Cook or Mattison?

[IIsweet]

I personally love Levis. I brought him up during last football season and a few of my buddies were like "who?!" lol

But yeah I've liked him for a long time and at Kentucky, he's not surrounded by 10+ NFL prospects that can help carry his team. I actually think that will help him in the NFL.

I like Levis also. The draft is a great part of football and brings up some good posts. We should always be looking for a QB. IMO KOC will look for a guy that can throw a football. He don't care about QB rushing yards and I don't either. If we picked both those guys it wouldn't bother me at all. We haven't had a young guy in the hole for a long time. That's a bad why to run a team. A guy like McKee could fall in the draft. Levis could also. They aren't the sexy picks.

I beg to differ. Levis is a very sexy pick. Realistically a top 5-10 pick. He is arguably one of the top 3 QBs in this draft and that means he goes high, some suggest that he could be #1. Wait til his numbers come out. Levis lost his best WR and OC to NFL after 2021. He also features the combination of arm talent, size (6-foot-3, 232 pounds) and mobility.

[CharVike]

I like Levis also. The draft is a great part of football and brings up some good posts. We should always be looking for a QB. IMO KOC will look for a guy that can throw a football. He don't care about QB rushing yards and I don't either. If we picked both those guys it wouldn't bother me at all. We haven't had a young guy in the hole for a long time. That's a bad why to run a team. A guy like McKee could fall in the draft. Levis could also. They aren't the sexy picks.

I beg to differ. Levis is a very sexy pick. Realistically a top 5-10 pick. He is arguably one of the top 3 QBs in this draft and that means he goes high, some suggest that he could be #1. Wait til his numbers come out. Levis lost his best WR and OC to NFL after 2021. He also features the combination of arm talent, size (6-foot-3, 232 pounds) and mobility.

What I meant by sexy is that currently he's not on the radar like a Bryce Young. Young jumps out but the guy is a small person and I think he will get killed at the pro level. I don't see how he can hold up.

[VikingLord]

I personally love Levis. I brought him up during last football season and a few of my buddies were like "who?!" lol

But yeah I've liked him for a long time and at Kentucky, he's not surrounded by 10+ NFL prospects that can help carry his team. I actually think that will help him in the NFL.

I like Levis also. The draft is a great part of football and brings up some good posts. We should always be looking for a QB. IMO KOC will look for a guy that can throw a football. He don't care about QB rushing yards and I don't either. If we picked both those guys it wouldn't bother me at all. We haven't had a young guy in the hole for a long time. That's a bad why to run a team. A guy like McKee could fall in the draft. Levis could also. They aren't the sexy picks.

Levis will end up going a lot higher than he probably should, as will McKee. The NFL is such a QB-hungry machine overall that QB prospects are almost always pushed well up boards based more on the position they play and their physical attributes than what they've actually put on tape during their college careers.

If you look at the actual production of both Levis and McKee during their college careers and what each put on tape you come away underwhelmed. If you just look at them physically, their relative arm strength and potential based on physical attributes, you might be more impressed.

Levis looks to me like another Akili Smith, while McKee looks like a bigger Christian Ponder. And I'm almost certain both will evaluate well during the pre-draft process and be taken off the board well before the Vikings get to pick in the 1st.

[CharVike]

I like Levis also. The draft is a great part of football and brings up some good posts. We should always be looking for a QB. IMO KOC will look for a guy that can throw a football. He don't care about QB rushing yards and I don't either. If we picked both those guys it wouldn't bother me at all. We haven't had a young guy in the hole for a long time. That's a bad why to run a team. A guy like McKee could fall in the draft. Levis could also. They aren't the sexy picks.

Levis will end up going a lot higher than he probably should, as will McKee. The NFL is such a QB-hungry machine overall that QB prospects are almost always pushed well up boards based more on the position they play and their physical attributes than what they've actually put on tape during their college careers.

If you look at the actual production of both Levis and McKee during their college careers and what each put on tape you come away underwhelmed. If you just look at them physically, their relative arm strength and potential based on physical attributes, you might be more impressed.

Levis looks to me like another Akili Smith, while McKee looks like a bigger Christian Ponder. And I'm almost certain both will evaluate well during the pre-draft process and be taken off the board well before the Vikings get to pick in the 1st.

