Game day comments: giants/vikings

[StumpHunter]

Jones had all day to sit back and let his plays develop. He was not getting the ball out quickly by my eye test. I'd love to see objective numbers on that since our impressions are so different. I'll look into it.

Top 5 D line is horribly inaccurate, IMO. In the regular season, we generated 38 sacks, which is 22nd in the league. We were 30th in points given up (25.1). We were 22nd vs. the run and 31st vs. the pass. If we had a top 5 DL, none of these rankings would be in the lower third of the league.

I would agree, however, that we are EVEN WORSE at LB and the secondary than DL. It's just that DL is so crucial in today's game. Maybe the way forward is a combo of a change in scheme and improved talent at ILB and secondary?

Agreed on just about all counts. This isn’t a top 5 DL. I would say the Hunter/Smith combo flirts with top 5 but not our interior. Tomlinson is good and Phillips seems like just a guy to me. Problem with them, they are all known run stuffing guys. Same with Tonga who is in there often.

What 5 teams have better than top 5 edge rushers, a good DT and another solid DT? SF and ?

So let’s put it this way, so many pointed out the fact that we aren’t getting pressure. That was true but can anyone possibly blame hunter or smith?

Think about it, we were one of the lowest blitzing teams in the nfl, which is a disadvantage to hunter and smith. We have two run stuffing DTs that don’t generate any sort of pass rush, which is a disadvantage to hunter and smith. We show the same look snap after snap, which is a disadvantage to smith and hunter. And in the end both of those guys had double digit sacks and were top 10 in the nfl in pressures.

This is why I think they are a top 5 duo but Ed Donatell gave these guys absolutely zero help. They were our only source of getting pressure. Sprinkle in Wonnum and Jones but smith and hunter were absolutely left on an island and were expected to light the world on fire.

Pressure totals by top 4 pass rushers:
Philly: 205
Dallas: 216
Buffalo (top 5 since Von Miller went out partway through the season): 168
SF: 207
Vikings: 204
Miami: 182
NYJ: 177
Jacksonville: 180

Top 5 this looks even more favorable for the Vikings since only Dallas had a more prolific 5th pass rusher.

Most of those teams got the majority of their pressure from the edge, but you do have a point. Ed should have blitzed more and his coverage scheme was terrible. The Donashell scheme gave up way too many quick passes so even when the pressure was getting to the QB, it was usually too late because guys were open almost immediately.

[allday1991]

Media called us out and we proved them right, I dunno if I want to hang my hat on a fluke 13-4 season. If anything this fluke season hurt us IMO, just the kind of season where management thinks this team is close when they really aren’t. There are two teams in our division trending upwards, and our future especially next year looks like crap. After looking at the teams we play next year I’ll guarantee we don’t produce the same record, I doubt we even get 10.

I wouldn't call any season a fluke. They played the games and that was the record. It's almost impossible to fluke your way through an entire season. Last year the Packers won 13 and that looked like a fluke because they got beat in round 1 at home. They couldn't score with a future HOF QB and some great offensive weapons.The media also said the Packers were coming on and would be in the playoffs. They missed that one. Every team has holes. I give our team credit they played very hard for our new HC. Did things break our way? Yes they did. But to win that many games you need some breaks. The year before Peg missed an easy FG to beat the Cards. This year he hit a record 61 yarder for a win. Was that a fluke? I guess. Maybe he will never make one that long again. No sense in even trying again. Our OL was devastated with injuries. We played a D scheme that was a complete joke. Our players didn't fit it. That hurt our team and it showed in the playoffs. Jones looked liked the best QB to play the game. The Giants aren't sold on him and declined the 5th year. We had a bunch of NT/DT on our D line. Who ever thought that would work? Hunter is out in coverage. He can't cover. I don't expect 13 wins next year. Very few teams in today's NFL have duplicate seasons. You don't see teams rip off SB wins in a row. I thought the Chiefs would be there every year. They should make it this year because they are at home again just like last year. If they don't again are they a fluke? The fluke Bills get in every year and get beat. Are they a SB team now? Or was it another fluke season. We beat them in their backyard. I'd call them a fluke also. Your record is what it is. Call it luck a fluke whatever you want. We have talent and we play hard. Donatell took all hope away with his stupid scheme and plugging players into roles that don't fit there skill set. The Giants made him pay the price. They fooled that idiot by putting the ball up and down field.

