first crack at signing him next year. Think about that.