You could be right but you never know with the draft. There are plenty of teams out there that want a dual threat guy. Those 2 don't fit that. We certainly won't trade up for either which is ok because we aren't in position for that and it wouldn't shock me if they fell.
Some team might go after Derek Carr instead of picking either of those 2. Maybe Carolina. Lamar could be available for the dual threat teams and he's a proven commodity. Bryce Young appears to be the 1st overall guy. Some team will need to trade up. IMO I don't know how a 180 ILB guy can hold up. The Pack might deal Love or Rodgers. If the 49ers win the SB with their new guy Trey Lance could be available. He might be available without the SB. The 49ers always deal and could use picks. Crazy things happen at the QB position especially over the last few seasons. It's going to be crazy.

[J. Kapp 11]

I feel that there is a common feeling among most. It is hard to say 2% when someone else feels 4% should be designated to RB room. In the scheme of $200million, 4-8 million is not a lot, but it can be very significant. If allowing up to $8 mil, you can have a #1 type RB with rookie contract players. If working with the $4m number, then you will have a committee type of backfield.
For example, CJ Ham does well for us, but his salary is $3mil. Is he overpaid? Probably.
I understand the idea of only committing specific % of salary cap to positions, but I do feel it depends on the makeup of your team and what type of offense you are trying to run

Just to be clear, I didn't say 2% for the running back room. I said 2% for any one running back.

That said, the The Minnesota Vikings have the 6th-highest RB payroll in the NFL at more than $16 million. That's 8% of the total cap. Yet they run the ball on just 35.9% of their plays, third-lowest rate in the NFL. It makes no sense. Do we honestly believe Kevin O'Connell will suddenly become a coach with a run-heavy offense?

As for Ham, I'd say he is unfortunately overpaid. Once again, I base that on KOC's offense. The Vikings run 11 personnel more than any team in the league. Ham finished with 169 total snaps, less than 10 per game.

Your point is a good one. The Vikings should pay the running back room relative to the importance of running backs in the total scheme of things.

[J. Kapp 11]

I will say it again.

With the current salary cap, I would not divest more than 2% of the cap to a running back. With a $200 million cap, that’s $4 million.

That is NOT to say I’m somehow anti-Cook. I’m a huge fan, not only of his production but of his leadership. He’s been a great Viking. And he HAS made some huge plays this year for the Vikings. Long, game-changing touchdowns against Miami, Buffalo and Indy come to mind.

At $4 million, Cook’s production is a great value. But at $11.9 million (his cap hit this year) it’s not. And at $14.1 million for next year, it’s just plain out of whack.

This is the problem with rookie-scale contracts. It rewards players for past performance. And that is NOT how you run a successful business. At successful companies, people don’t get promoted because of what they’ve done in the past. They get promoted for what you believe they CAN do in the future. If you want to reward somebody for doing a great job, you bonus them after the fact.

In the NFL, it’s backwards. I suppose it’s backwards in all sports, but it’s amplified in the NFL because of how short careers are. Steph Curry is in his 15th year, averaging 30. How many 15-year NFL vets are there?

Guy comes in the league in a rookie scale. He plays out of his mind. Like AP his rookie season. Sets the league on fire. So what happens? You pay him bupkus for 3 more years because you can. Now when it’s time to extend him, he’s already on the decline if he’s a running back. So you either pay him based on what he’s already done, even though the chances of him doing it again are slim — and they’re especially slim 3 years down the road at the end of his new deal. Or you let him walk.

The Vikings loved Cook. So they gave him a big new deal. And now he’s declining, right when the team is in line to pay him the most.

That’s why I’d never pay a running back more than 2% of the cap. It’s cruel, but it’s business.

And for the record, inside (on-ball) linebackers are in the same category. They’re guys with short shelf lives, and they don’t impact the modern NFL as much as corners or edge rushers. They wouldn’t get huge contracts either if I were running the team. Neither would safeties because unless you’ve got Ed Reed back there, you can replace them fairly easily compared to other positions.

Running back, inside linebacker and safety. The 3 positions I wouldn’t give huge contracts. Yet what are the Vikings doing? Cook at $11.9 million, Kendricks at $13.5 million, and Harrison Smith at $19.2 million next year with more than $11 million in dead cap.

That said, I don’t think I’d sign Mattison either. He’s going to see himself as a starter, and he’s going to want to get paid. And if I’m GM, I don’t overpay running backs.

When you pay one position, it means less money to pay another. So a better question might be Cook, Mattison, or a legit deep threat opposite Justin Jefferson? Pick one.

Some of you, as usual, will crucify me for this take. That’s fine. But if you detach yourself emotionally from the individual players, if you leave the names out, you’ll see that I’m right. Pay your quarterback. Pay tackles. Pay edge rushers. Pay lockdown corners. Not running backs.