I guess we see things differently, I would say the 61 yard was a fluke, what is our kickers % made from over 50? Sure we have some talent but you’ll never convince me this is a 13 win team, next year’s record will probably prove this. If you keep the same guys around year after year and only have a 13 win season once in a blue moon is the definition to me of a fluke season, does anyone really believe this team can replicate this season next year? No one outside of die hard viking fans think so, so that says a lot. I’ve heard this argument about the defence for the last 3 years, to many injuries bad play calls etc. I’m starting to think our “talent” on defence isn’t as special as the fan base thinks it is.

[Pondering Her Percy]

What 5 teams have better than top 5 edge rushers, a good DT and another solid DT? SF and ?

Well I think this is part of the problem. On paper, this could be a top 5 DL yes. But I dont believe it performed like one. But again, I dont think that's necessarily due to lack of talent. I think that's due to a god awful scheme. I'm guessing sack numbers would be up if we tightened up coverage and didnt play 10 yards off. But the sack numbers for Smith and Hunter. Our DTs are solid players but they hardly ever lay a finger on a QB. Once in a while you'll see a burst from Tomlinson but that's about it. I think our lack of rush in the middle puts so much pressure on Hunter and Smith.

But again, this all goes into how off we play our coverage and how little we blitz or show opposing teams different looks. It's honestly the most vanilla defense I've ever seen.

Pressure totals by top 4 pass rushers:
Philly: 205
Dallas: 216
Buffalo (top 5 since Von Miller went out partway through the season): 168
SF: 207
Vikings: 204
Miami: 182
NYJ: 177
Jacksonville: 180

Top 5 this looks even more favorable for the Vikings since only Dallas had a more prolific 5th pass rusher.

Most of those teams got the majority of their pressure from the edge, but you do have a point. Ed should have blitzed more and his coverage scheme was terrible. The Donashell scheme gave up way too many quick passes so even when the pressure was getting to the QB, it was usually too late because guys were open almost immediately.

Agreed. The amount of quick slants and drag routes given up were alarming. The Giants did it the entire first game and we made zero adjustments and allowed them to do it this entire game as well. Jones wasnt even stretching the field. He was throwing short to mid range passes that went for 30 yards. The Giants would send a few guys deep which would pull all our coverage downfield and there were always one or two guys underneath with nothing but space in front of them. It was extremely frustrating to watch because even as an armchair fan, you know what needs to be done and Donatell just wasnt doing it.

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

I guess we see things differently, I would say the 61 yard was a fluke, what is our kickers % made from over 50? Sure we have some talent but you’ll never convince me this is a 13 win team, next year’s record will probably prove this. If you keep the same guys around year after year and only have a 13 win season once in a blue moon is the definition to me of a fluke season, does anyone really believe this team can replicate this season next year? No one outside of die hard viking fans think so, so that says a lot. I’ve heard this argument about the defence for the last 3 years, to many injuries bad play calls etc. I’m starting to think our “talent” on defence isn’t as special as the fan base thinks it is.

Why will next team's record prove anything about this year? Different year, different team.

Joseph has a job to do. Kick XP's and FG's. He kicked a 61 yarder. He did his job. How is that a fluke? Sometimes you miss some, sometimes you make some. He made that one. This whole "luck" and"fluke" talk is nonsense. There are multiple plays in every game that can go either way. Most of the time all you have to do is change one play and the other team wins.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I’m starting to think our “talent” on defense isn’t as special as the fan base thinks it is.

Ehhh I'm not sure about that. Again, I think it was 100% more scheme being a problem than it was talent. If you look at everyone that played on defense throughout the year this is the way I see it.....


Great/good/solid contributors throughout the year:
Danielle Hunter (Starter)
Zadarius Smith (Starter)
Patrick Jones
Dalvin Tomlinson (Starter)
Harrison Phillips (Starter)
Khyiris Tonga
Brian Asamoah
Patrick Peterson (Starter)
Duke Shelley (Starter)
Harrison Smith (Starter)
Josh Metellus


Below average/declining/question marks:
DJ Wonnum
Ross Blacklock
Jonathan Bullard
James Lynch
Esezi Otomewo
Eric Kendricks (Starter)
Jordan Hicks (Starter)
Akayleb Evans ??
Andrew Booth ??
Chandon Sullivan (Starter)
Cam Bynum (Starter)
Lewis Cine ??