I will once again go on record that I think your 4M max for Cook is every bit as out of whack as his $14.1 Million contract for next year. I can leave the names out and I still don't see that your right. I see that you're wrong. If you would place a more reasonable number like $8M I wouldn't find your stance laughable, but at $4M that's how I see it.

I figured you'd come out of the woodwork on this sooner or later.

Not that I feel I have to prove anything to you, since I've proven this point over and over with stats and numbers. But I'm a decent guy, so I'll go ahead and share some info from another post, even though I'm fairly certain you'll ignore it. Don't care. You're just as wrong now as you were earlier. Here are even more reasons why.

The Minnesota Vikings run the ball 35.9% of the time, third lowest-rate in the NFL. Yet they have the 6th-highest running back payroll in the NFL at $16 million, which is TWICE the league average. Dalvin Cook collects by far the biggest share of that $16 million, and you think he's worth it because he's a threat to take it to the house. But the fact is that he has three of those explosive plays ALL SEASON. Yes, they were key to victories, but even if you take away those three plays and turn those wins into losses, the Vikings still win the division and get the #3 seed. If the Vikings are going to be a passing team under KOC, then why in the world should they allocate so much money to running backs?

But wait. It gets better.

They're also paying CJ Ham $3 million — and he's been on the field for all of 169 snaps, less than 10 per game. I love the Hammer, but that's nonsense.

Again, the league average for a running back room is $8 million. So my figure of $4 million to a single running back is anything but laughable. In fact, it's perfectly in line.

Finally, do you know who the 4 teams who pay the most in RB salary are? Green Bay, Tennessee, New Orleans and Cleveland. Four teams watching the playoffs on TV. Other teams who pay RBs more than league average include Denver, Arizona, Atlanta, Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay (in the playoffs with an 8-9 record). I rest my case.

All this points back to the Zimmer/Spielman era. Zimmer emphasized defense and the running game, even though his defense stunk and the Vikings found themselves passing more than he ever wanted. He hung on to aging veterans on defense and paid his running backs a mint. Kwesi and KOC inherited a mess, but they're smart guys. So you can count on them getting rid of most or all of the bad contracts. Mark it down ... Dalvin Cook will be one of them.

I'll be sure to bring this post up when it happens.

[IIsweet]

Kapp, I am on board with you.

[CharVike]

I feel that there is a common feeling among most. It is hard to say 2% when someone else feels 4% should be designated to RB room. In the scheme of $200million, 4-8 million is not a lot, but it can be very significant. If allowing up to $8 mil, you can have a #1 type RB with rookie contract players. If working with the $4m number, then you will have a committee type of backfield.
For example, CJ Ham does well for us, but his salary is $3mil. Is he overpaid? Probably.
I understand the idea of only committing specific % of salary cap to positions, but I do feel it depends on the makeup of your team and what type of offense you are trying to run

Just to be clear, I didn't say 2% for the running back room. I said 2% for any one running back.

That said, the The Minnesota Vikings have the 6th-highest RB payroll in the NFL at more than $16 million. That's 8% of the total cap. Yet they run the ball on just 35.9% of their plays, third-lowest rate in the NFL. It makes no sense. Do we honestly believe Kevin O'Connell will suddenly become a coach with a run-heavy offense?

As for Ham, I'd say he is unfortunately overpaid. Once again, I base that on KOC's offense. The Vikings run 11 personnel more than any team in the league. Ham finished with 169 total snaps, less than 10 per game.

Your point is a good one. The Vikings should pay the running back room relative to the importance of running backs in the total scheme of things.

Thank you for the update. I have no patience but KOC is stuck with some bodies that probably don't fit what he will do. It's only year one. I wanted to hear about the 11 personnel usage and you provided that. If people remember Matti was on the trading block early in the season. Obviously not much was offered. If Cook goes he goes it's no big deal. What is a big deal is our OL even our starting 5. Is that the 5 that can get us into the top 10? Use a trade to upgrade. Don't just draft and hope. That sucks. We also need WR help. We need a better No 2 and some speed. With JJ number 2 should shine.