One guy I cant figure out:
Cam Dantzler


Point here is if you take the guys up in the "good" column and put them all on a bare bones defense, there's no way that defense is the worst defense in the NFL or the 32nd least talented defense. That's my problem with all of this and Donatell. I'm not going to put blinders on about which starters are good and bad. I know some might question Hitman but he's similar to Patrick Peterson where he's still going to make plays for you just out of instincts and being a savvy vet even though he's getting older. I still think he's very valuable to this team although I do believe we are deep at safety. I love Eric Kendricks but I also know that Kendricks' time is done.

No doubt there IS talent there. No matter what the fans think. Definitely some holes but definitely some talent. So I dont buy Donatell getting a pass due to lack of talent on defense. He didnt put his players in a position to succeed and it's sad because like I said, there was talent there. He just drastically misused it.

[allday1991]

I guess we see things differently, I would say the 61 yard was a fluke, what is our kickers % made from over 50? Sure we have some talent but you’ll never convince me this is a 13 win team, next year’s record will probably prove this. If you keep the same guys around year after year and only have a 13 win season once in a blue moon is the definition to me of a fluke season, does anyone really believe this team can replicate this season next year? No one outside of die hard viking fans think so, so that says a lot. I’ve heard this argument about the defence for the last 3 years, to many injuries bad play calls etc. I’m starting to think our “talent” on defence isn’t as special as the fan base thinks it is.

Why will next team's record prove anything about this year? Different year, different team.

Joseph has a job to do. Kick XP's and FG's. He kicked a 61 yarder. He did his job. How is that a fluke? Sometimes you miss some, sometimes you make some. He made that one. This whole "luck" and"fluke" talk is nonsense. There are multiple plays in every game that can go either way. Most of the time all you have to do is change one play and the other team wins.

It’s proves consistency which proves something isn’t a fluke, this is simple science. If you run something and the majority of the time it fails can you really call it a success when it doesn’t? Joseph was basically non existent on 50 yard field goals but him hitting a 61 isn’t luck? I don’t understand. Bears had 7 games by one score this year, so the bears aren’t bad just flukes? We can agree to disagree however as a 13 win team the media picked a 9-8 giants team over us and Vegas had us as the 9th ranked team behind the jags and tied with a Lamar-less ravens, there is a reason for this whether you decide to believe it or not.

[allday1991]

I’m starting to think our “talent” on defense isn’t as special as the fan base thinks it is.

Ehhh I'm not sure about that. Again, I think it was 100% more scheme being a problem than it was talent. If you look at everyone that played on defense throughout the year this is the way I see it.....


Great/good/solid contributors throughout the year:
Danielle Hunter (Starter)
Zadarius Smith (Starter)
Patrick Jones
Dalvin Tomlinson (Starter)
Harrison Phillips (Starter)
Khyiris Tonga
Brian Asamoah
Patrick Peterson (Starter)
Duke Shelley (Starter)
Harrison Smith (Starter)
Josh Metellus


Below average/declining/question marks:
DJ Wonnum
Ross Blacklock
Jonathan Bullard
James Lynch
Esezi Otomewo
Eric Kendricks (Starter)
Jordan Hicks (Starter)
Akayleb Evans ??
Andrew Booth ??
Chandon Sullivan (Starter)
Cam Bynum (Starter)
Lewis Cine ??

One guy I cant figure out:
Cam Dantzler


Point here is if you take the guys up in the "good" column and put them all on a bare bones defense, there's no way that defense is the worst defense in the NFL or the 32nd least talented defense. That's my problem with all of this and Donatell. I'm not going to put blinders on about which starters are good and bad. I know some might question Hitman but he's similar to Patrick Peterson where he's still going to make plays for you just out of instincts and being a savvy vet even though he's getting older. I still think he's very valuable to this team although I do believe we are deep at safety. I love Eric Kendricks but I also know that Kendricks' time is done.

No doubt there IS talent there. No matter what the fans think. Definitely some holes but definitely some talent. So I dont buy Donatell getting a pass due to lack of talent on defense. He didnt put his players in a position to succeed and it's sad because like I said, there was talent there. He just drastically misused it.

I’m not 100% sure tbh, zimmers defence fell apart after a few injuries and this year we never got it going. If coaching was enough to take mid of the pack defence to last and not one other coach, head coach gm or anybody noticed this or tried to correct it, we have a much bigger problem than just talent.

[IIsweet]

Ehhh I'm not sure about that. Again, I think it was 100% more scheme being a problem than it was talent. If you look at everyone that played on defense throughout the year this is the way I see it.....


Great/good/solid contributors throughout the year:
Danielle Hunter (Starter)
Zadarius Smith (Starter)
Patrick Jones
Dalvin Tomlinson (Starter)
Harrison Phillips (Starter)
Khyiris Tonga
Brian Asamoah
Patrick Peterson (Starter)
Duke Shelley (Starter)
Harrison Smith (Starter)
Josh Metellus


Below average/declining/question marks:
DJ Wonnum
Ross Blacklock
Jonathan Bullard
James Lynch
Esezi Otomewo
Eric Kendricks (Starter)
Jordan Hicks (Starter)
Akayleb Evans ??
Andrew Booth ??
Chandon Sullivan (Starter)
Cam Bynum (Starter)
Lewis Cine ??

One guy I cant figure out:
Cam Dantzler


Point here is if you take the guys up in the "good" column and put them all on a bare bones defense, there's no way that defense is the worst defense in the NFL or the 32nd least talented defense. That's my problem with all of this and Donatell. I'm not going to put blinders on about which starters are good and bad. I know some might question Hitman but he's similar to Patrick Peterson where he's still going to make plays for you just out of instincts and being a savvy vet even though he's getting older. I still think he's very valuable to this team although I do believe we are deep at safety. I love Eric Kendricks but I also know that Kendricks' time is done.

No doubt there IS talent there. No matter what the fans think. Definitely some holes but definitely some talent. So I dont buy Donatell getting a pass due to lack of talent on defense. He didnt put his players in a position to succeed and it's sad because like I said, there was talent there. He just drastically misused it.

I’m not 100% sure tbh, zimmers defence fell apart after a few injuries and this year we never got it going. If coaching was enough to take mid of the pack defence to last and not one other coach, head coach gm or anybody noticed this or tried to correct it, we have a much bigger problem than just talent.

I think it is talent and it should read like the following:
Great Players
Hunter (starter)

Developing players
Asamoah
Jones
Tonga... I really like his upside and motor
Otomewo... rookie 3-4 DE needs reps... TBD
Evans... showed flashes before injuries
Booth... injured rookie w high ceiling
Cine... injured rookie w high ceiling

Declining players
Z Smith (starter)
H Smith (starter)
Kendricks (starter)
Hicks (starter)
Petersen (starter)

Solid players
Phillips (starter)
Tomlinson (starter)

Average Players
Shelley (starter)
Metellus
Bynum (starter)
Sullivan (starter)
Wonnum
Blacklock
Lynch
Bullard

[Pep2Moss]

Worst case scenario with this talent is a middle of the road defense.

the axe should fall on the coaching. It was abysmal.

[Pondering Her Percy]

Worst case scenario with this talent is a middle of the road defense.

the axe should fall on the coaching. It was abysmal.

100% agree

[VikeFanInEagleLand]

Why will next team's record prove anything about this year? Different year, different team.

Joseph has a job to do. Kick XP's and FG's. He kicked a 61 yarder. He did his job. How is that a fluke? Sometimes you miss some, sometimes you make some. He made that one. This whole "luck" and"fluke" talk is nonsense. There are multiple plays in every game that can go either way. Most of the time all you have to do is change one play and the other team wins.

It’s proves consistency which proves something isn’t a fluke, this is simple science. If you run something and the majority of the time it fails can you really call it a success when it doesn’t? Joseph was basically non existent on 50 yard field goals but him hitting a 61 isn’t luck? I don’t understand. Bears had 7 games by one score this year, so the bears aren’t bad just flukes? We can agree to disagree however as a 13 win team the media picked a 9-8 giants team over us and Vegas had us as the 9th ranked team behind the jags and tied with a Lamar-less ravens, there is a reason for this whether you decide to believe it or not.

According to your own definition the, the Vikings won 13 out 17 games which means it wasn't a fluke. Not enough data for you? Then including last year, they are 21-13..still not a fluke. Heck, last four years they are 38-27...still not a fluke. Of course, a reasonable person will tell you that a team from 4 years ago, or even last years team has no bearing on their success or failure this year. Just as next year's team will prove nothing regarding this year's team.

As far as Joseph goes, ok. If you want to say that he was 4 for 10 on FG's over 50 yards which proves the 61 yard FG was a fluke, I'll respect your view. My opinion isn't as rigorous. Maybe if he had never made one over 50 yards, or made one, I'd call it a fluke.

[Pondering Her Percy]

I’m not 100% sure tbh, zimmers defence fell apart after a few injuries and this year we never got it going. If coaching was enough to take mid of the pack defence to last and not one other coach, head coach gm or anybody noticed this or tried to correct it, we have a much bigger problem than just talent.