[IIsweet]

I am just looking forward to seeing how KAM and KOC attack the roster in the off-season. I, and millions would love to continue to see our favorite players out there in Thielen, Cook, Harrison, EK, etc. but it is time for them to take on lesser roles, less $, or move on. I think KAM is a business man and will do so. Very likeable, but still running a business. KOC is such a players coach, I expect him to get emotional but be excited about the changes. Continuing the competitive rebuild. Zadarius and Kendricks can be let go saving $23m+. Post June 1cuts of Cook, Thielen, Harrison cuts $40m.
Problem is that this does not help us going into next season unless we get replacements. I think we do already with Chandler, Nailor, Cine,
Mattison is a FA and I would expect him to test the waters, he may go elsewhere. I would like to see a Cook trade because as Kapp pointed out, he is way too expensive for the production. A draft pick would be outstanding, or a restructuring of his contract.

[J. Kapp 11]

After careful consideration, I have amended my “most I’d pay a running back” position.

Here’s where I’ve landed. I would not allocate more than 4% of the salary cap to my RUNNING BACK ROOM. With a $200 million cap, that’s $8 million total.

Now, that necessarily places limitations on how much you pay one guy. If you keep 4 running backs, and each of them must make at least the league minimum of $720,000, then that means the most you can pay one guy is $5.8 million. If you keep 3 running backs (I wouldn’t) then you could pay $6.5 million to a single guy.

But … if you roster a guy like CJ Ham at $3 million, then only about $3.6 million would be available to the highest-paid guy.

Why do I fall on 4%? Because that is league average. The point being, I would not allocate more than league average to a non-premium position like running back.

That’s my position. Obviously if you take over a franchise that is already committed to $11 million for its top running back, than it doesn’t work. But it’s what I would work toward if I were a GM.

Anyone agree?

[CharVike]

After careful consideration, I have amended my “most I’d pay a running back” position.

Here’s where I’ve landed. I would not allocate more than 4% of the salary cap to my RUNNING BACK ROOM. With a $200 million cap, that’s $8 million total.

Now, that necessarily places limitations on how much you pay one guy. If you keep 4 running backs, and each of them must make at least the league minimum of $720,000, then that means the most you can pay one guy is $5.8 million. If you keep 3 running backs (I wouldn’t) then you could pay $6.5 million to a single guy.

But … if you roster a guy like CJ Ham at $3 million, then only about $3.6 million would be available to the highest-paid guy.

Why do I fall on 4%? Because that is league average. The point being, I would not allocate more than league average to a non-premium position like running back.

That’s my position. Obviously if you take over a franchise that is already committed to $11 million for its top running back, than it doesn’t work. But it’s what I would work toward if I were a GM.

Anyone agree?

I agree. We all know Cook has had a good career with us and is a leader but that contract was a mistake for our current organization. As you pointed out his play is declining and you showed the drop off of big plays. I'm sure they will do something. Getting Chandler more involved is probably what they would like to do.

[IIsweet]

I would like to agree. I just struggle with the idea of a specific %. I would not go all in on a 2nd contract RB. Hence, I would probably continue to draft a RB nearly every other year. Create a room of fresh legs.
Just really depends on the offense you are running.

[Cliff]

Cook would be a lot more valuable to the team if he were involved more in the passing game. I thought that was a strong suit of his but his production is pretty low.

[J. Kapp 11]

I would like to agree. I just struggle with the idea of a specific %. I would not go all in on a 2nd contract RB. Hence, I would probably continue to draft a RB nearly every other year. Create a room of fresh legs.
Just really depends on the offense you are running.

Totally fair.

I'm just sorta playing GM here. When I see teams like Buffalo at 2.7%, Kansas City and Detroit at 2%, and Philly at less than 1% of the cap spent on running backs and I'm not surprised that those are some of the best offenses in the NFL. Meanwhile there the Vikings are at 8%. We're spending 4 times as much as the best offenses in the league, yet we have holes on the O-line and our WR2 is aging. Not that we WOULD have spent on OBJ, but even if we'd have wanted to, we couldn't.

And again, it's not just at running back. We allocate $17 million to inside linebackers, which is 70% above league average. Another $23 million goes to safeties, nearly double the league average of $13 million. Yet at wide receiver, we're exactly at league average with $20 million in cap ... and we haven't even paid JJ yet!

Our cap allocation is screwed up. I'm hoping and trusting that Kwesi begins to fix it this offseason.

[IIsweet]

Yep Kapp, you are spot on.
Kwesi has to make the tough and probably unpopular decisions on Thielen, Harrison, and Smith. I am expecting an extension with Cousins which also saves $23 mil.
Just needs to happen. I can see them also giving Cook an extension and lowering his cap number significantly. He still has some gas in the tank.