I think it is talent and it should read like the following:
Great Players
Hunter (starter)

Developing players
Asamoah
Jones
Tonga... I really like his upside and motor
Otomewo... rookie 3-4 DE needs reps... TBD
Evans... showed flashes before injuries
Booth... injured rookie w high ceiling
Cine... injured rookie w high ceiling

Declining players
Z Smith (starter)
H Smith (starter)
Kendricks (starter)
Hicks (starter)
Petersen (starter)

Solid players
Phillips (starter)
Tomlinson (starter)

Average Players
Shelley (starter)
Metellus
Bynum (starter)
Sullivan (starter)
Wonnum
Blacklock
Lynch
Bullard

I dont think you're wrong by any means but one thing I want to point out as well, I feel like the "declining players" section is looked at in a negative way by some. What I mean by that is, we are all aware Harrison Smith isnt peak/prime Harrison Smith anymore. And even though there is a decline there, it's a much slower decline than most and he still brings an extreme amount of value to this team from a leadership standpoint, instincts, etc.

This is why I had that group of Peterson, Zadarius, Harry, Kendricks and Hicks separated in mine. Because I think Kendricks is cooked as well as Hicks. That's a position we need more speed at and we just dont have it with either of those guys. However, with Patrick Peterson, I think he actually did the opposite of decline this year. He was a top 10 corner in this league for a good portion of this season and the stats prove it. Plus he is another one that brings that same type of veteran leadership and instincts like Harry. Zadarius I had a hard time figuring out. I think his injury set him back a bit. He looked like peak Zadarius early and then disappeared. But it's so hard to tell in this lousy scheme we run.

In the end, I still think Zadarius, Harry and Peterson still have huge value to this team. I think Kendricks and Hicks are good as gone.

[IIsweet]

PHP, I agree totally. I feel that PP can still play and I would like to resign him.
I think he is still very good, but definitely not the Sauce Gardner league anymore.
I could see bringing Harrison back on a restructured contract because he cannot perform to that salary. I would cut him after June 1, save the $15.2 million and then resign him to a veteran and team friendly contract. I would do the same with Zadarius. Cut Post June1, $15.3 m in Cap Savings, and then resign to a team and veteran friendly contract.

[allday1991]

It’s proves consistency which proves something isn’t a fluke, this is simple science. If you run something and the majority of the time it fails can you really call it a success when it doesn’t? Joseph was basically non existent on 50 yard field goals but him hitting a 61 isn’t luck? I don’t understand. Bears had 7 games by one score this year, so the bears aren’t bad just flukes? We can agree to disagree however as a 13 win team the media picked a 9-8 giants team over us and Vegas had us as the 9th ranked team behind the jags and tied with a Lamar-less ravens, there is a reason for this whether you decide to believe it or not.

According to your own definition the, the Vikings won 13 out 17 games which means it wasn't a fluke. Not enough data for you? Then including last year, they are 21-13..still not a fluke. Heck, last four years they are 38-27...still not a fluke. Of course, a reasonable person will tell you that a team from 4 years ago, or even last years team has no bearing on their success or failure this year. Just as next year's team will prove nothing regarding this year's team.

If you keep the same team from last year the year before is a great example to go by. From that data I would assume we are a .500 team that had one good year. I’ll leave it this, you’ll have a hard time convincing me Vegas is that wrong, they basically run off data a probability of something happen and again they had us lower than 9-8 team and tied with a team missing there superstar qb to win out, that should tell you everything you need to know about our probability to win which is directly related to was makes something a “fluke”. Vegas and gambling works and makes the people running it money cause they’re right the majority of the time. Out of everyone I’ve talked football with this season only viking fans thought we were legit, this also tells me a lot. By all means if you’re happy with that by all means ride with it, I’m still sour about it.

[chicagopurple]

If you look at teams that had good long winning streaks, contended for a long time, they were NOT nostalgic regarding keeping aging players. Look at New England over the years. They found good young talent, but once they reached the end of initial contracts and were due to balloon to a bloated veteran contract, they traded those guys for high draft picks and moved on. Losing teams keep over priced "fan Favorites" because they know those players sell tickets even though the team will be less likely to make it to a championship. I saw this for 4 decades in the case of Chicago Cubs......sentimentality doesnt win anything but it makes money for ownership. Harrison shold have been traded when we could have profited but Spielman would have wasted the picks anyways. The worst thing you can do is hold em for too long, then have them move on and get nothing for them.